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-- Our betrayal
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Originally posted by denys envy wait wait. the real story here is that this is the first thread in a long time that slylee has posted in without the mention of her boyfriend. that deserves some plaudit i think.

You are mistaken:

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Originally posted by Slylee do you feel that people with mental illnesses are less or more evolved?

There you have it, ladies and Gentlemen.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You are mistaken: There you have it, ladies and Gentlemen.

i see what you did there. 0_o

Being gay is not a mental illness.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Did you ever happen to read Remarque's All Quiet On The Western Front? Do you remember the part where they are sitting in the trenches at night, shooting at the dim flickering of cigarettes in the distance as though it were some sort of game? They were shooting at lights because it was easier than shooting at people - because it was far easier to kill in this way since there was practically no humanity involved. "Peace time" is the declaration of nations and documents, not battlefields.

i think thats one of many classics that i dodged during my short time on this planet.

you have to remember though that during the period in which you speak, the vast majority of those fighting were conscripts (unless im mistaken). conscipts are a far cry from the professional outfits modern societies mobilise today.

incidentally, did you watch any generation kill? HBO series based on the book from the journalist who travelled with the marines making the first incursions into iraq in 03. good show, thought about you during it actually.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that's not a generalisation. most of the people that think that a 'well-regulated militia' (lol) has some role against tyranny, are *shock horror* citizens of the united states of america.

Actually, I think one Swedish guy argued for this once... I think he was debating you, PKC, do you remember him?

But, yeah, this kind of idea seems to be more popular among them, although I'd be more cautious before making any kind of generalisation.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie

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Originally posted by Lira Actually, I think one Swedish guy argued for this once... I think he was debating you, PKC, do you remember him? But, yeah, this kind of idea seems to be more popular among them, although I'd be more cautious before making any kind of generalisation.

That generalization was utterly ignorant. I still have all my teeth to grind thank you very much.

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Originally posted by Lira Actually, I think one Swedish guy argued for this once... I think he was debating you, PKC, do you remember him? But, yeah, this kind of idea seems to be more popular among them, although I'd be more cautious before making any kind of generalisation.

ok then. virtually every person that i have met on the intertubes that has advocated a well-regulated militia being necessary for a secure and free state has been american, asides from one random dude in sweden.

hows that?

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Originally posted by Fpcookie fuck, you are so stupid.

and you are?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I disagree... I don't think we have a culture that fears the use of guns at all - in some odd twist guns have become synonymous with machismo and bravery. Clint Eastwood and Jack Bauer are heroes on tv because of their courage in using firearms. Gangs inculcate honor and pride in drive-by shootings. If anything, we live in a culture that doesn't fear guns enough. Parents keep loaded weapons in the closet with the safeties off in fear of a burglar... the way we use, celebrate, and proliferate guns throughout our society is anathema to any sort of fear (which, I might add, would be based on an accurate appraisal of what guns really represent - as you said, an unnatural and easy extension of human power).

I completely agree. It's an awkward dynamic though - people both fear and respect weapons because they represent empowerment in the "right" hands and terror in the "wrong" hands. People's susceptibility to this sort of polarity lends itself both ways - they both elevate homegrown heroes who would murder in the name of their personal sense of justice while vilifying that same power in the hands of foreigners or untrusted neighbours invading their streets. Just as you said - they will keep a loaded weapon next to their bed at night, for fear that a robber will come to their house with a weapon all the while glorifying gun violence in the media and on television when it either suits their particular sensibilities or creates a fascination of fiction.

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Your point about Africa is interesting - child soldiers represent a concrete example of how drastic the danger of guns really are. A nine year old boy can lift a five pound AK-47 and kill without burning more than a few calories. In terms of physical exertion, killing a man with a gun is not all that different from simply wishing him dead - all you have to do is raise your arm and move your finger two centimeters. That kind of power over fellow man is completely new in human society. Before the entree of guns into mainstream society, death required some premeditation and a little elbow grease. The proliferation of guns throughout society without fear shows the importance of trust - at any given moment a dozen permit-carrying citizens could put an end to your existence without breaking a sweat.

I think you've explained my point far better and more succinctly than I could have.

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Originally posted by Zild That generalization was utterly ignorant. I still have all my teeth to grind thank you very much.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ok then. virtually every person that i have met on the intertubes that has advocated a well-regulated militia being necessary for a secure and free state has been american, asides from one random dude in sweden. hows that?

Much better

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Originally posted by Krypton and you are?

Not stupid.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you have to remember though that during the period in which you speak, the vast majority of those fighting were conscripts (unless im mistaken). conscipts are a far cry from the professional outfits modern societies mobilise today.

Though that is a fair point, I don't really see the difference that truly makes in the end. In conscripted and voluntary militaries alike, you have confused kids with weapons - trained in their use though they may be - judgment is something the individual develops for his or her self, it cannot truly be taught in any sort of boot camp. The unfortunate part is that learning experiences so often come at the cost of human lives - actual people die so that so few can learn and even that seems like a rarity.

Israel is a good example of modern mandatory military service. Look at all of the instigation and the intimidation and the bloodshed that occurs there.

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incidentally, did you watch any generation kill? HBO series based on the book from the journalist who travelled with the marines making the first incursions into iraq in 03. good show, thought about you during it actually.

