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-- Israel bombs Gaza...again.
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Israel�s economic/humanitarian blockade was like throwing rocks at a cornered bear. This provocation shook a fragile entity that responded with its claws. The provoker grasped the opportunity to ignite a barrage of force against this defensive bear.

The resulting lopsided headlines read: �bear attacks children, the courageous put it down.�

Of course we know this wasn�t the case. We know that by cutting of electricity, water and indispensable supplies, we only enrage the desperate. We know that other voices need be heard.


French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned "the provocations that led to this situation as well as the disproportionate use of force."

Indonesian Foreign Affairs Ministry spokesman Teuku Faizasyah:
"The Indonesian government condemns the attack and calls for Israel to end the use of violence in the Gaza Strip because this will prompt new tensions..."

Japan�s foreign minister:
"Japan will continue to support ... efforts towards the promotion of the Middle East Peace Process, and will continue its assistance to the Palestinian people, including for Gaza residents."

Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan:
"It will be more difficult to carry out Israel-Palestine peace talks healthily in 2009 under these circumstances. (Israel) might aim to weaken Hamas with the operation in Gaza. We do not share this view. Many people, some groups in the Muslim world who see this tragedy in Gaza will feel more sympathy for Hamas because they are the victims now.

London protest over raids on Gaza [excerpts]:
Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Ed Davey described the strikes as "disproportionate" and "unacceptable".

Conservative leader David Cameron called the violence "horrific" and said both sides must show "restraint".

Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza after Israeli airstrikes left hundreds dead.

MP George Galloway said: "The support at today's demonstration has been overwhelming. There are even Jewish rabbis who have joined us here�. We should treat Israel as we treated South Africa during apartheid. They should be shunned."

--
Yes, there needs to be an immediate cease fire on both sides. Yes, valued life is being lost on both sides. No, it doesn't matter whose more at fault. But don't sit there with your head up your ass and say Palestine started it

amongst the biggest war criminals of our time

ps. and im not talking about the palestinians

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan ps: jews don't celebrate christmas. neither does the muslims

catholic / orthodox palestinians do tho

quote:

Originally posted by Shade You don't find this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2008122...id_081228101521

Of course not... more visual carnage gets more world sympathy. Without a TV camera they have nothing to show for. They can't fight their war on Israel without their martyrs.


/and yes, I have watched Occupation 101, several times. I watch videos from both sides however, so as not to be brainwashed.

In the end of the day, it is Hamas that is being difficult. What the fuck do people expect, that Israel respond to rocket attacks by launching their own rockets in the same manner? No, unlike the Arabs, Israel has certain technology and it will damn well use it. There has been an outcry over Israel's disproportionate use of force. Well guess what, Israel does not posses any force that is proportional to that of the Arabs, only force that is much greater. Trust me people, the Israeli army is very very far from having gone all out at this point. This is still a relatively low-scale operation and one which fortunately seems to have so far been carried out much more precisely than the blundered 2006 operation in Southern Lebanon.

I really don't feel like getting into the politics of this conflict but I can assure you that Israel has gone above and beyond to try and appease the Arabs in these lands. The problem is that nothing is ever good enough for them. Israel has come to accept that Gaza is an Arab land, as evidenced by their withdrawal of ALL Israeli settlements from there. On the other hand, it is Hamas which is still not accepting the existence of the Israeli state on the other side of Gaza's boarders.

One also need look at Egypt and other Arab governments to understand why the situation has arrived to its current point. Going back to my original claim: Hamas is extremely difficult to deal with. They seldom accept conditions that are not made on their terms, never seem satisfied with anything they're offered and they continue to instill their hateful views among the population. Israelis hate Arabs because they're afraid of them, Arabs hate Israelis because they're Israelis.

I will not conclude without mentioning that the Israeli government has a huge debt to pay to the Arab people. I do recognize that many wrongdoings have been been inflicted upon the Arabs, and that ISrael needs to be held accountable in many areas which it does not seem to want to step uop to and admit. HOWEVER, it seems that the Israeli government is the only body that is inclined to put the past behind and look towards solutions that will improve the future, not correct the past. Because in that respect, the Arabs are too fixated on the past. The past needs to be recognized, no more. Solutions are intended for what will occur, not what has already happened. The Arabs cannot seem to grasp this.

Wow, so much unconscious racism on both sides of this debate.

