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-- Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192
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quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Actually thats EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Georgian forces vied to take back South Ossetia, launching hundreds of rockets into and around Tskhinvali. There were Russians there, and the Ossetians consider themselves Russians as well and Russia decided to act on that.

You're leaving out South Ossetian autonomy, which is actually the more relevant comparison. Georgia breached an internationally-agreed upon armistice that set up Ossetian autonomy, and Russia over-reacted.

As in this case, both sides are in the wrong, and both sides are responsible for the perpetuation of violence.

I don't understand why Russia doesn't start to supply S-300 equipment to Gaza.

quote:

Originally posted by otec I don't understand why Russia doesn't start to supply S-300 equipment to Gaza.

Because Hamas cant afford it?

You realize that Russia is no longer in the "give shit away for the revolution" mode anymore right?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Because Hamas cant afford it? You realize that Russia is no longer in the "give shit away for the revolution" mode anymore right?

Even if they could afford the purchase, could you imagine how difficult it would be to get that load into Gaza
haha. that would be an awkward border check.

they would have to have that shit assembled within Gaza, but with Israeli intelligence, in a split second a thirty meter radius would be turned into dust

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Exactly! Q5echo, this might not be exactly the same sentiment, but very similar. On the issue of comparing the US invasion of Iraq to the Russian invasion of Georgia you agreed that there is a difference in moral equivalency. That you agree in condemnation of Russia for their unilateral and heavy actions but allow Israel to pursue unilateral and relatively larger action against Hamas inside the Gaza Strip appears as a double standard to me.

i see what you're trying to imply and on the surface is understadable, but you just touched the surface about what i was thinking.

Russia's incursion into Georgia, regardless of their reasoning, represented a renewed existential threat to former Soviet satelites like the Ukraine and Georgia ect. that harkened back to the glory days of the Cold War. something completely different and much more concderning to the world as a whole than whats going on today in the ME.

admitedly, i was wrong. a lot of us were, as Russia pulled right back out although they took their sweet time...it's Russia after all

if you looked back through that thread i never discussed proportionality. Russia was smart in using overwhelming force from the outset. thats how you control the situation to your advantage and minimize exposure. i was concerned about motive not proportionality.

in this latest case with Israel and Hamas, which is COMPLETEY different tactically as well as strategically, i have yet to Israel invade Gaza like Russia did in Georgia. but it's early

if you want to study a more similar parallel look at the Israeli/Hezbollah war in the summer of 2006. i think i have been consistent in my views for the last 2 and a half years

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i see what you're trying to imply and on the surface is understadable, but you just touched the surface about what i was thinking. Russia's incursion into Georgia, regardless of their reasoning, represented a renewed existential threat to former Soviet satelites like the Ukraine and Georgia ect. that harkened back to the glory days of the Cold War. something completely different and much more concderning to the world as a whole than whats going on today in the ME. admitedly, i was wrong. a lot of us were, as Russia pulled right back out although they took their sweet time...it's Russia after all if you looked back through that thread i never discussed proportionality. Russia was smart in using overwhelming force from the outset. thats how you control the situation to your advantage and minimize exposure. i was concerned about motive not proportionality. in this latest case with Israel and Hamas, which is COMPLETEY different tactically as well as strategically, i have yet to Israel invade Gaza like Russia did in Georgia. but it's early if you want to study a more similar parallel look at the Israeli/Hezbollah war in the summer of 2006. i think i have been consistent in my views for the last 2 and a half years

I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that Russia needed to use its massive force to control that situation quickly.

On the other hand, Georgia for the most part was a legitimate military force in uniform and on a much closer playing field to Russia.

Hamas is basically small time chumps with some shitty home made rockets and old soviet katyushas. Using F-16s and dropping ordinance from thirty thousand feet is a bit over kill.

I am not saying that Israel shouldn't be in there trying to defend itself, but when their biggest concern, as an Israeli spokesperson on CNN just said, "children wetting their bed" I do not think F-16s are the way to handle the situation.

Make no mistake: This IS the only way to solve this situation. Everything else is an illusion. History and statistics are very clear about this: Aggression doesn't defeat terrorism. Ridiculous violence does. It DOES.

This:

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo point being is that all this sobbing you do over the Gaza blockade ignores the fact that a blockade relies completely upon the tacit agreement of other countries that border her. the same goes for Jordan and the West Bank.

and this:

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King 16 israelis killed in about a decade from rockets 225 Palestinians killed by israeli missiles in ONE DAY. Disgusting

Are not mutually exclusive sentiments.

