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quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Im glad you understand my argument at least, but analogue is indeed objectively sonically better than digital. Just compare Vinyl Records to MP3 versions, and the argument should end there. Or compare 10 similar tracks made with Analogue equipment to 10 tracks made with only software, and 9 times out of 10 you will pick the Analogue sound in a blind test. I think there is an objective difference, I mean even low kbps music on Youtube that was made with Analogue equipment sounds better than a 320KBPS purely software made track you can get off beatport. Majority of the tracks I hear off Beatport dont do anything for me, because they were likely made only on software, which is why we have this problem with the increase of shitty music that buries the good music out there. Software is a means to an end, but not the best. To furthur elaborate on my argument, good music, actually.... brilliant music can be COMPOSED or written through software, by you or anyone here, but that brilliant SOUND that you hear in old records still cannot be achieved purely through software. And this why I'd like to see people getting more into hardware, EDM music would improve greatly because of it.

but sounding "better" is subjective. Wouldn't digital sound better because it is more exact and precise? depends on what you like, anyways, i guess a lot of people think it sounds cold because it is too exact, missing that "human" feel, like sequenced drums, but whatever, dude its up to the listener. sometimes, i like the soft sound of fruity loops (its almost innocent, weird haha), just for listening though.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm You do realise almost all of the most popular trance songs weren't made on analog synths, right?

Like which ones? And even if they were'nt, that doesn't mean there wasn't an analogue compressor or reverb processing the sound, or a analogue console summing the mix. The thing about TRANCE music, it is a form of EDM that software does have a fighting chance because of how busy the music is, it is a bit of a mirage, there is so much going on that the sum of the parts becomes more important than individual great sounds. Still the best sounding Trance 90s and early 2000s, likely was heavily made with Analogue equipment, the DROP in quality has occured in the past few years because of the rise in software use to make music. A lot of people on TA hate trance music these days, I wonda wonda wonda why? Because its easy to make trance with software and sell it because of how busy the music is, hiding the individual sounds weaknesses, but that emotional and mind impact is still lost in translation, dropping the quality of the music.

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Originally posted by echosystm You do realise a lot (majority?) of the most popular trance classics weren't made on analog synths, right?

really? classics from what time period? before 2000 didnt most producers use analog? computers in those days didnt have the capacity or power to emulate and synthize like analog. i mean i guess its still not perfect but its a lot better today.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Like which ones?

Gouryella - Ligaya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTHrIPHCBK4

Rank 1 - Airwave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklWf13luH0

Rank 1 - Symsonic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IDORm-UAj4

Apoptygma Berzerk - Kathy's Song (Ferry Corsten Remix)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_woWno9l4

Push - Strange World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDlrZX0ge8

Countless others

"The" quintessential trance sound of this era is not from an analog synth, every producer should know that. Any producer who doesn't know this is a complete moron.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm Gouryella - Ligaya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTHrIPHCBK4 Rank 1 - Airwave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklWf13luH0 Rank 1 - Symsonic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IDORm-UAj4 Apoptygma Berzerk - Kathy's Song (Ferry Corsten Remix) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_woWno9l4 Push - Strange World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDlrZX0ge8 Countless others

Are you serious? What makes you think these were made entirely in software? If you want to change the argument to "he used a VST for some sounds" then you have a small argument, but that doesn't negate anything i've said as far as analogue processing. Ask Rank 1 "did you make that entirely in software? or did you do some analogue processing on the sounds?" I can safely speculate not a single one of those tracks were made entirely on Fruity Loops/Software Processing and then sent to mastering without any VA/analogue processing.

By the way, this topic deserves its own thread, if someone wants to talk in a seperate thread about this, make it, otherwise im done with it here. And much of what I say is unpopular and politically incorrect on good ole TA, but as long as even one person has an epiphany someday and realises what im saying will be beneficial to their future, even though they disagree today, that is all that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm Gouryella - Ligaya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTHrIPHCBK4 Rank 1 - Airwave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklWf13luH0 Rank 1 - Symsonic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IDORm-UAj4 Apoptygma Berzerk - Kathy's Song (Ferry Corsten Remix) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_woWno9l4 Push - Strange World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDlrZX0ge8 Countless others "The" quintessential trance sound of this era is not from an analog synth, every producer should know that. Any producer who doesn't know this is a complete moron.

haha, i thought you meant real classics. and how do you know if they were done completely without hardware?

he was outside the studio window on a tree with binoculars

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Originally posted by hadi ****** how do you know if they were done completely without hardware?