This is probably the most disgusting current event issue to discuss and it really unmasks the flaws of humanity.

the conflict will not end until the "mighty" US decides it will..

tatgirl - i never saw that video that you speak of with the fake body..but i can guarantee you that there are many, many real ones..

it's so easy for us to judge from the comfort of our safe homes, neighbourhoods and country.....it's like watching a movie and being a critic....people would be singing a different tune if they had to endure some of these things...

the latest airstrikes as well as many other actions Isreal has taken, have been condemned by the UN...they are killing innocent people with these bombings..you wonder why young boys strap bombs on their bodies??..they are angry..they have seen their homes bombed and families killed..they have lived in a culture of violence from birth....is it right? of course not! Imagine the horror these people face everyday..fuck, imagine looking out your window right now and seeing houses being bombed...people dying..bodies being carried out from under rubble..imagine what a mind fuck that would be for you..and then tell me after enduring this for years on end..what you would turn into..

all i can say is my heart goes out to the innocent people that are hurting as i type this....the most frustrating part is that nothing is going to change..there are powers at work here that don't want this situation to change..


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/un-condemns-gaza-attack/2008/12/29/1230399077217.html

once again, the UN condemns, the US pats their back....same shit..different year..

here is a link to a wiki page that is pretty informative..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncerning_Israel

So how many people in this thread here condemned Russia for "defending" itself from Georgian attacks but are all for Israel defending itself against Hamas "terrorists"?

you can't go wrong with Napalm

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH So how many people in this thread here condemned Russia for "defending" itself from Georgian attacks but are all for Israel defending itself against Hamas "terrorists"?

huh? two different issues

Georgia attacked breakaway regions (which happened to be full of ethnic russians).

can hamas just not be in power.

come on palestine pick someone better to lead you. time to grow up.

Seems that the U.S' backing and support is a major factor in the actions that Israel decides to take against Palestine and surrounding neighbors. I'm curious as to the change in policies and measures Israel would take without the support of the most powerful country in the world?

no US backing of israel = no israel

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay...821400057137878

How come every time Hamas breaks a ceasefire and starts launching rockets into Israel, Israel gets condemned when they retaliate?

THE REVOULUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED

I believe Obama will still back and support Israel, but if by chance he doesn't, I'm thinking Israel declares war on Iran. They're scared shitless of Iran's nukes.

But then again, that's if the US doesn't do it first...

For those referencing the UN and the US, just read up on the bombing of Serbia and Belgrade of 1999, and you'll see what kind of flop the whole organization is.

The United States only serve their own interests. They have previously worked with both Iran and Iraq, sometimes simultaneously (see Iran/Iraq war), as well as other countries (although immediate examples escape me), but only to the extent that they may see personal gains.

For instance, the US only held close relations with Saddam Hussein until he was no longer of any value. I can only speculate this is the same tone US holds towards other allies (Israel for instance). Although Obama has declared continued support for Israel, I wonder for how long.

I�m not saying �wait till Israel no longer has American support�. All I�m saying is the point already stressed � the American government uses and spits out countries as it pleases.

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl Is Hamas ever not pissed off? lol. srsly.

They better be pissed off.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced if you take religion out of the mix then almost all of these conflicts wouldn't have occurred...heck I would go as far as to say that the world, in general, would be a greater and more pleasant place to live.

Its not anything to do with Muslims being mad at Jews or vice versea. In my earlier post, I said i didn't believe in religion, but I must stress this is not a religious war. It is run by governments, who use region to anger their populations.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan why? because Israel has tanks and fighter jets? it would be a one sided war if it was a conventional war but it's not. both sides are fighting dirty, forced by circumstances

I hope after seeing my post you realized that both sides are not fighting dirty, only the Israeli army, and that only the Palestinians are forced by circumstances to fight back.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade +1 I dislike the comparison of number of deaths, as opposed to number of attacks. You can leave people shattered by constantly launching rockets and scaring the crap out of the citizens, arguably it does *more* damage to a community than an individual death (I really don't feel like discussing psychological issues - let's not play the nitpick game please). Some friends of mine were helping clean up some of these cities and had to run to bomb shelters while cleaning up - they live in trauma. I'm heading over to Israel in less than 24 hours and will be doing some of the same work in my time there; this is utterly disgusting behavior on both ends, but to call it one sided and to put all the blame on that one side is complete ignorance.