The enormously disproportionate response of Isreal has nothing to do with the disgusting lack of potlitical support for Palistine from leaders (not people) of other countries who claim to be allied to Palistine.

The enormous number of protests that are erupting along with the speed of thier response is quite astounding, and a bit inspiring. CNN has even been covering a good deal of protest coverage. This would never have happened a decade ago, either the people being able to protest or them getting covered on a major American news station.

Now it is in the political leaders court to be able to respond apropriately.

Economic santions on Isreal anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you obviously don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, so what you think or what you have to say about this where people are just trying to live in peace is again, not saying much

I tend to think not having 'a dog in this fight' actually makes what he has to say more relevant, not less.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss haha... you're totally taking the Hamas bait exactly as they want. If Canada or the U.S. or England or whoever was getting hit with rockets from a neighboring country, INDESCRIMINATLY dropping into civillian areas, what do you think would happen? So what if 200 people have been killed in one day... Israel is at least specifically targeting Hamas and being as surgical in nature as they can be; Hamas has been asking for this and is trying to get sympathy from all over the world, especially from naive fools like yourself, and play the victim. You think they Israel should count the exact number of rockets and send the exact same amount back "to be fair"? Think about it... if Canada launched about 200 rockets into Detroit, regardless of the number of people they killed, the U.S. would have the right to hit back as necessary.

And you are eating up the Israli bait like a fucking guppy by responding to what is clearly an irational outburst of pasionate, yet (sorry man) rather dull drivel. Can't you accept that some level of outrage is going to be the result of indescriminate airial attacks (or maybe barely descriminate would be a better term.)

If Canada were to launch 200 rockets into Detroit I would expect, and even support a US response. Here is where I am going to start ripping on the US populus though.

What is clear from your post is that you are ignorant of your suroundings. You should have realized that when you confused your geographic subdivisions. Isn't it extremely clear that Canada is a country where as Detroit is a city? Do you even see how massive a problem that is? Windsor is the city opposite Detroit, it's a rather substantial city by any measure, European, American, but probably not Asian.

So then the first problem becomes apparent. If you were in charge of the country Vancouver might have been leveled for the attacks of some six people in Windsor. That would be like dropping Napalm on Seatle in response to what a bunch of people in New York did, or invading Iraq after an attack on new york by Saudi nationals trained in Afganistan ... why do I bother?

And then there is the issue of 'the right to hit back as nessesary'. The majority of the world complains not about the fact that Isreal responds to the aggresion of a minority but that the country responds BEYOND what is nessesary. Getting back to the example of rockets in Detroit, the type of response that the Israli army has made a 'normal' response would be the same as destroying swaths of Toronto for attacks of a minority in Windsor (Windsor is some 4 hours or more away from Toronto, I've never even been to Windsor yet I live in Toronto, the cities are not all that closely tied together.)

quote:

The best way to resolve this conflict is to allow Hamas to have its war and get utterly crushed by Israel or overthrown by Gazans to avoid that unavoidable conclusion. Hamas insists on a war of annihilation and won't accept any other solution. Let them have it.

The problem is that Hamas is an organization, Gaza is a territory. War isn't war any more, no longer do nation states 'go to war'. Instead discontent people attack authorities, a minority of people. There is no way that the peaceful people in Gaza stand a chance of establishing any kind of authority that would be capable of disarming the militant minority if Isreal keeps destroying the infrastructure of the region and creating legions of new angry men with nothing to loose.

Give these people something to live for and they will be less willing to martch to war.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Make no mistake: This IS the only way to solve this situation. Everything else is an illusion. History and statistics are very clear about this: Aggression doesn't defeat terrorism. Ridiculous violence does. It DOES.

How does this logic apply to the Irgun? theyre commander was prime minister 1977-1983.

what if the brits had gone after the Irgun with extreme violence like you suggest.Chase em evil doers W style. Im pretty sure the fate of Israel today would have been quite different. no-they walked away, and it was dissolved in the IDF.

one question-do u think the King David Hotel bombings were justified?

I think terrorism 20th century onward has taken a different face, perhaps your statistics dont apply as fluidly. tamils, basques, pkk, etc etc the list goes on of people that have a mentality that they will fight to the death, and when they die, theyre sons get angered and want to avenge their father's death

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes, because in war proportionism is somehow relevant...