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Are you serious? What makes you think these were made entirely in software?

At what point did I say anything about them being made in software?

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Originally posted by echosystm You do realise almost all of the most popular trance songs weren't made on analog synths, right?

Please tell me you guys aren't so retarded you don't know the difference between a digital synth and an analog synth... Oh wait, I remember that Kimset7 quote "analog synths and VSTs might be doing the same math, but they aren't running through the same veins".

My bad. No point in discussing this any further, you guys won't understand anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 The thing about TRANCE music, it is a form of EDM that software does have a fighting chance because of how busy the music is, it is a bit of a mirage, there is so much going on that the sum of the parts becomes more important than individual great sounds.

This sounds crazy to me. What other genres favor individual elements over the entire song as a mix?

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Im glad you understand my argument at least, but analogue is indeed objectively sonically better than digital. Just compare Vinyl Records to MP3 versions, and the argument should end there. Or compare 10 similar tracks made with Analogue equipment to 10 tracks made with only software, and 9 times out of 10 you will pick the Analogue sound in a blind test. I think there is an objective difference, I mean even low kbps music on Youtube that was made with Analogue equipment sounds better than a 320KBPS purely software made track you can get off beatport. Majority of the tracks I hear off Beatport dont do anything for me, because they were likely made only on software, which is why we have this problem with the increase of shitty music that buries the good music out there. Software is a means to an end, but not the best. To furthur elaborate on my argument, good music, actually.... brilliant music can be COMPOSED or written through software, by you or anyone here, but that brilliant SOUND that you hear in old records still cannot be achieved purely through software. And this why I'd like to see people getting more into hardware, EDM music would improve greatly because of it.

See you're referring to fidelity, but interpreting it as directly equal in all situations to a subjective goodness. Of course analogue will be of a higher fidelity, it's pure in that sense, we agree. However, just because some new fangled technology comes along and presents another way of doing something doesn't mean its necessarily worse. I know you like the general warm sound you get from analogue, and a lot of producers really want that, but that just improves a track, it in no way makes it.

Also to the supposed link between the increase in software use vs hardware and trance going downhill, that would be correlation, not causation. Note also that while that brilliant sound you refer to may only be achievable through analogue, wouldn't it stand to reason as well that there are sounds only possible through digital? Are we to completely disregard those sounds as inferior, even though there is no equal in the analogue realm?

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm At what point did I say anything about them being made in software? Please tell me you guys aren't so retarded you don't know the difference between a digital synth and an analog synth... Oh wait, I remember that Kimset7 quote "analog synths and VSTs might be doing the same math, but they aren't running through the same veins". My bad. No point in discussing this any further, you guys won't understand anything.

Im still scratching my head, what is the point your exactly making with music that was not made entirely on software? Are you helping me prove my points? The Broad term of Hardware i've been using encompasses (Analogue/VA/Digital). So if your trying to make a point that those sounds were made with NON Analogue hardware synths, you still aren't negating my argument which is primarily hardware vs software. I use the word Analogue because the best Hardware is Analogue, not because Analogue is the only hardware that is good. VA and Digital Synths are improving in quality, but they are still not software VSTs. So again, are you making your trademark useless point?

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm At what point did I say anything about them being made in software? Please tell me you guys aren't so retarded you don't know the difference between a digital synth and an analog synth... Oh wait, I remember that Kimset7 quote "analog synths and VSTs might be doing the same math, but they aren't running through the same veins". My bad. No point in discussing this any further, you guys won't understand anything.

confusion. i wasnt even thinking in that direction, iw as just thinking hardware and software. haha

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 So again, are you making your trademark useless point?

No.

You claimed that you must have hardware to make good music. Those songs all use VA hardware. VA hardware and VSTs are the same thing. Hence, your point is false and so is your mindless claim that software will become extinct in future. This is even ignoring the many types of synthesis that can't ever be achieved in analog hardware, but can in software.