I hope you see how scewd your entire comment is now, its not the Palestinians that are keeping this so called "war" hot, its the Israeli government that are insuring the so called "war" continues. And don't even start with the physiological implications of the people caught in this mess. if you watch Occupation 101, there is a section in there that talks specifically about this issue, you will see just how scarred Palestinians are, they are being turned into dogs in the streets.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade I did not say at *ANY* point that I condone everything that Israel does. However, it seems when Gaza is given an inch, they decide they can take a mile. The way Hamas is running things is for big political show and pity. The world respects that, they also have the concept of 'consequences'. It's not the first time Palestinians elect fanatical leadership. Enough of the silly personal attacks, it gets you nowhere.

The leadership that is elected in Palestine is supported by most of the world leaders, its simply not supported by Americans, Israelis and Brits... There is nothing wrong with the leadership in Palestine, they are just labeled as terrorists, where the reality reveals they are mere victims of the American/Israeli war machine.

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl They warn civilians beforehand, to limit casualties. This has ALWAYS been their policy, and I don't think you'll find many other militaries in the world who would offer that same courtesy in their attacks.

Honestly, when I read that sentence, I almost wanted to give up trying to show you guys the way, how in hell would you ever in a million years think that that is true???!?!!?!?!?! fuck man, you are so far down the rabbit hole its almost unrepairable. My heart dropped when someone like you, just suggested that the Israeli military is compassionate. Please... think before you type.

How in hell is warning people inside a prison of an attack within the prison walls going to help those prisoners... its not like they can move out of the way! fuck man.... fuck. that comment seriously upsets me.

please don't disrespect the debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam420

Hey Adam, I know your trying to reason the issue, but your way off, its far more complicated that that. Check out my earlier post, it'll help.

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess can hamas just not be in power. come on palestine pick someone better to lead you. time to grow up.

Again shallow argument, far more complicated than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam How come every time Hamas breaks a ceasefire and starts launching rockets into Israel, Israel gets condemned when they retaliate?

Why aren't you listening to anything I'm saying... learn more about the issue before posting, don't further the bias provide by the media. Thank you.



One last thing, have you noticed how much more vocal and irrational the comments coming from the Pro-Israeli side are... its because they are not based on fact, but mere opinion, suggestion and speculation.
Peace and Reason will prevail, the only obstacle is time...

Anas Attia- I'll ask again for the THIRD TIME:

Where is your condemnation of Hamas & these militants? Where is your desire for peace? What do you propose should be done- peace or destruction?

I'm glad you can post all these movie clips, but you wont answer the difference in both sides desires.

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl Anas Attia- I'll ask again for the THIRD TIME: Where is your condemnation of Hamas & these militants? Where is your desire for peace? What do you propose should be done- peace or destruction? I'm glad you can post all these movie clips, but you wont answer the difference in both sides desires.

You have to understand the problem first tatgirl, you do not, once the problem is understood then the solution could be conjured and evaluated.

The main problem is that THE problem is not understood. I hope you follow.

And clearly, you did not watch any of the material or do any research before commenting, as I had suspected.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam How come every time Hamas breaks a ceasefire and starts launching rockets into Israel, Israel gets condemned when they retaliate?

How come every time Israel provokes the enemy into action they're victimized? And why is it that that "enemies" actions are condemned but when the "good" guys do it, it's ok? Fighting for freedom and democracy and all that beautiful feel good movie stuff is OK. But the moment people fight for another version of "freedom" then all of the sudden they're terrorists, monsters, animals, etc.

Such a double standard it's not even funny.

Hamas and the militants have made the situation a lot worse for Palestine, but the Israeli army is just as bad.


Even if by some MIRACLE, they decide that peace is the best solution to the problem, it will quickly be broken by religious fundamentalists.

The jews/christians want to rebuild the temple of Solomon but won't be able to do so cause the Dome of the Rock is built on top and since this site is one of their most religious places in the world, neither one will budge.

These 3 religions have more in common with each other than any others in the world but they fight like fucking babies...GET OVER IT!!!! and move on.

stop wasting your time Anas Attia--you're arguing against people who have done zero actual research on the topic. In short: you are arguing against a bunch of Fox News viewers

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia You have to understand the problem first tatgirl, you do not, once the problem is understood then the solution could be conjured and evaluated. The main problem is that THE problem is not understood. I hope you follow. And clearly, you did not watch any of the material or do any research before commenting, as I had suspected.

she's asking a simple question.

do you condone, or condemn Hamas terrorist tactics?

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