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Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility?

Those were issues in 1999, not 2009. Welcome to the new decade.

And I mean "out of the box" no configuration required. You have to install wine and the restricted-extras. Both of those are 1 command each. With that you can do anything a normal windows user can do. And if you can't, you will in 2 months.

People don't use Linux because A. they don't know it exists, and B. they haven't used it in 20 years and think its still a clunky command prompt UNIX system used to run servers.

In the last 8 or so years Linux desktop distros have doubled their capacity each year almost.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility? Those were issues in 1999, not 2009. Welcome to the new decade. And I mean "out of the box" no configuration required. You have to install wine and the restricted-extras. Both of those are 1 command each. With that you can do anything a normal windows user can do. And if you can't, you will in 2 months. People don't use Linux because A. they don't know it exists, and B. they haven't used it in 20 years and think its still a clunky command prompt UNIX system used to run servers. In the last 8 or so years Linux desktop distros have doubled their capacity each year almost.

Do you use Linux or Ubuntu ?

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Originally posted by cronodevir Ok? They forced people to use blu-ray because they stopped supporting the HD format in their releases. And they did that only because they thing it will make it harder to copy media, and for no other reason. Had nothing to do with marketing in the advertisement sense. People in general don't make preferences, they are given a preference and they accept it.

I'm only responding this part because it's a separate topic from the Linux nerd-rage.

HD-DVD was doomed from the start. I'm not sure who "they" are here, but HD-DVD was pushed principally by Toshiba, and Blu-Ray was backed by Sony. Sony owns half of the recording industry and just fought a better battle in general, so they won. Toshiba only gave up on HD-DVD when their market share got so low that it just wasn't profitable anymore.

There was never any material difference in copy-protection capability between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

Everybody thinks of the format war as being between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but in fact it was really between Blu-Ray and standard DVD. People already had huge DVD libraries and DVD equipment. The industry had to convince us to upgrade. They could not have done this without a significantly improved product - and of course Sony made a few smart moves along the way like putting Blu-Ray support into the PS3.

People don't just gobble up whatever they're offered if it involves a major learning curve and shelling out huge wads of cash. I know lots of people who are using 5-year-old computers, and a few people who are using 10-year-old computers. Sure, there are always a few geeks, early adopters, who don't mind spending hours or days or weeks researching a new technology and buying the insanely expensive equipment and diddling around forever setting it up and getting it to work and cooperate with all of the other technology, but for the vast majority, upgrading is an imposition. It's a chore. It's a last resort.

People don't want to upgrade, and they definitely don't want to be given choices they don't care about, such as whether to buy HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, or install KDE or Gnome, or encode in FLAC vs. MP3. People - myself included - just want shit to work properly so they can get things done.

I speak on behalf of almost every consumer to almost every manufacturer: DON'T give me more options. I have too many to worry about already. You are the designer, it's YOUR job to figure out how to get the best sound and the best picture with the best performance and the easiest UI and the smallest size and whatever else, and that WILL involve trade-offs, which WILL require you to make difficult decisions, and if you make the wrong ones, you WILL be blamed for marketing a piece of crap. That's how the world works. You can't escape your responsibilities by offloading all of those tough decisions to me, the user; I'm not interested, and I will just buy from someone else who isn't lazy. I will do that even if your product is free, because my time is not worthless. Get it?

ive tried ubuntu a few times, yes its easy to install and it seems stabile and its good that its free etc etc but you know what? it doesnt do anything its just an operative system and nothing more. i found it tricky to play my mp3 in a logical way and i couldnt arrange my files as fast as i wanted and i couldnt find a mediaplayer that worked like i wanted. if ubuntu had winamp i would consider it for second PC.

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Originally posted by DigiNut myself included - just want shit to work properly so they can get things done.

So why are you using Windows?

I'm not a Linux-rager, you are just not making sense to me, you want things to just 'work'..yet you use an OS that is incapable of just 'working'

It boggles the mind I tell ya!

For the blu-ray stuff, what ever you have to tell yourself. Changes in the economy of technology don't happen because of what any of the consumers do. Formats are made and pushed, and technologies are invented based on what ever benefits the companies. We use the very unstable blu-ray format now because sony said they can stop piracy. And hollywood bought into it. And because of that crap we are stuck with an inferior format.