If you are going to start the VA vs. VST debate again, go and do a computer science or software engineering degree first. Until then, you're a dipshit who doesn't know anything. There is no point in talking about such things when you have absolutely no understanding of how a digital synth works.

<3

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir [b]See you're referring to fidelity, but interpreting it as directly equal in all situations to a subjective goodness.[/b. Of course analogue will be of a higher fidelity, it's pure in that sense, we agree. However, just because some new fangled technology comes along and presents another way of doing something doesn't mean its necessarily worse. I know you like the general warm sound you get from analogue, and a lot of producers really want that, but that just improves a track, it in no way makes it. Also to the supposed link between the increase in software use vs hardware and trance going downhill, that would be correlation, not causation. Note also that while that brilliant sound you refer to may only be achievable through analogue, wouldn't it stand to reason as well that there are sounds only possible through digital? Are we to completely disregard those sounds as inferior, even though there is no equal in the analogue realm?

Actually I did the opposite. I said, music that was made on Hardware in the past sounds better, EVEN at a much lesser kbps than music that is made today on only software and rendered at a higher kbps. Meaning that even with a lower fidelity, the mind and emotional impact of the music is STILL more prevalent in music that is made on hardware than the newest music that is made at the highest resolutions on software.

And the link between the drop in quality of trance music and the amount of poor EDM, Rock, Hip Hop, music in general is not a correlation, but a rather damning objective observation.

Keep diggin that hole Kismet7

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm No. You claimed that you must have hardware to make good music. Those songs all use VA hardware. VA hardware and VSTs are the same thing. Hence, your point is false and so is your mindless claim that software will become extinct in future. If you are going to start the VA vs. VST debate again, go and do a computer science or software engineering degree first. Until then, you're a dipshit who doesn't know anything. There is no point in talking about such things when you have absolutely no understanding of how a digital synth works. <3

No. VSTs and VA's arent sonically equal (I know your going to make the USELESS point about technicals.) Instead, explain why people would pay for a VA sound over a VST sound, and why VA's sound better than VST's. And dont rely on schematics, when reality says they aren't equal sonically. I dont need a computer sci degree to be able to hear a difference between VST's and VA's.

And I didn't say software will become extinct in the future, as usual you twist words, I said producers are realising the greatest sound can't be achieved through only software, and they are gravitating towards hardware. I never said software would be extinct, but since you are in a coma as usual, and have selective listening always on, i've been saying the best setup is a Hybrid of Hardware + Software. And I think software will always be part of successful music making,to add to taht I think software could improve over time, but at the moment the best sound comes from Analogue Hardware, followed by VA's and Digital.

::sigh::

quote:

Originally posted by Aesthetic Keep diggin that hole Kismet7

Keep your head up your ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Actually I did the opposite. I said, {b}I think[/b] music that was made on Hardware in the past sounds better, EVEN at a much lesser kbps than music that is made today on only software and rendered at a higher kbps. Meaning that even with a lower fidelity, the mind and emotional impact of the music on me is STILL more prevalent in music that is made on hardware than the newest music that is made at the highest resolutions on software. And the link between the drop in quality of trance music and the amount of poor EDM, Rock, Hip Hop, music in general is not a correlation, but a rather damning objective observation.

Fixed the first part to actually be objective OH GOD why can't you understand what I'm trying to tell you.

As per the second paragraph, its NOT causational, it's correlational. There is absolutely no proof to back your point. You may have a valid point, but until you back it up with facts (cite plz, or else they're not facts, they're opinions), then its just you yelling your opinion more.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir Fixed the first part to actually be objective OH GOD why can't you understand what I'm trying to tell you. As per the second paragraph, its NOT causational, it's correlational. There is absolutely no proof to back your point. You may have a valid point, but until you back it up with facts (cite plz, or else they're not facts, they're opinions), then its just you yelling your opinion more.

I'd attribuate your inability to objectively tell the difference between the quality of EDM music made in the 80s and 90s using purely hardware, to the crap music that is made purely on software today, to being at some level deaf. Furthermore, the inability to observe the drop in quality of music that is made, signed, and released in modern times to the music of the past to blindness and again deafness. So no, no opinions here, just objective observations.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 And I didn't say software will become extinct in the future

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 The days of software being a good means of making good sound are kinda coming to an end

...

