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by filler , i meant a track that is used as a track to build to or follow a anthem or what ever you want to call it.

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Originally posted by Domesticated A "filler" track and a shit track are not the same thing.

they are where i come from I like all my tunes to have a melody to die for.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN they are where i come from I like all my tunes to have a melody to die for.

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Originally posted by RichieV by filler , i meant a track that is used as a track to build to or follow a anthem or what ever you want to call it.

Exactly. Richie is right. A filler still has a great melody and unique sound, it's just not an anthem. Trance DJs long ago lost the art of using filler tracks effectively.

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Originally posted by Domesticated Exactly. Richie is right. A filler still has a great melody and unique sound, it's just not an anthem. Trance DJs long ago lost the art of using filler tracks effectively.

cool, so i can blame them then?

I really just play a set I think I'd like to hear. I try to have flow and different tracks etc- but im still more of an anthem slut than anything. I can't help it, honest.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but im still more of an anthem slut

most people call it bad djing. Or perhaps every professional dj just doesn't have access to all your awesome tracks. Maybe that is why they don't do what you do.

People like you don't dj. You just play 10 hits for 1 hour and everyone is so fucked that they dont' care. You are a hack. I would forget the harmonic mixing and go back to basics.

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Originally posted by RichieV most people call it bad djing. Or perhaps every professional dj just doesn't have access to all your awesome tracks. Maybe that is why they don't do what you do. People like you don't dj. You just play 10 hits for 1 hour and everyone is so fucked that they dont' care. You are a hack. I would forget the harmonic mixing and go back to basics.

I was having a bit of fun with domesticated, I really need no elitist BS from one jaded fuckwit who doesn�t even like songs played together in key.

and you are the reason. Because djs like you, the ones that think djing is about playing the top 10 songs of each month in a set they probably rehearsed at home should not be mixing let alone trying to mix creatively.


When you said you were an anthem slut , and that you don't play filler tracks, were you joking ? It didnt seem like you were.

Because it was very very very not obvious.

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Originally posted by RichieV and you are the reason. Because djs like you, the ones that think djing is about playing the top 10 songs of each month in a set they probably rehearsed at home should not be mixing let alone trying to mix creatively. When you said you were an anthem slut , and that you don't play filler tracks, were you joking ? It didnt seem like you were. Because it was very very very not obvious.

Not to an American, anyway.

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Originally posted by RichieV and you are the reason. Because djs like you, the ones that think djing is about playing the top 10 songs of each month in a set they probably rehearsed at home should not be mixing let alone trying to mix creatively.

You don�t know the first fucking thing about me you ignorant little turd. Who are you to say what Djing is or is not about? If I want to DJ as a hobby in my spare time and drop epic trance numbers because that's the style I like then I will. And I wont give a shit about petulant elitists telling me im doing the wrong thing.

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Originally posted by RichieV When you said you were an anthem slut , and that you don't play filler tracks, were you joking ? It didnt seem like you were. SO were you joking ? Because it was very very very no obvious.

I was kinda joking with domesticated, but im still an anthem slut. I decide what an anthem is btw, not you. Because its my set. The fact is im one of only 2 uplifting trance DJs in the entire state and if I wanna bang out what I consider to be good tunes to people that hardly ever hear trance then I fucking will.

Djing for me (when im not supporting a known artist I mean) is about sharing my love for tunes with people that hopefully feel the same. You can take your spiritual journeys and your exacting flows and your underground boring tunes and stuff them right in your arse.

Had i known it was a hobby, i would not of been so harsh. Of course i suppose a dj with that mind set would not be doing it as a living so i should of assumed it was a hobby. I tend to give people the benifit of the doubt.

I'm sorry i offended you. I shouldn't assume every dj wants to be good. And i agree , in your situation , play what ever you want to play because it isn't a job for you and you shouldn't make something that should only be fun for you a chore with all that pressure tobe good.

Had i known it was a hobby, i would not of been so harsh. Of course i suppose a dj with that mind set would not be doing it as a living so i should of assumed it was a hobby. I tend to give people the benifit of the doubt.

I'm sorry i offended you. I shouldn't assume every dj wants to be good. And i agree , in your situation , play what ever you want to play because it isn't a job for you and you shouldn't make something that should only be fun for you a chore with all that pressure tobe good.

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Originally posted by Domesticated Not to an American, anyway.

i'm not. I am there for work.

Its ok, im happy to be called a shit DJ by people that have actually heard me play

And you're right, I don't want to be "good". Im strictly a hobbiest who enjoys the occasional gig, maybe even warming up/down for someone. I simply do not have a wide enough taste in music to ever justify any more than that.

i'm sorry

Sometimes working in music, you have this delusion that everyone wants to be a pro. Which is funny because i tell everyone that you have to be crazy to want to do music for a living. I sometimes really envy people that have normal jobs. I worked 40 hours no sleep to orchestrate a movie mock up 2 days ago and i had no choice, no overtime.And although i'm almost 30 in 2 years , i'm considered like a 16 year old. There is no job security. There is no health benefits , although i am still Canadian so i just go home. But i suppose i enjoy it because i am slightly nuts.