As for the guy above. Winamp does work on Linux, though I don't know why you would want that bloatware. Get Amarok it does everything winamp does. I think your issue was more you not knowing how to do what you want, not so much of the OS not capable of doing what you want.

A perfect example of bad usability right there by Palm.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility?

Everywhere.

Linux is incompatible and inconsistent because there are tons of distributions which require you to compile your software according to those specs for it to work (reading about these troubles on a certain music forum a lot). A normal user doesn't want to bother with these things. The lack of native and/or company driver support for linux on a lot of products makes it incompatible as well. This in turn affects the usability in a negative sense as well.

It's inconsistent because of all these different distributions with different specifications and interfaces. The differences/advantages/disadvantages of each distribution are unclear to average pc-users and thus they don't understand which they should pick and rather stay away from it.

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Originally posted by DigiNut hd-dvd vs blu-ray

Exactly. Another older example was the VHS versus Betacam. While Betacam was better than our dear old VHS video-tape there was a better marketing strategy planned by the VHS. Which was the reason people adopted VHS instead of Betacam. Same logic applies on the hd-dvd vs blu ray case. Sony created a potential market by effectively including their technology in new products with good sales.

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Originally posted by Storyteller A perfect example of bad usability right there by Palm. Everywhere. Linux is incompatible and inconsistent because there are tons of distributions which require you to compile your software according to those specs for it to work (reading about these troubles on a certain music forum a lot). A normal user doesn't want to bother with these things. The lack of native and/or company driver support for linux on a lot of products makes it incompatible as well. This in turn affects the usability in a negative sense as well. It's inconsistent because of all these different distributions with different specifications and interfaces. The differences/advantages/disadvantages of each distribution are unclear to average pc-users and thus they don't understand which they should pick and rather stay away from it.

You have to compile software on Linux? Been using it for years, ive never had to do that. Apt-get is your friend. Ive never had driver issues either.

I think the issue has nothing to do with compatibility or consistency, it has to do with people being to lazy or unwilling to learn how a computer should work. And if that is the case they shouldn't be using a PC.

Though someone who has been using "Click Next" windows for 20 years, I don't blame them for being content.

I was in a discussion about MDI and SDI GUI recently. Very similar to this.

vhs stuff:

During this format war there was no company pushing a certain format in order to gain more control over the content people are exposed to. In blu-ray vs hddvd this is the case. That is the crux of the format war between blu-ray and hddvd. Which format gave companies more control over what people were exposed to. And piracy was used as the excuse for these bogus ass features in blu-ray.

And DRM is an issue, I'm on a certain video game company forum full of people who are basically admitting to pirating a game made in 2009 because of the copy-protection that it has and how it installs rootkit technology without the person knowing and degrades performance.

Google starforce. Stuff like this degrades performance majorly. And with moves like blu-ray this technology will be even more and more shoved into everything. Windows Vista is a perfect example. Because of "protection" technology doing anything in vista requires twice the amount of resources as it does in XP.

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Originally posted by cronodevir You have to compile software on Linux? Been using it for years, ive never had to do that. Apt-get is your friend. Ive never had driver issues either.

Are you using Linux right now ?

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Originally posted by cronodevir I don't know why you would want that bloatware. Get Amarok it does everything winamp does. I think your issue was more you not knowing how to do what you want, not so much of the OS not capable of doing what you want.

i want winamp beacuse it does exaclty what i want it to do and i dont want to learn anything new as my mind is trying to focus on something else. winamp allows me to put tracks easily into my ipod too so it has everything i need and more. and thats all i want from my mediaplayer so why change to something else? this is also the reason why im having a hard time moving away from Propellerhead Reason, beacuse it runs flawless and it does almost everything i need it to and i know everything about it. Sorry but im trying to move this thread into topic again. Im trying hard to like to mac and logic but having hard time as Ive been on windows since 92 or something (3.1 anyone?) and its sort of tricky changing without huge effort. If i had to do that with every little peace of software too id never bother and rather pay my bills from my work computer. Your HD-DVD vs Blue Ray debate aint important either beacuse u still get normal DVDs which is good enough for many. People dont want anything new, its already too much out there. Overfloading junk planet. Im running mac right now btw and i just think its slower than windows, im running bootcamp on a mac mini and windows is faster than Mac OSX, no doubt. This was the experience with ubuntu too it was too slow for simple tasks like moving files, playing music and browsing internet.

