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-- Stimulus Bill
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quote:

Originally posted by starboy If i'm not mistaken ronald reagan raised taxes every year in the eight years he was president.

polish up on your reagonomics, and they way in which Ronald Reagon got us out of the mess Jimmy Carter left us in. Where unemployement and government spending/deficit rivaled the mess our government spending has gotten us in over the past 8 years.

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen polish up on your reagonomics,

No, i don't. Here, i'll do what you do.

http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/01/n...xes-you-idiots/

This whole economic disaster is directly linked to "reagonomics" His philosophy was to let the market run free and implemented the largest de-regulation in history. 30 years of free market reagonomics is finally over, meet-obamanomics, it's gonna take a while to fix the failure that was "george bush" bush was way more of a socialist than obama will ever be.

Obviously i'm not saying that reagonomics was the only culprit, but it was one of many.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy Obviously i'm not saying that reagonomics was the only culprit, but it was one of many.

That site is hilarious.

The main culprit in this economic disaster is barny frank and his committee that pushed for lose restrictions that allowed banks to loan sub prime mortgages to people who could not afford them. And their vision that everybody should have the american dream and own a home, driving home prices through the roof. Now that they are in the toilet, it has had a domino effect and has crumbled consumer confidence. Blaming Reagon policies of 25 years ago is absurd.

While I agree that de-regulation played a large part, it was mainly the de-regulation of the past decade pushed forward by democrats and republicans alike that allowed the wreckless investments that we have seen in recent times.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy 30 years of free market reagonomics is finally over, meet-obamanomics,

Nice, lets watch the private sector, along with private wealth, dwindle away as big government spending and investment moves in so we can model the successes of european socialism.

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen That site is hilarious. The main culprit in this economic disaster is barny frank and his committee that pushed for lose restrictions that allowed banks to loan sub prime mortgages to people who could not afford them. And their vision that everybody should have the american dream and own a home, driving home prices through the roof. Now that they are in the toilet, it has had a domino effect and has crumbled consumer confidence. Blaming Reagon policies of 25 years ago is absurd. While I agree that de-regulation played a large part, it was mainly the de-regulation of the past decade pushed forward by democrats and republicans alike that allowed the wreckless investments that we have seen in recent times.

We can go on and on with the finger pointing but it's useless... if you think that putting people back to work, and getting credit flowing again, and putting money into the pockets of millions of struggling americans (not the rich, trickle down failure that bush tried for eight years) is not a good idea, then why is this bill so popular with the american public?

quote:

Public support for an $800 billion economic stimulus package has increased to 59% in a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted Tuesday night, up from 52% in Gallup polling a week ago, as well as in late January

Let me guess, you think that doing nothing is a better idea

Tax cuts alone won't work. Also, don't try to compare this recession to others in the past that might have helped with tax cuts. We're losing 10,000 jobs a day right now, you need to stop watching fox noise so religiously, and believing these far right limbaugh-esque web sites preaching the power of NO.

All these republicans in the house and senate are throwing all their cards on the table in hopes that our economy gets worse over the next couple years so they can point the finger at dems and obama and take the power back, rather pathetic and selfish if you ask me.

Josh, We've never met and I have a lot of respect for your music and I don't judge people, especially from what they put on online, but your fiscal politics or at least economic beliefs are totally off.

REAGONOMICS DID NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK. PERIOD. It has now been proven without a doubt in respected journals from the Economist, to the FT, to the Wall Street Journal, to Forbes (etc, etc, etc.), not to mention countless studies by organizations such as goverment think tanks (RAND corp) and too many Ivy league universities to mention, that it has not worked and offers no valid protection against the standard boom and bust economic pattern within free market capitalism. I can post enough evidence of this to make the 1100 page stimulus bill look like a post-it note. This is also proved by the fact that there have been two major recessions since Reagan, both of which were either during or directly after Republican administrations, that went with the trickle down policy method of reaganomics.

Supply side economics is crucially flawed - The rich have got richer while everyone else has become in real terms poorer (by definition of inflation offsetting, value of goods, depreciative scales, etc.) . I can also post the official graphs of wealth decline if you want, which show without argument that while the American middle classes have got poorer (and less due to slipping in to the lower/working classes) and the poor have gone below the poverty line like not seen since the great depression.

Private sector wealth growth (as experienced over the past few years has done nothing apart from make a fe individuals very rich in the boom years then loose everything the moment the markets struggle, bringing the markets down with them.

