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-- Discussion: Production in Ableton... Why does it sound so bad???
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Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell IMO honestly Abletons sound has nothing to do with its warping engine, (unless you are of course stretching stuff, but Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water.) Ableton just has a simpler, more efficient, thus inferior mixdown algorithm (the way it SUMS audio in the master channel) when compared to other DAWs. The reason it has this is because it is meant for LIVE performance, which requires extreme efficiency and CPU budgeting (things like streaming audio files directly from your hard drive instead of commiting them to CPU and the dumbed-down GUI are all purposely done to keep Ableton running at optimal performance in a LIVE setting.) The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic. Someone mentioned that NIN YearZero was written entirely in Ableton, while this is true, I'm almost certain it was mixed down in Protools or mixing desk.

Also Agree to this entirely... and Yes, YearZero was mixed in Pro-Tools.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips But based on what kenneth was saying, I believe that the harsh sound he's talking about is probably coming from people being incompetant at warping.

also a great point

It's likely lazy producers that are just dragging in loops of whatever BPM from Vengeance or whatever other sample CD they torrented, and then using them as-is in their mixdown.

i think its because ableton isnt pro like cubase and logic

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Originally posted by echosystm i think its because ableton isnt pro like cubase and logic

you've found the missing link

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Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell I read Tarekith's comparison but hes only mixing down 3 audio loops, like you say in your later post, it doesnt take into account: Fixed pan laws Fixed fader curves Clipping behaviour (maybe clips are handled better by logic?) Dither (or lack thereof) (included as of version 6) lack of crossfades in arrangement view (fixed in version 8) Inferior inbuilt effects and most importantly how each program handles the processing of effects, even when using identical plug ins. so its not really showing the whole story, even though it is very interesting. I was explaining that Ableton is optimized for Live situations, thus has features that are more efficient and could be the reason why the mixdown may suffer. whats so hard to understand about that?

Honestly though, all that stuff won't make an actual difference to the mix in the end. The fader curves and pan laws just change the way you work not the way it sounds in the end. You can still get the same result out of ableton as you would in logic. Except the possibly inferior effects, which I don't use anyway, but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of the in built effects.

The way it handles the processing of effects even when using identical plugins is the same as logic/cubase/PT/Reaper/Sonar/FL/anything. There IS NO DIFFERENCE. That's what I was saying was silly about your post. Theres no difference in the summing engine, and no difference in the way it "handles effects". Tarekith's test proves that almost beyond doubt...

I'm happy to hear if you have any other ideas about what might be causing differences in the mixdown, but just saying "Its optimised for live use and is therefore inferior in terms of sound quality" is really silly IMO.

Again, I put it down to user error, rather than any actual difference in the audio engine.

Timestretch with Elastique is a rig at best. It will make everything sound different. As to why this is affecting Ableton producers I could only guess it's because they think it solves all their problems of not having correctly pitched samples? If it's used it's going to inflect Elastique's tonal character. So your best bet is to Mask the sound with reverb or some other technique.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Honestly though, all that stuff won't make an actual difference to the mix in the end. The fader curves and pan laws just change the way you work not the way it sounds in the end. You can still get the same result out of ableton as you would in logic. Except the possibly inferior effects, which I don't use anyway, but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of the in built effects. The way it handles the processing of effects even when using identical plugins is the same as logic/cubase/PT/Reaper/Sonar/FL/anything. There IS NO DIFFERENCE. That's what I was saying was silly about your post. Theres no difference in the summing engine, and no difference in the way it "handles effects". Tarekith's test proves that almost beyond doubt... I'm happy to hear if you have any other ideas about what might be causing differences in the mixdown, but just saying "Its optimised for live use and is therefore inferior in terms of sound quality" is really silly IMO. Again, I put it down to user error, rather than any actual difference in the audio engine.

honestly the only way i would be sold on his test is if someone made a full blown song identically in both DAWs. until then, i'll rely on my experience that the tracks I've mixed down in logic just flat out sound better to my ears than ones ive mixed down in Ableton.

Just a question to you Abletoners, got nothing to do with the topic though.
But how do one automate from the session view ?
I can record automation and it ends up in the arrangement view just fine, but i want to transfer the automation from the arrangement and back into the session clips.
I tried to consolidate the 4 bars of automation i wanted from the arrangement view and dragging it back into the session view, but the automation not playing then.
Im trying to automate simpler in this case.

You have to use clip envelopes. So go to the clip and then click on "e" and draw in the envelope. Look it up in the manual if confused about what I mean.