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Originally posted by Subtle Are you using Linux right now ?

No, Cubase doesn't run on Linux. Cubase isn't your average user program either. :P Though, I'm about to drop Cubase anyways, so who knows.

--

palm:

You mention not wanting to switch to linux and stuff, so why are you trying to use mac and logic? Your going to have to learn new stuff with mac also. As for Ubuntu running slow, don't use the PC from 92 then :P

This "i want things easy" mentality doesn't help software and the future of computing in anyway.

In 2019 your PC will be nothing more than an Xbox with a keyboard and mouse, and all your software will be available Only through an xbox live type of service. You will have absolutly no control over your pc in any way. And because you have to use a proprietary service to get any software, you won't be able to mod or change that machine because of TPM like technology. And don't forget since the software service will be controlled by one company, so will every piece of content on it. Of course you also have to add in every single charge they will tack on for the software you want to download. Imagin trying to be an artist, any hardware you try to attach to this "pc" [if it even allows 3rd party peripherals] will need to be verified by the company before its allowed access to the cpu. There goes any hardware you thought you were going to use in music production, and after that, you will need permission to upload your music [if they allow it] to share with anyone. With this being the case, a few years later they could make it illegal to have a computer not part of this system. They can make up any excuse they want, piracy, terrorism, what ever. The pc will be like the television, you accept what is on it or you don't use it.

This system is already in existence, its called Xbox live. Now just transpose that system on to general pcs.

That is the goal of companies like Trusted Computing, who ARE winning this battle.

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Originally posted by cronodevir No, Cubase doesn't run on Linux. Cubase isn't your average user program either. :P Though, I'm about to drop Cubase anyways, so who knows.

Yeah there you go. Discussion over.

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Originally posted by Subtle Yeah there you go. Discussion over.

Windows doesn't run Amarok, so windows is bad.

Discussion over. [this is what you just said]

ps Cubase only works on linux if you use the h20 dongle emulator, because cubase uses an obscure dongle technology used by no one else, so there isn't much incentive to implement it into Wine.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Windows doesn't run Amarok, so windows is bad. Discussion over. [this is what you just said]

I have had it with you, you are a total waste of time.

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Originally posted by Subtle I have had it with you, you are a total waste of time.

A waste of time because I decimated your point? Nice.

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Originally posted by cronodevir A waste of time because I decimated your point? Nice.

Because you contradicting yourself all the time, and all you do is argue on and on and on, even if you are proven wrong again and again.

The fact that you are saying that Linux is the shit and does everything Windows can and more, and still you manage to actually:


USE WINDOWS YOURSELF

Says it all.

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Originally posted by Subtle Because you contradicting yourself all the time, and all you do is argue on and on and on, even if you are proven wrong again and again. The fact that you are saying that Linux is the shit and does everything Windows can and more, and still you manage to actually: USE WINDOWS YOURSELF Says it all.

Its a fallacy to say that because I say one thing, but do another, that my statement is wrong. Fail.

I should take a break from this forum for awhile..I start learning how ignorant people are and can do nothing but fight them.

No one has proven my opinion wrong once in this thread.
So why don't you shut the fuck up and go some where, drama queen? We are having a simple discussion about OSes and you come in trying to be a debtor. And you failed at that. No one is debating anything, and this isn't [wasn't] and argument. Learn etiquette before you open your mouth. Always gotta have SOMEONE to fuck up a thread. Just because people are talking and disagreeing on topics doesn't mean a debate is going on. We are discussing our opinions on OS, yeah it went offtopic so? The bit-rate topic isn't any more sane. And no one is forcing their opinion on anyone else.

Well, no more OS talk, lets talk about bit-rates.

32bit-rate is no real different than 16-bit in general. Yes it matters in EDM. Wow, thread is done.

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Originally posted by cronodevir palm: You mention not wanting to switch to linux and stuff, so why are you trying to use mac and logic? Your going to have to learn new stuff with mac also. As for Ubuntu running slow, don't use the PC from 92 then :P

beacuse im not 100% happy with Reason and its limitations, and the other daws ive tried in windows (see cubase, ableton, sonar, reaper) didnt just do it for me, so im hoping that logic will work for me beacuse i need a standard daw that provides good support and knowledge on the internet that has most possible devices included to an affordable price. logic has all that and also provides high quality mixing possibilities so if it works for me I will have all i need there. I would anyway need windows forever beacuse of gaming etc so bootcamp really saved my day here recently, im gonna sell my 1992 QuadCore PC from last year and save for an iMac instead and just be standard. No more special solutions for me, i got enough with my homestereo which is now all DIY lol, pics comming up soon.