Nope, I don't really watch any tv. Why did it make you think of me?

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Originally posted by Frenchie Not stupid.

this.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Though that is a fair point, I don't really see the difference that truly makes in the end. In conscripted and voluntary militaries alike, you have confused kids with weapons - trained in their use though they may be - judgment is something the individual develops for his or her self, it cannot truly be taught in any sort of boot camp. The unfortunate part is that learning experiences so often come at the cost of human lives - actual people die so that so few can learn and even that seems like a rarity. Israel is a good example of modern mandatory military service. Look at all of the instigation and the intimidation and the bloodshed that occurs there.

um, but isn't israel a rather poor example of fighting men going out of their way to "shoot lights" because its easier than shooting people?

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Nope, I don't really watch any tv. Why did it make you think of me?

your recent posts concerning rememberance day and the military. there's some pretty awful examples of civilian killing in the mini-series, and it brought your comments to mind.

(actually, there's heaps of homos in it which naturally made me think of you).

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Originally posted by Frenchie Not stupid.

hey there sidekick

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN um, but isn't israel a rather poor example of fighting men going out of their way to "shoot lights" because its easier than shooting people?

Maybe I misinterpreted your point, then. I thought you were trying to somehow establish that soldiers who volunteered for their services are somehow more responsible with their weapons than those who were mandated to serve - a point I most certainly did not understand.

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your recent posts concerning rememberance day and the military. there's some pretty awful examples of civilian killing in the mini-series, and it brought your comments to mind.

Ahh...

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(actually, there's heaps of homos in it which naturally made me think of you).

Homos, you say? Alright, maybe I will have to check this show out.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Maybe I misinterpreted your point, then. I thought you were trying to somehow establish that soldiers who volunteered for their services are somehow more responsible with their weapons than those who were mandated to serve - a point I most certainly did not understand.

no no. that people conscripted into war are less likely to be "OK" with shooting people, as opposed to those that form part of a professional war machine.

FAO: PKC

Re: Our betrayal

Fuck, I just wrote up a whole damn discussion and now lost it because I went back and then click on another link!

Anyway, here's what's left at least:

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Am I saying that guns are evil in the traditional sense? No. Should they be taken away from everyone in an effort to regress humans back to some peaceful state? Hah. All I am saying is they are far more than tools to an end � they are irresponsibility incarnate. They are chaos at its most influential state, and their accelerated destructive capabilities in the hands of anyone who has a will to use them against another human being is fear enough to arm oneself the same, the cycle of bloodshed continued, our individuality giving rise merely to the boundaries by which our relative mortality and contribution can stand up to a hollow point.

No, and that's where I completely disagree. We invented a method to not have to do this. You know what it is? Laws, regulations, morals, law enforcement agencies and the military. They work fine, or at least everywhere outside of the USA they do.

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guns don't kill people; people kill people

Well technically this is correct. If we took the guns away though, this problem would be rare and that's something that the majority of Americans it seems just can't grasp.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't trust the state to have a monopoly on power. That's what this country was founded on. Power is shared by the people and the state. So the state cannot use abuse its power because the people are armed and therefore, have power themselves to counter tyranny.

Read this: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1
Then read this: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1
Then for the love of God do us all a favour and get a Vasectomy.

Re: Re: Our betrayal

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Fuck, I just wrote up a whole damn discussion and now lost it because I went back and then click on another link! Anyway, here's what's left at least: No, and that's where I completely disagree. We invented a method to not have to do this. You know what it is? Laws, regulations, morals, law enforcement agencies and the military. They work fine, or at least everywhere outside of the USA they do. Well technically this is correct. If we took the guns away though, this problem would be rare and that's something that the majority of Americans it seems just can't grasp. Read this: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1 Then read this: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1 Then for the love of God do us all a favour and get a Vasectomy.

No, I'm going to have 10 babies.

I just don't trust my government to have a complete monopoly of power. That's it.

Re: Re: Re: Our betrayal

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Originally posted by Krypton No, I'm going to have 10 babies, as soon as they develop man on man procreation.

fixed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Our betrayal

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fixed.

PKC...is that you?

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Originally posted by Krypton The gang bangers are going to be armed one way or the other. Do you actually trust a government with a monopoly on power? Because I sure don't. Every government which has ever existed has had some degree of corruption. In case Bush decided to waive Habeus Corpus, he'd have a nice surprise waiting for him.

What? You're out of your mind.

By the way, you're not even consistent with your own positions. You cry about breaches of sovereignty all around the world, but the definition of sovereignty includes "a monopoly of power over a defined geographic territory"... so now you're arguing that the United States should not be a sovereign power, but that it should be some sort of anarchic entity subject to the whims of whomever's stockpiled the most weaponry?

The idea of a militia being able to counteract oppression by a centralized government is absurd, mostly because the power of central governments in every country has grown far beyond anything envisioned by the men who wrote and ratified the U.S. Constitution.

Anyway, I think Americans want guns for personal defense mostly because they fear being helpless at the hands of somebody who wants to hurt them. Given the crime rates in some parts of this country, and the fact that the sort of people they fear will find ways to get guns regardless of their legality, I can't say I blame them. Although we really need to ask why violent crime -- not just gun crime -- is so much more common in America than in other similarly developed societies.

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