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-- United Nations passes a gag order on insulting religions (aka free speech killer)
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Originally posted by haqq Well I wouldn't say a denier but the numbers have a few too many O's

and the PDD has its very first holocaust denier!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and the PDD has its very first holocaust denier!

Can you read?

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Originally posted by haqq Can you read?

yes, you said that the number of jewish deaths at the hands of the nazis was exaggerated by at least 1000%.

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U.N. General Assembly urged nations to provide "adequate protections" in their laws or constitutions against "acts of hatred, discrimination, intimidation and coercion resulting from defamation of religions and incitement to religious hatred in general."

I'm not sure how the UN urging governments to enact laws or constitutional provisions of this sort is the equivalent of a "gag order on insulting religions." There are laws similar to what the UN is urging in most western countries and I've yet to see someone in Canada or the US imprisoned for insulting a religion.

Well this thread was ruined. I was really hoping some conservative was going to take me up on the challenege to debate that we should disband peacekeeping operations and eliminate the World Health Organization.

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Originally posted by haqq Well I wouldn't say a denier but the numbers have a few too many O's

O is a letter.

One extra zero = possible, more then that is highly unlikely. By the same token one too few zero's is also possible.

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Originally posted by atbell O is a letter. One extra zero = possible, more then that is highly unlikely. By the same token one too few zero's is also possible.

My stance on the holocaust is as this man has said:

"I wrote in detail about the Holocaust and said I did not want to discuss numbers. I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000. I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it."

You do realize the Germans kept meticulous records right? If they excelled at anything, it was record keeping. That is something we call evidence, something holocaust deniers and 9/11 truthers just don't understand. I'm not surprised though...

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Originally posted by haqq My stance on the holocaust is as this man has said: "I wrote in detail about the Holocaust and said I did not want to discuss numbers. I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000. I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it."

Soviet Union lost 24 million people in that war. And a majority of them werent killed by gas chambers. Nazi machine was just a very effective killing machine. Its not about whether they had enough bullets or gas chambers to do it. They just DID it.

The real issue here is the issue of Holocaust itself, not the "disputed" numbers. Of course millions of Jews died at the hands of Nazis and their collaborators. The real question should be - do Jews deserve to have the sole credit for the suffering in World War II (denial of which is prosecutable in several EU countries), or was genocide also aimed at other groups - like Slavs / Russians, Romas / Gypsies.

I dont think that Jews are much more special than other groups who suffered in that war, as Nazis had specific plans to enslave and eradicate Slavs - isnt that a planned genocide?

A lot of people know about the (Jewish) Holocaust. Out of those people, fewer people know that there were other big victims of that war who deserve to be remembered and brought to light, but the Jewish of course feel like they are special, and to a certain degree they are right, but it certainly isnt appropriate considering how so many other people suffered in that war and the textbooks hardly cover any of that. While we do know the details of the gas chambers and even lists of Jews, the story is even well portrayed in such blockbusters as Schindler's List, Pianist, Sunshine, etc. etc. etc.

What many people dont know is that the gas chambers WERE NOT EXCLUSIVE for Jews, there were millions of Russians and other peoples who perished there and in the Nazi concentration camps.


THATS an issue, scrutinizing the NUMBERS of dead in chambers is a RETARDED logic, and its just an EXCUSE to look for to satisfy a anti-semitic view.

Magnetonium, I partially agree.

Some problems with the halocaust I have is:

Firstly, why after sixty years have historians been unable to come up with a single German document that points to a Holocaust?

I agree with you with other genocides that have happen. There were at least 20,000,000 people killed in the Soviet Union from 1918 to 1945. The Nazis were small taters when compared to these actions. Thanks to Jews and Nazis, The term genocide is stuck to only Jews. And they have milked everything they possibly can from it... Till this day.

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Originally posted by haqq Firstly, why after sixty years have historians been unable to come up with a single German document that points to a Holocaust?

gee, i dunno. perhaps because biased pieces of shit like yourself fail at research?