Well, Ive not used Logic so I don't know much about it, Reason is pretty darn limited. All I can say is if you want windows, then try cubase or flstudio. I would say ableton also, but from the ableton thread I understand its not the best atm. I mostly support flstudio because its what ive used for years, ive been trying cubase, and i mostly end up pissed off [key editor] and load up flstudio instead.

eyah ive tried all that and i hated it, im very unpatient. cubase didnt even give me sound lol. Reaper is the best windows app ive tried so far but the plugins is so fucking homemade and ugly and messy. Doesnt inspire me at all. Fruity just gives me ejay assosiations. Ableton seems to be more a DJ or live prog imo and not good at sequencing. Nor the plugins, sounds too minimal lol. So logic it will be, just need time on it and a better comp, as said im on Mac Mini now.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility?

Are you seriously this much of a blind fanboy? I can tell you are new to Linux, because you remind me of myself, except I was 15 when I went through this stage. Anyone who has been using Linux for a long time knows that it is just about completely useless for anything other than servers and specific applications (eg. embedded systems).

Problems I have with Linux:
1. 99.9% of VSTs are not ported.
2. Microsoft Office formats are not supported (OpenOffice sucks).
3. No semi-decent native DAW.
4. No Photoshop equivalent (GIMP does not compare).
5. Flash plugin performance eats a dick.
6. Hardly any commercial games are ported.
7. Etc.

So, what can we conclude from the above? Even my mum and dad, who have the most basic computer needs, can not use Linux. Their documents for work will come out completely fucked up using OpenOffice and their computer will hang like a mofo just trying to watch a YouTube video. No developer can use Linux, because most of the time they will be coding for Windows. No designer can use Linux because there just aren't any programs available. No gamer can use Linux unless they want to deal with Wine and constant crashing. No producer can use Linux, unless they are prepared to buy a fucktonne of hardware, just for simple things like EQ. Personally, I don't want to buy 10+ hardware EQs.

Who CAN use Linux? A bunch of blind fanboys who have no connection to reality and want to make their life harder, by running everything in a virtual machine or Wine.

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Originally posted by echosystm Are you seriously this much of a blind fanboy? I can tell you are new to Linux, because you remind me of myself, except I was 15 when I went through this stage. Anyone who has been using Linux for a long time knows that it is just about completely useless for anything other than servers and specific applications (eg. embedded systems). Problems I have with Linux: 1. 99.9% of VSTs are not ported. 2. Microsoft Office formats are not supported (OpenOffice sucks). 3. No semi-decent native DAW. 4. No Photoshop equivalent (GIMP does not compare). 5. Flash plugin performance eats a dick. 6. Hardly any commercial games are ported. 7. Etc. So, what can we conclude from the above? Even my mum and dad, who have the most basic computer needs, can not use Linux. Their documents for work will come out completely fucked up using OpenOffice and their computer will hang like a mofo just trying to watch a YouTube video. No developer can use Linux, because most of the time they will be coding for Windows. No designer can use Linux because there just aren't any programs available. No gamer can use Linux unless they want to deal with Wine and constant crashing. No producer can use Linux, unless they are prepared to buy a fucktonne of hardware, just for simple things like EQ. Personally, I don't want to buy 10+ hardware EQs. Who CAN use Linux? A bunch of blind fanboys who have no connection to reality and want to make their life harder, by running everything in a virtual machine or Wine.

Funny, FLStudio with Full VSTi support and Paintshop Pro 9 both run on Ubuntu...out of the box. Your parents should be slapped for using proprietary office software, its their fault they have vendor lock in and are forced to use crappy Ms products. Flash problem? You just made that up. Name a game, and it runs on ubuntu.