I really do think you have to be slightly crazy to want to do music. So much effort, so little reward, so much risk.

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Originally posted by Domesticated So it's not possible to play a set that's 90 or even 100% mixed in key but still features appropriate flow including breaks, builds and "filler"? If you genuinely think that, then you're kidding yourself. You're correct; there are many things more important than a sequence of keys. However, if a DJ can achieve good mixing, great set flow, excellent track selection, proper mood and all the other things a good jock does, as well as mixing in harmony a majority of the time, I don't see why you should have a problem with that.

Read two posts further than the one you quoted. There I wrote:

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DJSoulstone Once again: The priorities are the problem. If somebody wants to use HM he needs to learn first how to select tracks regarding mood, beat and melody breakdown structure to create a storyline. Only after this HM might make sense as a kind of polish, if you haven't learned it already on the fly.

So yes, I agree with you...
I can easily live wit not perfectly beatmatched sets or slightly mismatching keys. But I really don't like sets without a proper structure and flow.

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Originally posted by Darkarbiter So, I'm just reading through (some random section, link doesn't appear to link to start) and you mention how a minor and c major songs sound good together because they contain the same keys. Have you tried this? It doesn't sound harmonic. [edit] I see mention of how little melodic content in tracks means you can ignore lots of things. Well why bother at all?

It depends on the tracks - as with all of these supposed 'rules', it won't always work... you just need to exercise a bit of judgement, but more often than not you can make it work.

Major - minor mixes in particular can actually sound a bit odd sometimes because of the contrast, it can affect the feel of both tracks... some people may like it and others might not.


The part about "ignoring" major/minor-ness (which can only be applied in some situations, mind) is to free up the fact that so many people feel the "rules" of harmonic mixing limit what you can play - it's essentially an example (a fairly reliable example if you apply it appropriately) of when the so-called "rules" would say two tracks won't fit harmonically, when actually they may well do. And it's not about ignoring keys altogether, it's about noticing that actually in some circumstances certain keys will fit together which might not in other situations.

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Originally posted by Domesticated Exactly. Richie is right. A filler still has a great melody and unique sound, it's just not an anthem. Trance DJs long ago lost the art of using filler tracks effectively.

We've had this discussion on here before...

I ended up conceding that maybe "filler" isn't the right word to use because so many people just think of it with bad connotations.

But when I started that discussion it was on a similar note, trying to highlight that a set which is just a string of anthems all trying to be the biggest tune of the night can get stale fairly quickly.

That said, there are plenty of DJs who play like that and have a massive following - I think a lot of clubbers just react in terms of "wow, my favourite tune!" and the more times they think that in a night, the higher they rate the DJ. Fair enough, you like what you like, but it doesn't excite me and I think the majority of people who think they're anthem sluts who would actually enjoy a set with a lot of oscillation more if they gave it a chance (although you've also got the contrasting problem that loads of DJs steer clear of anything anthemic to be "underground" so it can be hard to find a good balanced DJ)

I see it as similar to all the nutters in the hard dance scene saying they want it hard as nails from the start of the night, but now that a lot of nights do exactly that they're finding that everyone burns out, gets bored and wants to go home at 2am. Wind back 5 years and those nights would start with groovy techno or house and nearly everyone would still be standing at 6 with grins on their faces. You can't always trust people to know what they like themselves


A bit off the HM topic, but hey

Well, I'd like to know a way how to key my tracks properly. They are all on vinyl and I don't have/play an instrument...

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Originally posted by Stu Cox We've had this discussion on here before... I see it as similar to all the nutters in the hard dance scene saying they want it hard as nails from the start of the night,

but i find those sets just all filler . Really fast filler. The only reason a song is good is because more others are bad. If you only play good songs, you make them all filler. That is why a dj can play the same song but it will sound better.

Filler tracks are actually the most important part of a djs arsenal. everyone has the hits. Knowing how to get from A to B, that is what matters and that is what filler tracks, in my mind do. And by filler , i just mean fill the space between anthems. They are more bass percussive with less drops. They are mixed quicker, they tend to have more room to mix so you can foreshadow an anthem.

My favorite thing to do was start off with lets say a slow passage that is obviously a hit and totally negate it with someoen that is not related in any way, and bring back that melody, still not completely established and then finally , you give them the song. It does make a big difference.