The issue of proportion is very relevant. It is relevant in determining how long a war lasts, how many allies each side has, and how any peace will be brokered.

Isreal has to realize that thier protactorate is crumbling and that getting more allies will be the way forward. The longer the Isreali government maintains a policy of dispropotionate response the fewer people / peoples are going to be willing to step up and help Isreal in times of trouble.

Once again I must be quite clear about what Isreal is facing. How much longer can the US honestly be counted uppon to provide the elevated level of financial support that continues to be transfered to the country?

In the end the population of the US is going to really start to question why they are giving Isreal so much money each year as they sit jobless in a crumbling economy.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles If you people actually care about the people of Gaza, those so-called innocent civilians, then you'll put pressure on Hamas.

I agree, there is no question that Hamas needs to be pressured.

This preassure will never come to bear in the middle of a country made of rubble and filled with widdows.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, and you haven't heard a peep from them the last two and a half years have you?

Do you think they've forgotten?

It's just another scar on Isreal's already butt uggly foreign relations face.

It also showed that Isreal was weak, unable to beat a poorly armed, underfunded foe.

Oh, and it showed that the people of Lebonon cared little about who had the biggest gun, the were more interested in getting water, power and having garbage taken away.

quote:

Originally posted by otec LOL so now Israel goes same way as Russia in Georgia, and the US supports it. what a damn Christmas joke.

stop remembering things!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I recognize that they were elected but as far as acting 'governmental' they are far from it. No other government in the real world would get away with what they do get away with. I don't know how else to describe them other than Israel's bad brother (I hope that made sense)...

Well put.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex Is there ever going to be a solution to this mess? It's such a shame that countless civilians have to pay with their lives for this. 250+ dead now, and it will have solved NOTHING. For 4000 years the people of Israel have been fighting wars, it's truly sad that things there are in the same barbaric state they were in the days of the old testament.

Only once people realize that the land around Isreal isn't all that valuble.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell And you are eating up the Israli bait like a fucking guppy by responding to what is clearly an irational outburst of pasionate, yet (sorry man) rather dull drivel. Can't you accept that some level of outrage is going to be the result of indescriminate airial attacks (or maybe barely descriminate would be a better term.) If Canada were to launch 200 rockets into Detroit I would expect, and even support a US response. Here is where I am going to start ripping on the US populus though. What is clear from your post is that you are ignorant of your suroundings. You should have realized that when you confused your geographic subdivisions. Isn't it extremely clear that Canada is a country where as Detroit is a city? Do you even see how massive a problem that is? Windsor is the city opposite Detroit, it's a rather substantial city by any measure, European, American, but probably not Asian. So then the first problem becomes apparent. If you were in charge of the country Vancouver might have been leveled for the attacks of some six people in Windsor. That would be like dropping Napalm on Seatle in response to what a bunch of people in New York did, or invading Iraq after an attack on new york by Saudi nationals trained in Afganistan ... why do I bother? And then there is the issue of 'the right to hit back as nessesary'. The majority of the world complains not about the fact that Isreal responds to the aggresion of a minority but that the country responds BEYOND what is nessesary. Getting back to the example of rockets in Detroit, the type of response that the Israli army has made a 'normal' response would be the same as destroying swaths of Toronto for attacks of a minority in Windsor (Windsor is some 4 hours or more away from Toronto, I've never even been to Windsor yet I live in Toronto, the cities are not all that closely tied together.) The problem is that Hamas is an organization, Gaza is a territory. War isn't war any more, no longer do nation states 'go to war'. Instead discontent people attack authorities, a minority of people. There is no way that the peaceful people in Gaza stand a chance of establishing any kind of authority that would be capable of disarming the militant minority if Isreal keeps destroying the infrastructure of the region and creating legions of new angry men with nothing to loose. Give these people something to live for and they will be less willing to martch to war.

First, I'm not an Israel sympathizer... I just think in this case, Hamas is asking for what they get. They knew eventually this would happen if they stayed their course, but they aren't getting the response they hoped from other countries. Hamas is an organization that has control of the territory of Gaza... Hamas doesn't give a fuck about them (innocent Gaza residents) either, as they are using them as pawns in their fucked up game of "everybody hate the Jews for what they're doing to the innocent." Hamas has the power to give those people something to live for but they have made it clear that isn't their priority as much as provoking a military power is.
Secondly, don't call me ignorant you piece of shit. I'm not aware of my surroundings? LOL! Detroit is a city, yeah... within the borders of the U.S. I could have picked any fucking town or city I wanted, I just happened to pick Detroit because it's close to Canada, to make the point that when a country's soverign borders are breached with rockets from a place outside those borders, all hell can and should be expected to break loose. Talk about missing the point.