You are forgetting Wine , it runs up to direct x 10 compatible games. Without configuration needed. And of course it runs DAW with VSTi support, and programs like paintshop or photoshop. And wine was doing this 4 years ago. There is no need to port shit over when it runs natively on Linux with Wine. Think of wine as simply a library or resource used to enable windows software on linux. And it does just that. Porting is not needed. And there is no :constant crashing"..lol You are just making shit up. These problems don't happen if you know how to use the OS, and its the same in windows. Also, MS Office works with Wine.

The only program that I can think of that people use mainstream that doesn't work in wine is Cubase. Give it a couple months and it will work.

You guys are thinking about Linux 10 years ago. Seriously..problems with Flash? I'm in the ubuntu tech support channel 24/7 ive not heard of problems with flash for atleast 6 years. And even then the problems were with the users computer, not the os or the flash libraries.




OR..you can use windows vista which crashes upon loading a .jpg file 90% of the time.

This discussion is fairly old. Anyone else want to bring it up again? The general idea is, I think most of you are full of shit and don't know/understand linux, or you DO but your just stubborn. And you all likely think i'm full of shit. So now that discussion has been concluded. Its the internet, you guys are wrong, get used to it

Nice post by echosystm.

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Originally posted by cronodevir I think the issue has nothing to do with compatibility or consistency, it has to do with people being to lazy or unwilling to learn how a computer should work. And if that is the case they shouldn't be using a PC.

Thank you!

You're spot on, and that's why linux only has little potential. People don't use it because they don't know it, because it is different from what they know, because it works differently than what they know, because they don't want to spend time on learning a new OS ot to find new software alternatives for microsoft office etc etc. They want an OS to think for them, it's a given fact. I build web-based applications and usability is by far the most important thing in the end. If it doesn't work like a person expects it to they stay away and I don't get paid. Same with linux, it is not windows so they don't want it. The only advantage linux has is that it is mostly free. But people will gladly pay in order to get what they expect.

Incompatibility, inconsistency and bad usability in one paragraph!

Anyways I'm out, this discussion is retarded(ly offtopic). Good luck with linux. I bet it will only take a couple of months for you to switch back to windows hahaha.

I switched back after 2 days when I tried!

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Originally posted by palm Reaper is the best windows app ive tried so far but the plugins is so fucking homemade and ugly and messy. Doesnt inspire me at all.

I agree some look a little basic but the coding behind them gives them a really good sound. I've appreciated them more when I made a conscious effort to use them instead of my normal go-to EQs and compressors.

Plus they have parameter modulation when you can use any parameter to modify any other paramter in a vst or vsti. So simple to feed the sidechain on a kick to a lo-eq gain etc

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Originally posted by cronodevir Funny, FLStudio with Full VSTi support

Ok, now try running Korg Legacy, a UAD plugin, Nexus... Yeah, fail.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Paintshop Pro 9

lol.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Your parents should be slapped for using proprietary office software, its their fault they have vendor lock in and are forced to use crappy Ms products.

Blatant idealistic fanboyism right here man. My parents can't afford to have compatibility problems with their documents, because their jobs depend on it. When my dad e-mails off a quote for a big money contract, what do you think his clients would think if the document was all messed up? This is a perfect example of the reality-disconnection phenomena lol.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Flash problem? You just made that up.

See how much RAM and CPU your typical Flash page uses on Linux vs. Windows. Open up a few tabs and you're guaranteed to be in stutter-mania. Flash support for Linux is well known to be totally crap.

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Originally posted by cronodevir And of course it runs programs like paintshop or photoshop. And wine was doing this 4 years ago... Also, MS Office works with Wine.

Ok, tell me how much fun you have getting Adobe CS4 running lol. Same goes for Office 2007, Visual Studio and just about every other program I can't live without.

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Originally posted by cronodevir You guys are thinking about Linux 10 years ago.

I use Linux every day and have probably done so since before you even knew what it was

You're going to wake up one day and be like "fuck I can't believe I wasted x months/years on this shit". I love Linux, but it is only useful for a very small number of things, most of which are not in the desktop arena. However, it is very good at those things.

Storyteller : All that sounds like a problem with the user, not the OS. Its not supposed to cater to windows. That would defeat the purpose. But hey if people want to stay with borked windows, let them, that means less asinine question in Linux tech support.

echsystem with the way the economy is, your dad won't have to make any more documents :P

I have no need to "switch back to windows"...only reason I'm on it now was to try cubase. And cubase failed the test so it won't be used, I can switch back now and have no problems doing what I already do now.

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