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Instead, explain why people would pay for a VA sound over a VST

1. Physical interface
2. Resale value
3. Wank factor

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 and why VA's sound better than VST's.

They don't. Any of those songs I posted before could be done in software. You can get a better supersaw out of any decent VST than you can out of a JP8000. Many people have sold their JPs because of this... Solar Project on this forum is a good example (he would annihilate you at sound design, so don't even go there).

The only reason a Virus TI hasn't been made as a native VST is because they would only be able to charge a few hundred dollars for it. By putting it in a pretty box, they can make you pay more for it, because it makes you think it is so much more "elite". You aren't paying for the sound, you are paying for the three things I stated above.

"I'm a real producer now because my software is in a pretty box with midi control" - this is what you sound like to anyone who understands how a DSP works.

I know how much you blindly follow the "expert advice" of well known producers, so here's a fun fact for you... I used to talk to Benno from Rank 1 on the net. He sold all his VAs a few years ago, because he knew they were just software in a pretty box. He said he uses Reaktor more than any of his hardware.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm ... 1. Physical interface 2. Resale value 3. Wank factor They don't. The only reason a Virus TI hasn't been made as a native VST is because they would only be able to charge a few hundred dollars for it. By putting it in a pretty box, they can make you pay more for it, because it makes you think it is so much more "elite". You aren't paying for the sound, you are paying for the three things I stated above. "I'm a real producer now because my software is in a pretty box with midi control" - this is what you sound like to anyone who understands how a DSP works. I know how much you blindly follow the "expert advice" of well known producers, so here's a fun fact for you... I used to talk to Benno from Rank 1 on the net. He sold all his VAs a few years ago, because he knew they were just software in a pretty box. He said he uses Reaktor more than any of his hardware.

Ok so... VSTs and VAs sound sonically the same. ::sigh::

Thanks for the crazy idea, gonna go eat dinner. I'll be back later to slap a hoe.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Ok so... VSTs and VAs sound sonically the same. ::sigh::

The Virus algorithms running on your computer, instead of a DSP, would sound absolutely identical. In fact, it would actually sound better, since it would not be subject to the degradation of being converted from digital to analog, then back to digital again.

Once again, do a computer science or engineering degree, then try to debate this with me. Until then, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 I'd attribuate your inability to objectively tell the difference between the quality of EDM music made in the 80s and 90s using purely hardware, to the crap music that is made purely on software today, to being at some level deaf. Furthermore, the inability to observe the drop in quality of music that is made, signed, and released in modern times to the music of the past to blindness and again deafness. So no, no opinions here, just objective observations.

I disagree, therefore I am deaf! How splendid, what a rigorous, fact and logic-based argument!
CHANGE in quality, my friend. A lot of that analogue warmth that people tout so highly was not superior circuitry or anything of the sort, but in fact subtle distortion and whatnot, due to the fact that the circuitry was in fact not perfect. YOU MAY LIKE THIS SOUND BETTER, THAT IS FINE, but in a strict sense, higher 'quality' would suggest a lack of disturbances such as distortion and the like that are what give those analogue synths that warmth.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir I disagree, therefore I am deaf! How splendid, what a rigorous, fact and logic-based argument! CHANGE in quality, my friend. A lot of that analogue warmth that people tout so highly was not superior circuitry or anything of the sort, but in fact subtle distortion and whatnot, due to the fact that the circuitry was in fact not perfect. YOU MAY LIKE THIS SOUND BETTER, THAT IS FINE, but in a strict sense, higher 'quality' would suggest a lack of disturbances such as distortion and the like that are what give those analogue synths that warmth.

psssstttt....

::whispers::
your moving the yard sticks and changing what is important in this topic.

Now you want to make the case that vst is better than analogue because the lack of distortion and "disturbances" that is found in digital? Buh buh buh what about emotional and mental impact? Is moving people important, or clean sounds important?

If you prefer clean, good for you. Objectively, Analogue sounds better to me, and if I had the choice between the two, id go with Analogue, and then VA over purely software.

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