Anyway, why don't you blame Hamas at all for bringing this on themselves? They broke the cease fire agreement and launched... they knew what would happen.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell This: and this: Are not mutually exclusive sentiments.

they are if you're simply a student of recent history.

you think the blockade pre-dates Hamas agression? news flash atbell, NO! it doesn't. try again.

all you have to do is go back 18 months to the summer 2007 when Hamas violently took over the Strip.

quote:

The enormously disproportionate response of Isreal has nothing to do with the disgusting lack of potlitical support for Palistine from leaders (not people) of other countries who claim to be allied to Palistine.

i completely agree. so do these guys...

here's Abu Mazen:

quote:

"Palestinians could have avoided the Gaza massacre."

adding further

quote:

"We spoke to them and told them 'Please, we ask you not to end the cease-fire. Let it continue,'"

Egyptian Foreign Minister, Aboul Gheit:

quote:

We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to reach Egypt. They aren't being allowed to go through

when asked why,

quote:

"Ask the party that controls Gaza."

Egyptian Intelligence Chief Omar Suleiman:

quote:

"Meshal's gang" - a reference to the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, Khaled Meshal - of behaving arrogantly toward Egypt, and added that there was no choice but "to educate the Hamas leadership - even in Damascus."

Mohammad Abdallah Al Zulfa, member of the Saudi Shoura Council:

quote:

"Iran is the big threat in today's world, supporting all the terrorists from Hamas to Hezbollah to some other terrorists that we don't know their names yet. Iran destabilized the region by supporting all the illegal activities and activists such as Hamas."

it's pretty clear now, almost 48hrs after hostilities, from the reaction of leaders who have historically chided Israel for aggression have almost completely turned against Hamas. good. Hamas is a criminal, terrorist, blight on Palestinian autonomy and pride, organization aided and abbetted by the Islamic Republic of Iran.

there is no peace in the ME with Hamas in control of Palestinians. it's fairly clear to anybody paying attention and we'll get more and more clarity as the days go on.

quote:

Now it is in the political leaders court to be able to respond apropriately.

i think they have, and so far it's good. down with Hamas.

quote:

Economic santions on Isreal anyone?

doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell I tend to think not having 'a dog in this fight' actually makes what he has to say more relevant, not less.

ok, but no one over there cares about you and what you think is relevant if you're just going to be some objective "unattached third party" quipping existential nonsense about who's worthless and who isn't.


in order for peace to be relevant you gotta have a dog, sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** premeditated? preemptive planning - reason for keeping journalists out last month?

of course it was premeditated, what's your point?

...and this sure as shit wasn't pre-emptive.

Israel should expect more rockets, suicide bombers, and terrorism.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** however what I don't get is what Israel gains in all this?

to humiliate and marginalize Hamas.

the reason you "don't get it" is 1) you don't appreciate the continued danger and existential threat Hamas poses to ME peace, not just Israel. 2) you don't accept that Hamas is an internationally recognized exporter of extremist jihad. 3) you do not respect the outcome of the 1967 Arab/Israeli war. 4) you do not appreciate Iran's role in arming, funding, training and equiping of paramilitary groups and the inherent consequences of such effort.

quote:

I tend not to support flagrant inhumane acts.

you have every right to tell us your opinion, but if you think for one minute this was inhumane then take another look at armed conflict in the 20th century. hell even this century

look, i'm not so arrogant to think i can convince you to be pro-war or a non-pacifist but there are some really awful, awful people in Gaza that want to do things that just cannot be tolerated anymore than they already have been if you are genuinly interested in peace and the peace process.

quote:

you Do you have an explaination how this is going to reduce the anguish and hatred?

for people like you? no. whatever Israel does with her army will always be looked upon as senseless agression and genocide against the innocent fun-loving Islamist paramilitary groups.

for people that seriously want peace, nothing could be more comforting and hopefull than watching the Arab world marginalize a defeated and humiliated Hamas

quote:

Originally posted by ******** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTrM...ks_12-28-08.php

they're all wearing Hamas uniforms. that was a nice clean shot.

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