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-- Obama killing the economy and stock market? Huh?
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Originally posted by delobbo I don't feel they spent enough time THINKING about what to do. They just rushed it out. In terms of a SOLUTION, this required some serious thought and contemplation. And, it needed the power of a visionary or visionaries - they need not be Harvard grads (from what we've seen, this may even work against them) - they could be a high school dropout for all I care. They just need to have a clear sight and vision of what needs to happen. They need to be a genius and come up with a genius, THOUGHT OUT plan. We did not get anything remotely close to it.

Did you read the stimuls bill?

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Originally posted by Clovis Did you read the stimuls bill?

no. but i watch / read news. does the news have it wrong?

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Originally posted by delobbo I feel his announcements over the past weeks HAVE indirectly resulted in market dives. I feel if he had made different choices, the markets would have reacted positively. I am not happy about this.

This isn't completely true.

The way I see it he's just being honest about what's been going on for years. The markets have just been in denial for the whole time. Now that the President is actually trying to get things right they have to admit how shitty the American economy has been for about a decade, maybe two.

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

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Originally posted by delobbo no. but i watch / read news. does the news have it wrong?

I don't know I haven't read the 450 pages yet. You should though, it's your country not mine.

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Originally posted by atbell This isn't completely true. The way I see it he's just being honest about what's been going on for years. The markets have just been in denial for the whole time. Now that the President is actually trying to get things right they have to admit how shitty the American economy has been for about a decade, maybe two. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

I see where you are coming from. It's too bad we will never know what could have happened.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I fear obama is taking us down a terrible path, even though not as bad as bush. While I agree there is a need for some sort of stimulus, the administration has it all wrong. The plan is too heavy on temporary tax relief and current economic stimulus without the necessary future growth prospects (i.e., not enough spending on future growth projects). His plan is full of incentives that don't promote the right kind of behaviors. Those who work hard are not only not being rewarded, but are also being slightly punished. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes, but I don't want it lining the pockets of poor people. I would rather have it building schools, or funding the education of the children of the poor. While helpful to the recipient, a direct check is unproductive for society. With all that said, the future inflationary pressure is going to kill those who obama is trying to help most (the poor). The poor are the class of people who are hurt the most by inflation because their wages are least likely to keep pace with inflation. My wages (scratch that - my salary) should keep pace, so I'll likely benefit from inflation (reducing the real dollar cost of loans, and considering i don't have substantial savings at this early point in my life). It's too bad people are so short-sighted.

I find that we agree more and more on things economic.

quote:

Originally posted by delobbo I don't feel they spent enough time THINKING about what to do. They just rushed it out. In terms of a SOLUTION, this required some serious thought and contemplation. And, it needed the power of a visionary or visionaries - they need not be Harvard grads (from what we've seen, this may even work against them) - they could be a high school dropout for all I care. They just need to have a clear sight and vision of what needs to happen. They need to be a genius and come up with a genius, THOUGHT OUT plan. We did not get anything remotely close to it.

The problem is that the time needed to think, read and study is just simply not there. Trying to come up with a well thought out plan would take YEARS of careful study and probably as much time debating to get it sorted out.

What NEEDED (past tense) to be done was for people to have accepted the mistakes and problems back in Nov. 2004. There were piles of logical arguments around and many people who were exactly right about what was going on in the US, they were all ridiculed.

Just look back at some of the posts in this forum, for the most part the problems were well identified but no one wanted to spend any money or time to actually study any of this. (as far as I can tell).

An army of graduate economic students might have been a good idea years ago, now I think it's too late. Oh, and the graduate programs should be self directed, not under the supervision of Profs who studied what they were paid to study and not what needed to be studied.

Obama is burying the country and yet the far left fails to acknowledge the catastrophic actions of their messiah. He has shown he is nothing more just like any other far left politician in Washington. As Rush said" if he plans to implement a far left agenda, I hope he fails"

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Originally posted by delobbo no. but i watch / read news. does the news have it wrong?

They are extremely short on specifics. I don't know how anyone can have a reasonable opinion on what the stimuls bill entails without reading at least the detailed summary offered by congress.

I've read the first half and skimmed through the rest and have been following an excellent blog by Steve Coll on the stimulus:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/stevecoll/?xrail


I don't really know how you can say one of the biggest investments in this country in years is not "visionary".

This isn't 800 billion going out the door just to keep banks from failing. We're actually going to see a ton of benefits from this.

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Originally posted by Shakka I find that we agree more and more on things economic.

I went to business school (specializing in finance) before law school. I spent a good part of a year reading milton friedman.

Generally, I believe free markets will always have the right answer (with the caveat that there is sufficient transparency in the market); the relevant question is whether we, as a society, are willing to go through the pain that free markets can impose during a period of correction. It's probably the healthiest in the long term to allow free market corrections, however, people are very short-sighted and considering many people live pay-check to pay-check it can be quite difficult to expect the general population to by into the idea that free market corrections are better than government intervention. As a human being, I am sypathetic to the general welfare needs of people who aren't as fortunate as myself. So, I am willing to accept government intervention (if for no other reason than to prevent people from resorting to crime to feed their families).

I know we don't have years to figure it out. But, just not like, overnight? give it maybe, a few days? a week?

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Originally posted by LatinLover Obama is burying the country and yet the far left fails to acknowledge the catastrophic actions of their messiah. He has shown he is nothing more just like any other far left politician in Washington. As Rush said" if he plans to implement a far left agenda, I hope he fails"

Well look who it is.

