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-- what it takes to produce... do i have the hard part down already?
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Originally posted by cronodevir You though I was trying to insult Mozart. You saw an insult, where an insult was not located. You fail. I don't have the time or the will to explain to people below me what I meant. Read the whole thread, specifically 2 pages back. Maby that will give you insight to why I said it.

Um, no, that's not what I thought at all. I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion, but either way, you're the one who just failed. Double fail for spelling "maybe" as "maby".

So now you change your mind. That's not nice.

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Originally posted by cronodevir So now you change your mind. That's not nice.

I didn't change anything. You made a lame-ass condescending comment about other people's abilities, but because you knew that half of them are smarter than you and that nobody would take you seriously on your own merits, you tried invoking Mozart to give your post some air of authority. It didn't work, because you clearly know absolutely nothing about Mozart, much less how he would personally have reacted to comments posted on an internet forum.

Try casting your idiotic comment in a different context. Imagine a group of golfers having an OK game and a few of them start talking about their handicaps or their swings or whatever, and some asshole no doubt wearing a sideways ball cap and phat pants comes along and says "Hahaha, you guys, Tiger Woods would laugh his ASS off listening to you go on about this shit", and then starts playing the next hole with a wiffle ball and a stick. I think the overarching response to said shenanigans would be something along the lines of: "Who the fuck are you, and give me one good reason why I should let you walk away without this seven-iron wedged halfway up your ass?"

You made a comment that was beyond stupid, which you must have thought sounded very smart because you used the name of a famous classical composer at the beginning, but you were wrong. Stop trying to defend yourself and just sit down, shut up, and look sad.

Music is not complex, even Mozart, and its only the idiot that elevates his music to such a complex status. Someone who has no musical talent or ability would think ti was vastly complex. When it is at best average. People only think highly of it because it happened 200 or so years ago. There are classical musicians today who shit all over Mozart, but people don't give them the time of day.

That was my comment.

Now Diginut, stop trying to make yourself look smart by using big words you big ole ape. Because you are not winning, now, or ever. And you will not ever win. So just..shut up okay?

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Originally posted by cronodevir Music is not complex, even Mozart, and its only the idiot that elevates his music to such a complex status. Someone who has no musical talent or ability would think ti was vastly complex. When it is at best average. People only think highly of it because it happened 200 or so years ago. There are classical musicians today who shit all over Mozart, but people don't give them the time of day.

Certainly in the context of classical music, Mozart is not at the top of the complexity scale -- later composers wrote works that were much more elaborate. "Complexity" is relative, yes -- but Mozart's music is a lot more complex than a typical dance track. There's way more development of melodies and themes, modulation, harmonized layers, and use of varied tempo and dynamics.

Most dance tracks just bring a few simple melodies in and out for a couple hundred measures without even elaborating on them at all. The rhythms are nearly all 4/4 and repeat themselves every bar or two. Certainly the engineering process for making sounds and effects or mixing and mastering them can be tough and involve lots of creativity, but the resulting musical product is almost never as complicated as any run of the mill classical piece.

And who are these "classical musicians today who shit all over Mozart?"

Hans Zimmer is pretty awesome.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Certainly in the context of classical music, Mozart is not at the top of the complexity scale -- later composers wrote works that were much more elaborate. "Complexity" is relative, yes -- but Mozart's music is a lot more complex than a typical dance track. There's way more development of melodies and themes, modulation, harmonized layers, and use of varied tempo and dynamics. Most dance tracks just bring a few simple melodies in and out for a couple hundred measures without even elaborating on them at all. The rhythms are nearly all 4/4 and repeat themselves every bar or two. Certainly the engineering process for making sounds and effects or mixing and mastering them can be tough and involve lots of creativity, but the resulting musical product is almost never as complicated as any run of the mill classical piece. And who are these "classical musicians today who shit all over Mozart?"

You sure you want to just point to Dance music? What about Hip Hop or Pop or Country? Are they complex in comparison to classical music?
Electronic Music is and can be closer to classical music than any other popular genre. In harmony, chord progression, movements, arrangement, dynamics, nuance. However, Trance does not require elaborate musicality and complexity for the music to be enjoyable, and this the main reason why it isn't as "complex" as classical music, again nor does it need to be.