The GOP opposition to the bill is purely political and it makes me sick - it has nothing to do with the bill itself, simply that they are outnumbered and outdated. They were complaining about no-one having read the bill. Well, I have and it's only very slightly different from the two bills that were put forward nearly a month ago. Also, politicians by their won admission never read bills themselves, that why they have aides, so them throwing the bill on the floor saying we couldn't read this is just BS for the cameras.

Obama has tried seriously hard to get them on board when he simply could have done what Bush did on every subject he wanted passed and just pushed it through with executive power. The crazy thing is that the first stimulus bill which was also a huge amount of money and a republican vehicle just got pushed through and handed out to the Paulson's friends (oh and actually to himself as a major shareholder of one of the bailed out banks).

They're pissed they didn't get in to office, and that the other party is going to get some money to spend on the things that they believe the country needs. and lets be honest the previous way of working didn't do shit for short or long term stability....so even though you may not like it, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I agree the republican response has been pathetic, and party driven, this is why I have been critical of our two party system for as long as I followed politics. However, the package contradicts itself because they claim this is something that it is built to create long term stability, but have thrown it down our throats in just a few short weeks unpolished and uncertain, which is unnecessary. If it is long term stability you seek, take your time and get it right.

I do think action should be taken, but their generous claim of creating 3.5 million new jobs with a pricetag of 780 billion seems a bit absurd. ($225,000 per job) Jobs that exist soley because of government spending, jobs that will dwindle away once those funds are gone.

I find it hard to believe they will find somebody willing to invest in the US currently, forcing the FED to print the money creating drastic inflation over years to come.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy then why is this bill so popular with the american public?

mid %50 is so popular? people are desperate and scared, most of this economic recession is due to loss of consumer confidence alone, which has caused a panic IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen mid %50 is so popular? people are desperate and scared, most of this economic recession is due to loss of consumer confidence alone, which has caused a panic IMO.

YES. As opposed to the 38% who oppose it? yeah 59% is huge, and that's uper 50% not mid. Not to mention the 67% of americans who aprove of the way obama is handling the stimulus, and his 65% public aproval rating. You are in the minority, but i respect your opinion even though it's wrong.

http://www.gallup.com/Home.aspx

2/3rds of americans are dumb with if they think how this bill was rushed is OK.

Fact is, the vast majority of american's don't even take the time to udnerstand what's in the bill and don't ever take into consideration the consequencs. Point is that polls in areas like this are stupid.


Again, I don't care if the bill was perfect. How it was rushed is a disgrace. Would you ever sign that Bill w/o being able to read every detail, even if in the end it was very similar to something you read before?

Politics are retarted. Our congress is retarded.

quote:

[b]Originally posted by djjoshuaallen [/b I do think action should be taken, but their generous claim of creating 3.5 million new jobs with a pricetag of 780 billion seems a bit absurd. ($225,000 per job) Jobs that exist soley because of government spending, jobs that will dwindle away once those funds are gone.

Create and SAVE 3.5 million jobs, i guess you're comfortable with losing firefighters, cops, and teachers due to the lack of capital and an economy in a tale spin. What's your solution to help the 10,000 jobs lost today?

Serious question.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveT 2/3rds of americans are dumb with if they think how this bill was rushed is OK. Fact is, the vast majority of american's don't even take the time to udnerstand what's in the bill and don't ever take into consideration the consequencs. Point is that polls in areas like this are stupid. Again, I don't care if the bill was perfect. How it was rushed is a disgrace. Would you ever sign that Bill w/o being able to read every detail, even if in the end it was very similar to something you read before? Politics are retarted. Our congress is retarded.

It hasn't been rushed. Everything in the bill has been made public for almost a month while it's been going back and forth from the house and senate. About 95% of the contents have stayed the same, and has been available for everyone to pick apart, it's just that less than 1% of the entire package has come into scrutiny by fox news and republicans (like OP) trying to con the public into thinking the entire bill is that 1%.

Pathetic.

No matter what was changed or how much, I want to have the opportunity to go through it and see for myself. A lot of things are slipped into bills quietly and secretly and never mentioned so no debate can be brought up on it as it's rushed through Congress. Happens ALL THE TIME.

11 hours if rushed dude. 11 HOURS from the time the final plan was sent out (and, again, not even fully typed up. Lots of scribbles out lines and details with adjustements handwritten in the columns) to the House voting...

That's pathetic. And there's really no argument to be had for it.

They couldn't even wait a couple days. Two days, big whoop. A week...still, big frickin deal. Just give the fair opportunity.