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Originally posted by Clovis They are extremely short on specifics. I don't know how anyone can have a reasonable opinion on what the stimuls bill entails without reading at least the detailed summary offered by congress. I've read the first half and skimmed through the rest and have been following an excellent blog by Steve Coll on the stimulus: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/stevecoll/?xrail I don't really know how you can say one of the biggest investments in this country in years is not "visionary". This isn't 800 billion going out the door just to keep banks from failing. We're actually going to see a ton of benefits from this.

I hope you will be able to say "told ya so" in my direction.

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Originally posted by delobbo I hope you will be able to say "told ya so" in my direction.

I don't know for sure, but what I do know after reading much of the bill is that there is a lot of fantastic funding in it and many construction projects that can start right away.

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Originally posted by Clovis I don't know for sure, but what I do know after reading much of the bill is that there is a lot of fantastic funding in it and many construction projects that can start right away.

jobs like this?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econo...rant-jobs_N.htm

quote:

LOS ANGELES � Tens of thousands of jobs created by the economic stimulus law could end up filled by illegal immigrants, particularly in big states such as California where undocumented workers are heavily represented in construction, experts on both sides of the issue say. Studies by two conservative think tanks estimate immigrants in the United States illegally could take 300,000 construction jobs, or 15% of the 2 million jobs that new taxpayer-financed projects are predicted to create. They fault Congress for failing to require that employers certify legal immigration status of workers before hiring by using a Department of Homeland Security program called E-Verify. The program allows employers to check the validity of Social Security numbers provided by new hires. It is available to employers on a voluntary basis. "They could have deterred this, but they chose not to," said Steven Camarota, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies. He said a federal requirement that employers use E-Verify would have reduced, if not eliminated, the hiring of immigrants in this country illegally. An advocacy group for immigrants, illegal and legal, did not disagree with the 300,000 estimate. Camarota says the estimate is based on data from the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey and other independent findings that 15% of all construction workers in the USA are either illegal immigrants or lack the status of legal immigrant authorized to work. But Jorge-Mario Cabrera, director of education for the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles, said it is impossible to predict with certainty because it is unknown how many jobless immigrant construction workers may leave the U.S., frustrated by the economic recession, before the new spending produces jobs. He questioned the Center for Immigration Studies' motives. "Those are fear tactics. � 'The immigrants are here to take your job,' " Cabrera said. "I think that we really should be focusing on economic progress for all." The center is a Washington policy organization that, its website says, "seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted." Cabrera says his group believes unauthorized immigrants working in this country contribute to the economy. A similar hiring estimate was produced in a report in February by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. Senior research fellow Robert Rector wrote, "Without specific mechanisms to ensure that workers are U.S. citizens or legal immigrants authorized to work, it is likely that 15% of these workers, or 300,000, would be illegal immigrants." The version of the stimulus bill passed by the House of Representatives included a provision requiring employers to check immigration status with the E-Verify system before hiring. The Senate did not include such a provision, and it was not in the version sent to President Obama. The Obama administration has delayed until at least May 21 a Bush administration executive order requiring federal contractors to use the E-Verify system in hiring. It had been scheduled to take effect in January. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce filed suit seeking to block the requirement, joined by the Associated Builders and Contractors and other business organizations. The business groups and immigrant advocacy groups argue that the E-Verify database is riddled with errors that could result in millions of workers being wrongly identified as not authorized for work. They say requiring its use before hiring would impose a cost burden on employers and open them to lawsuits. Camarota said illegal immigrants working in construction are concentrated in California, Arizona and Texas along the border with Mexico, as well as Florida, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina and Georgia.

So some illegals might benefit from a miniscule percent of contruction jobs being created by the stimulus. The construction companies who hire them because they'll work for lower wages will also benefit. Non issue imo.

I love how people automatically assume all illegal immigrants crossed over from Mexico six months ago. That's far from the truth and the fact that people don't know this is appalling.

There are thousands and thousands of people who arrived in the United States 20 years ago, have done nothing but work for their families, have stayed out of trouble, and have been denied when they applied for permanent residency. Which makes them ILLEGAL.

Are you telling me these people should not be able to feed their families? Give me a fucking break.

i know they didnt cross over 6 months ago and i know this is a far greater issue than can be addressed right now, or ever.

quote:

Originally posted by delobbo i know they didnt cross over 6 months ago and i know this is a far greater issue than can be addressed right now, or ever.

So thanks for bringing it up here.

you're right, that article is irrelevant. we should not care who these new jobs are going to.

quote:

Originally posted by delobbo no. but i watch / read news. does the news have it wrong?

When it comes to policy, the answer is usually yes. Do you think Keith Olbermann or George "factcheck" Will or Rush Limbaugh have actually read the bill?

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Originally posted by delobbo you're right, that article is irrelevant. we should not care who these new jobs are going to.

In all honesty, as long as they're going to people who will spend the money rather than use it to pay down debts or invest, the overall net gain is positive.

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Originally posted by delobbo you're right, that article is irrelevant. we should not care who these new jobs are going to.

Your sarcasm is fucking boring.

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Originally posted by Clovis Your sarcasm is fucking boring.

nice comeback

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Originally posted by delobbo nice comeback

It's not a comeback it's an observation.

If you don't want to debate issues then stop posting in a forum where all we do is exactly that.

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