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In a dramatic policy reversal, Germany on Tuesday announced it would work toward opening the vast Holocaust archives stored in a small, central German village. Some 17 million individual fates may soon be open to historians and the public. For years, the United States, France, Poland and a number of other countries have been trying to convince Germany to consent to the opening of the so-called "Holocaust Archives" stored in the north-central German town of Bad Arolsen. Citing privacy concerns and fears of lawsuits, however, the German government had consistently refused. The 30 to 50 million documents -- compiled by the Nazis during World War II and outlining the personal fates of 17 million Holocaust and forced labor victims -- remained off limits to scholars and historians. But on Tuesday, Germany changed its mind. At a press conference at the US Holocaust Museum, German Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries said that Berlin would work with Washington to make the archives public. A number of details remain to be worked out, but Zypries said the process should not take more than six months. "We still have negotiations to do," US special envoy for Holocaust issues Edward B. O'Donnell told the Associated Press. "Our goal is to reach an agreement as soon as possible." Meticulous Nazi records An initial hurdle is approaching in mid-May. The archive is overseen by an 11-nation group (Germany, the US, Italy, Poland, France, Belgium, Britain, Greece, Israel, Luxembourg and the Netherlands) that meets annually to discuss issues related to the administration of the archive, and all decisions made about the vast trove of documents must be unanimous. In 1998, the group decided in principle to open the archive, but it has made little progress toward that goal. Germany, says Udo Jost, a press spokesman for the International Tracing Service which is charged with administering the archive, has often been the country putting its foot on the brakes. In the past, the files were made available for use by the International Tracing Service, an arm of the International Red Cross to help people trace displaced relatives whom the Nazis sent to concentration camps or used as slave laborers. But that work has been completed and some members, including the US, contend that access should be opened up for researchers and private citizens. By making the vast records public, many Holocaust survivors and families of victims will be able to obtain a much clearer picture of what happened to their relatives. The Nazis were meticulous record keepers and documented the fates of a huge number of their victims. Historians hope that by learning more about individual fates, a more sharply focused image of how the Holocaust worked will emerge. "We will definitely be able to learn more about individual cases," Jost told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "Whether it will lead to a completely different view of the Holocaust, I don't know about that. History will definitely not have to be rewritten." In fact, many are hoping it does just the opposite. Citing rising anti-Semitism, US Holocaust Museum Director Sarah Bloomfield said the possible opening of the archive couldn't be more timely. Historian Frederick Taylor, the British author of "Dresden: Tuesday, Feb. 13, 1945" who is currently working on a new book on the Berlin Wall, says the material held in the archive will not only make it possible for "the millions of individual tragedies that made up the Holocaust to be properly and respectfully recorded," but may also put a damper on the widespread virus of Holocaust denial. Nail in the coffin of Holocaust denial Opening the archives "will help genuine researchers and act to the disadvantage of the deniers, who treat the Holocaust as if it were a vast, undocumented fantasy created after 1945," Taylor wrote in an e-mail to SPIEGEL ONLINE. "Every true and personal story, every fate solidly documented, represents a small nail in the coffin of Holocaust denial." Pressure to open the archive had been mounting in recent years and a number of media reports, including a February story in the New York Times which accused the German government of blocking the opening of the archives and cast Germany in the bad guy role. Berlin vigorously denied the Times allegations and again cited concerns for the privacy of the individuals whose fates are filed away in the 25 kilometers of documents. Berlin also noted that the "Bonn Agreements," which were signed in 1955 and provide the legal framework for the administration of the archive, would have to be amended before anything could be done. The German turn-around on the issue is of particular interest to historians who have long been doing battle with Germany's restrictive privacy laws. The opening of the archive, said Taylor, provides "refreshing evidence of a new pragmatism in Germany's attitude towards its past. The privacy laws in Germany are at best a little over-fastidious, at worst, downright obstructive."

http://www.spiegel.de/international...,411983,00.html

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Originally posted by haqq Firstly, why after sixty years have historians been unable to come up with a single German document that points to a Holocaust?

Thousands of Nazis were convicted of participating in it...WTF do you think the prosecutors used to convict them? Something called EVIDENCE.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN gee, i dunno. perhaps because biased pieces of shit like yourself fail at research? http://www.spiegel.de/international...,411983,00.html

Did you even read that you fucking retard? Re-read that article, is their any evidence in that? AT ALL? NO! Just a bunch of dudes telling people to open up this mysterious "archive"

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Originally posted by Krypton Thousands of Nazis were convicted of participating in it...WTF do you think the prosecutors used to convict them? Something called EVIDENCE.

Remember my point is not that the holocaust did NOT happen, its that the numbers are wrong. And show me some of this evidence your talking about.