Theres no way to actually "record" automation by hand in the session view that I know of, it needs to be drawn unfortunately (which is a major gripe of ableton users)

I see thanks.

I found the solution to export the automated clip as audio and then reimport it into session view, a solution i can live with.

i think it depends on the producer
the tool is only as good as the person who uses it.

example.
2 major awards at the grammy's (i forget which) were produced in ableton

and the award for best movie sound track was also produced with ableton.

depends on your speakers
your knowledge and technique

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Originally posted by Subtle Just a question to you Abletoners, got nothing to do with the topic though. But how do one automate from the session view ? I can record automation and it ends up in the arrangement view just fine, but i want to transfer the automation from the arrangement and back into the session clips. I tried to consolidate the 4 bars of automation i wanted from the arrangement view and dragging it back into the session view, but the automation not playing then. Im trying to automate simpler in this case.

Look up ghost / dummy clips

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic.

can you explain how you did this? i have tried to do such a thing but when you open Live as a a slave it disables all my audio units and vst's, hence half the stuff in my ableton set doesnt produce sound to send to Logic !

I recently did a track and based it around some vinyl samples...

i work mostly in logic but know ableton pretty well and was more comfortable with warping in there, so i recorded all the sampled parts into ableton and warped and pitched them (using complex mode) straight in live.

when I was 90% done with the project and after noticing the samples had that trademark warp distortion (especially on the highs) etc. I decided to just take those same parts and redo them straight in logic to see if there was a difference.

Let me tell you, after doing this, the samples right away sounded 100% better and instantly fit in the mix much better as well.

Hopefully with 8 when they start using the 'pro' warp algorithm this issue will be cleared up, but for now im just sticking with logic.

Deadmau5 made a blog post one time about how Impulse changed the attack transient of kick drums, and he confirmed it with Steve Duda.

here it is http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?...logID=393775269

Software Drum Machines suck in general. Get a real sampler, load the samples into there, and knock shit up.

I think Ableton is one of the best at summing, second only to Logic's summing. Depending on what Zabiela and Schossow use for the actual summing, whether Ableton's or Analogue through a Console/Summing Mixer, if they use Ableton's, its very safe to say Ableton has a really good summing mixer, the stereo imaging is amazing and the sounds have a lot of space compared to what I've heard from other sequencers. My cousin uses Ableton, and even his mixes have a great image. If Ableton productions sound bad, its because people simply dont know how to use it, or dont know how to engineer sound and mix properly through it. Ableton's engine is truly great, and is the main reason why I would switch to it from the Cakewalk sequencer I use currently. Or i'll invest in a summing mixer or 16 Channel Midas or Toft console.

ableton sounds bad coz it aint pro like cubase and logics.... also ppl dnt use enuff hardware with ableton........ whereas people on cubase and logics know that software suks....... fukn noobs LOL

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Originally posted by echosystm ableton sounds bad coz it aint pro like cubase and logics.... also ppl dnt use enuff hardware with ableton........ whereas people on cubase and logics know that software suks....... fukn noobs LOL

I hope your being sarcastic. If not, then your the noob.

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Originally posted by Lucidity I hope your being sarcastic. If not, then your the noob.

You're.

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Originally posted by Lucidity your the noob.

NO YOU ARE THE NOOB

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Originally posted by Kismet7 I think Ableton is one of the best at summing, second only to Logic's summing. Depending on what Zabiela and Schossow use for the actual summing, whether Ableton's or Analogue through a Console/Summing Mixer, if they use Ableton's, its very safe to say Ableton has a really good summing mixer, the stereo imaging is amazing and the sounds have a lot of space compared to what I've heard from other sequencers. My cousin uses Ableton, and even his mixes have a great image. If Ableton productions sound bad, its because people simply dont know how to use it, or dont know how to engineer sound and mix properly through it. Ableton's engine is truly great, and is the main reason why I would switch to it from the Cakewalk sequencer I use currently. Or i'll invest in a summing mixer or 16 Channel Midas or Toft console.

It seems like most pros use Ableton as a tool, and not for mixing.

I would like airbase's take on this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm NO YOU ARE THE NOOB

That would be correct genius, now lets hear your music, where is it jackoff? At least I put mine out there, you see I don't mind if you talk shit about me being a noob, cause I will admit that I am still learning, but, how you gonna talk shit, then not put yourself out there? I don't know if you are a noob or not. I was just sayin, cause to say that you have to have more analog that is real noob. I'm sorry, but, I may be noob but, I can still get awesome sounds out of a PC, I don't need hardware like u. And Ableton Live is just fine, learn how to use it correctly.

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