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Originally posted by RichieV well dr trance was too old I quit when i was in my early 20s. It was expensive and I wasn't the nicest person to any of the promoters. Not so much ego wise , I was just disgusted with alot of what i saw and I thaught being good was all that mattered and that is why I was booked. I was unfortunately young and not able to hold my tongue. I am lucky i never really got beat up because I said some stupid shit to stupid people ( that probably had guns) . I suppose i was sort of a dick to alot of the other djs because i thought they were absolute hacks and well , i'm sure you all realize how politics are and everything. I'm sure anyone in calgary will remember RichieV. Of course not a name i have ever attached to anything else. I could be the biggest asshole ever. Of course i thought it was funny and it was always directed at douche bag retards who i thought were complete losers. The type of people that lick mirrors in case the 10 cents of cocaine that might of been on might be wasted. The type of people that make sure everyone in the room knows they are a dj. I'm pretty sure it was only cool prior to 1995. Now it is like those nerds that say they are in a band. Oh a band eh. Sounds awesome. I stopped went to school and got a a masters degree and work a full time thing in music and although I still check up on some old friends , maybe you know Ben Lueng. One of the first producer student guys i had and he is doing quite well. Even djs for Nukleus. Goes by Rodie Style sometimes . NOt sure if its still big. Well i do miss it but i think the stress was not worth it for me. I don't think there is an age but i find you will evetually just get annoyed by all the fuckheads at your events. SOme people do it for different reasons. So guys i knew had 50 records and never bought any more so it was no investment and it is an outlet to get laid. Those people have no reason to quit. And I really never wanted to be apart of that. I did notice meeting the people that were still doing the same thing and i did tend to notice many had not grown emotionally in any way. Like their intellectual growth was stunted. NOt that it has to be that way. These people were into drugs and it didn't suprize me. But i don't think there is a definate age. I think some people enjoy the sense of feeling important and for alot of people, that is enough reason. But again , dr trance was too old. I think djing past 25 is probably bad just for the sake of your ears but of course you can just be really really carefull. I don't think most people are. I think djing is so much different now tho. Records were so damn expensive. I used to spend 200$ a week. I suppose the downsize is that there are just alot of peopel djing now because there are virtually no startup costs if you consider peopel don't buy their music. When i was even younger, i used to play in many bands and i don't think it is anything near as exciting as djing. Even playing in front of 1000 people as a band, there is just something weird about it. The problem with rock shows, is that it is always centered on the band and i think that it is really the main reason people love to just listen to a dj. A night should be about you , not the entertainment. But nothing beats a great band, unforunatly they only last for 1 hour. I think people need bring the rock en roll back to EDM . And i'm not talking about ego. One thing about stopping djing is that you can finally dance and not care. You dont' have to mingle with all the retard scenesters. You don't have to always be worried about how you look becasue people will always be looking for a reason to hate you. That part is nice because i hate seing bands live even tho i just said nothing beats a great band. I meant like in general. I wish more djs would stop djing if that isn't their thing. Not everyone can be a great producer. many academics in music theory couldn't write a symphony. I think more djs need to become an act. Not just some guy that does a set. People should only be able to get the experience from you. People should have their own edits so that nobody will ever be you. And with the tools now, it is so much easier. Before i go , i also wish djs were less competitive in regards to helping people that are good. Mentoring people is never bad for you. If they become bigger, they will always help you out. Remember that Ben guy i mentioned. Well i remmeber how everyone made fun of him and i thought he was a nice kid , a little dorky i suppose, but he is the only person out of that city to make a career. The only person which i think is fantastic because they treated him like shit. Exceopt he had something they couldn't get from flyering - talent.

ah, it is you

i remember richie from back in the day, one of the only djs i actually sent my mixes to, gave me good and honest feedback that really helped me along, you may remember me, maybe not (i was previously known as dj psylence), good to see you're still at it

naw i'm not still at it.

I work as an orchestrator for film and hopefully I get the chance to do movie scores and the like when i'm older. I do get a nostalgic feeling tho.

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Originally posted by RichieV Filler tracks are actually the most important part of a djs arsenal. everyone has the hits. Knowing how to get from A to B, that is what matters and that is what filler tracks, in my mind do. And by filler , i just mean fill the space between anthems. They are more bass percussive with less drops. They are mixed quicker, they tend to have more room to mix so you can foreshadow an anthem. My favorite thing to do was start off with lets say a slow passage that is obviously a hit and totally negate it with someoen that is not related in any way, and bring back that melody, still not completely established and then finally , you give them the song. It does make a big difference.

Totally agree with you.
I never understood why the perception of a filler is that it is a bad track.
Filler isn't really a term I use that much, I tend to look at it more along the lines of what a track does, is it an anthem, is it driving and percussive, does the crowd need to dance their asses off or do they need a break etc.
A lot of the 'Filler' tracks in my arsenal are actually tracks that I would deem to be better than some of the anthems I have.

I also agree with over all thread that the art of creating this balance has been lost to some extent. I like to give people a good workout and I don't think wall to wall anthems does that.

Cheers
Nem

But still I need a sort of tutorial for "How to key a track"
I wanna try it before I doom it...

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Originally posted by DJSoulstone But still I need a sort of tutorial for "How to key a track" I wanna try it before I doom it...

There's one in the first part of my harmonic mixing tutorial - grab a copy of Click MusicalKEYS (or some other program you can play notes with), lay some plastic down and get clicking. Assuming your decks are in the same room as your PC, that is. Otherwise, just turn it up loud enough for you to hear it from the other room

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