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Originally posted by haqq Remember my point is not that the holocaust did NOT happen, its that the numbers are wrong. And show me some of this evidence your talking about.

You'd be wrong. As I said, the Nazis kept meticulous records of their genocide. Each camp had, by all standards, an excellent administrative process. This should be common knowledge. In 1944, Adolf Eichmann (architect of the holocaust) told Heinrich Himmler that about six million Jews had been disposed of, four million of these having died of "natural causes" in the camps and another two million being killed in the gas chambers. He told one of his officers that, "I'll die happily with the certainty of having killed almost six million Jews."

Spoken from the holocaust administrator himself...

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Originally posted by Krypton You'd be wrong. As I said, the Nazis kept meticulous records of their genocide. Each camp had, by all standards, an excellent administrative process. This should be common knowledge. In 1944, Adolf Eichmann (architect of the holocaust) told Heinrich Himmler that about six million Jews had been disposed of, four million of these having died of "natural causes" in the camps and another two million being killed in the gas chambers. He told one of his officers that, "I'll die happily with the certainty of having killed almost six million Jews." Spoken from the holocaust administrator himself...

Doing a little research I came upon this:

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Apparently a Nazi witness at the Nuremberg trials, Captain Dieter Wisliceny, quoted Eichmann as boasting: �I laugh when I jump into the grave because of the feeling that I have killed 5,000,000 Jews. That gives me great satisfaction and gratification.�" After Eichmann�s kidnapping, at his trial in Israel, Eichmann also signed a confession to the effect of killing five million. The problem with this is that no mainstream historian any longer claims such a high figure for Auschwitz or for Eichmann. Instead the figure is generally put at around ONE million murders at Auschwitz. The 3 or 4 million difference is at least half of the alleged six-million total so this is not an insignificant matter. Were Wisliceny and Eichmann tortured to obtain such confessions? Why is there not a single uncontested document to support such extravagant claims? * The Nuremberg quote is in any event suspect because Wisliceny was fighting for his life. He was later extradited to Czechoslovakia and hanged. * His statement was written in ENGLISH, not his native German. * British historian, David Irving, pointed out a major error in his statement that casts further doubt on whether Wisliceny actually wrote the confession himself.

SOURCE

A man will say anything when interragators are crushing his testicles. Thats why Rudolf Hoess confessed to killing 2 million at Auschwitz, even though the number has been since brought down to well under 1 million.

See, this is why the only people who take the PDD seriously are probably a small handful of its regular posters.

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Originally posted by Aortik See, this is why the only people who take the PDD seriously are probably a small handful of its regular posters.

I'd be surprised if it's even that many.

The only people worth taking seriously in the PDD are a small handful of the regular posters.

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Originally posted by haqq Doing a little research I came upon this: SOURCE A man will say anything when interragators are crushing his testicles. Thats why Rudolf Hoess confessed to killing 2 million at Auschwitz, even though the number has been since brought down to well under 1 million.

So one camp alone, kills 1 million people. What makes it so hard for you to contemplate 6 million Jews dying? Plus 6 million others. There were dozens of deaths camps and a systematic round up of all Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe. Additionally, there is the pre-war and post-war census's, which conclusively show the disappearance of millions of Jews from Europe during the war.

So what is your answer? How many Jews died? This is one of the most ridiculous debates I'v ever had with anyone...

Well by all means, stay the course, Krypton. I think you've almost gotten through to him!

Looks like the 3rd Islamic takeover of Europe is going on and still strong. At least the weather lends itself to the women who dress themselves up like penguins.

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Originally posted by Jake Benson Looks like the 3rd Islamic takeover of Europe is going on and still strong. Another 50-100 years until it spreads into America. At least the weather lends itself to the women who dress themselves up like penguins.

lol, we'v been at the Western takeover of the Middle East for... 100 years?

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Originally posted by Krypton lol, we'v been at the Western takeover of the Middle East for... 100 years?

The migration of european citizens to the middle east has been massive...

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Originally posted by -=Kotten=- The migration of european citizens to the middle east has been massive...

It has. How many Americans are in Iraq? You want to know why Muslims are moving to Europe? Because in the Middle East, western-backed dictatorships regularly fuck them over. Control does not require migration...

Well we have come to the point in this debate my friend, Krypton...

Agree to disagree?

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