This isn't about what's in the bill or what isn't. This is about giving at least some time to give everyone a chance to look over it in it's final form....to take it all in at once.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveT A lot of things are slipped into bills quietly and secretly

Name one "thing" that was slipped in the bill quietly.

The contents of this bill have been public for almost a month, you're acting like something was parachuted in from left field at the last minute.

How would I know unless I had time to look it over?

I wouldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy Name one "thing" that was slipped in the bill quietly.

Dave is right, your hopeless. This sort of thing happens all the time. The way it was handled is what I have the biggest problem with, there is no rush for a bill that is not expected to have an immediate impact.

The fact is a stimulus could have been written with half of the dollar amount of this one, AND have been just as effective.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy What's your solution to help the 10,000 jobs lost today? Serious question.

are you saying that because we passed the bill we are not going to lose 10k tomorrow? or on Monday? We are still losing jobs bud, and we will lose many more. Oh yea, and the bill passed.

I dont have all the answers, but because we havent figured them out is no reason to write a 787 billion dollar check.

IMO many companies are currently laying people off because they can do so without having to offer any explanation because everybody is doing it right now. The main problem with this recession is the loss of consumer confidence, I dont see this bill rallying consumer confidence. It just spends on jobs that will only last as long as the funds do, which isnt long really.

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen are you saying that because we passed the bill we are not going to lose 10k tomorrow?

I am saying republicans are doing nothing to help, their contribution is to bet on failure of this bill in hopes of saying "i told you so" the GOP is the party of NO, they have no coherent message, and no concrete ideas besides tax cuts to get us out of this mess.

This isn't enough, but it is a step in the right direction and most economists from the left and right agree.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy I am saying republicans are doing nothing to help, their contribution is to bet on failure of this bill in hopes of saying "i told you so"

agreed. All I'm saying is the the left still needs to spend less on wasteful projects. They can put HALF the amount of this bill directly where it should go and be as effective. They should take a few months to figure out exactly where that should be. I bet they get more support from both the public, economists, and republicans. And have a much better chance for success.

Since all the democrats will all do just as Obama says, and all the happy igorant Obama lovers think he can do no wrong, well then lets just shove it down their throats in just 2 weeks, unfinished and unread, and write the 787 billion dollar check.

I actually think it's hopeless with most of you because from what I've seen on here, you all are party loyalist

Crooks never change. If you think Obama's Presidency is going to change the way America's government operates, your quite the optimist and possibly naive. One man can't change the fabric, culture, or the philosophy of a government. In many ways Obama is just a smart innocent man playing whatever part he is given to play. If they ask him to jump, he has to ask "how high?" The direction of America and the World really depends on the people around him.

The problem with the economy is that money has moved from the hands of the consumer/spender, directly to the banks and the government, all while inflation has gotten out of control. And as long as the money is being holed up in banks and in the hands of the government the recession will continue. The government has to find a way to give people their money back that was taken (debatable) through the mortgage market, stockmarket, and bailouts. The best way to do that is to create jobs, drop taxes severely, bigger stimulus payouts to tax payers, and fiscal responsibility to make up for the drop incoming tax revenue (even though there should be plenty of the stolen middle class money to cover tax cuts for years.) Lowering taxes will allow the economy to work again, because consumers can make descisions for themselves on where they should spend money, and the producers of the products will once again have a reason to make their investments in production and manufacturing because there is a consumer willing and able to spend again. Demand and Consumption will rise, Investment will rise, Supply will rise, GDP will grow and the ecomomy will be healthy again.

Fantastic job by Barack and Co to get this through so quickly. Hope it works.

Ouote from Rahm Emanuel, Obama's Chief of Staff.

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before. This is an opportunity. What used to be long-term problems -- be they in the health care area, energy area, education area, fiscal area, tax area, regulatory reform area -- things that we had postponed for too long that were long-term are now immediate and must be dealt with. And this crisis provides the opportunity for us, as I would say, the opportunity to do things that you could not do before."

This is why there is such a rush.

So this is change? Sounds like politics as usual.

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen agreed. All I'm saying is the the left still needs to spend less on wasteful projects. They can put HALF the amount of this bill directly where it should go and be as effective. They should take a few months to figure out exactly where that should be. I bet they get more support from both the public, economists, and republicans. And have a much better chance for success. Since all the democrats will all do just as Obama says, and all the happy igorant Obama lovers think he can do no wrong, well then lets just shove it down their throats in just 2 weeks, unfinished and unread, and write the 787 billion dollar check.

I read all 1400 pages the other night. Really isn't that hard.

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