The important thing is, that the creation of electronic music has its complexities, attributes, and parameters that require the same amount of skill or intelligence that took Mozart to write his music. Classical music writers also have the luxury of a live person rendering the intention of the composer, while Electronic artists have to nurture and learn the equipment they utilize heavily to get anything of quality out of it. It is harder for an Electronic artist to take what is in the mind and translate that onto the canvas, than it is for a classical composer to recreate the melodies and progressions with the known parameters of the organic instruments available. A classical composer might know how to play the instruments he writes for, an Electronic artist has to know how to use the synths and machines and play them if they are hands on. A classical composer can write something, sit with a brilliant orchestra and great music is made. While an Electronic music composer has to learn every parameter of every instrument/technology he uses to create his music.

Any established electronic producer, and even non established producers including myself and others here could write very complex pieces of electronic music, but I don't think it would be appreciated as much as something that is danceable and consumable by the listener, the highest enjoyment of Electronic music doesn't really come from complexity. So with that said, complexity in Electronic music in general would exist (and does exist) if the listener is looking for that in the music they choose to listen to. But for the most part they are looking to dance and like listeners of most genres of music, to run away from the complexities of life. Not to break down harmonies, chord progessions, arranagements, movements, nuances, and so on in the music.

So what is the point? The complexity or simplicity of different genres of music does not signify greatness or intelligence, for even the most simple pieces of music can be brilliant, and it takes great vision, energy, and intelligence to turn something simple, into a piece of music that people can enjoy, as it takes for something complex to be enjoyable for the listener. For example, utilizing nuances in Minimal Techno or Deep House can be as powerful as a chord progression in Classical Music, one is doing less one is doing more, but they both require the same amount of intelligence and skill to create. Both are taking an equal risk, one is taking the risk of making something simple sound great to the listener, and the other is taking the risk of making something complex sound great to the listener.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 You sure you want to just point to Dance music? What about Hip Hop or Pop or Country? Electronic Music is and can be closer to classical music than any other popular genre. In harmony, chord progression, movements, arrangement.

Yes, it can be. I actually think electronic music offers the most opportunity for creating intricate, elaborate, expansive music, because with electronic tools you can manipulate absolutely everything about the sound. You aren't limited by what physical instruments and human performers can do. The first electronic music was created by classical composers who wanted to expand the possibilities of composition.

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So what is the point? The complexity or simplicity of different genres of music does not signify greatness or intelligence...

And I never said it did. There are plenty of bad pieces of music that are complex, and good ones that are simple. And I didn't say dance producers have no talent, or that creating good dance tracks is easy.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Music is not complex, even Mozart, and its only the idiot that elevates his music to such a complex status.

Mozart didn't have to worry about synth programming, EQ, compression, mastering, or any of that crap. There's a technical side to production that didn't exist back then.

Regardless, you yourself haven't demonstrated any hint of competence in either the musical or technical areas, so you have no business making condescending comments like that, and you especially have no business presuming to speak for someone who was famous all over the country at half your age.

Those technically things aren't hard...mastering is a 5-10 minute job in a wav editor. Requires basic textbook knowledge on how audio works. This is the problem with most EDM today, most artists are so bad they can't even produce a decent melody or composition, and so they try to mask their flaws by saying "but the technical stuff is the hard part" Bullshit, you suck as a musician, being good at technical stuff is no justification for failing at being a musician. Its like if you suck at painting, so instead you throw paint on a canvas like a monkey and call it abstract and try to pass it off as art...when no, its not art, its paint thrown on a canvas.

You can't just pick something out, call it hard, and use it as an excuse for a flaw you have at something. And when people laughable talk about how hard the technical stuff is, they are using it as a scapegoat. Really, if synth programming or EQ is something you consider "hard" then you are a very backward ass stone age kind of person. Because that is the simplest aspect of EDM. Mixing can be done with your eyes closed for fucks sake. Technical stuff hard..are you fucking shitting me? Humanity is devolving, meaning, people in general are getting stupider. This stuff isn't hard because its complex or something, its "hard" because most people are so mentally handicapped.

This is why I don't respect this place anymore, people are so pitiful. People who couldn't melody their way out of an elevator, saying technical textbook stuff is harder than creativity. WTF. That is like saying learning to play the violin is harder than writing your own full orchestra piece. That is what diginut said.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Those technically things aren't hard...mastering is a 5-10 minute job in a wav editor.

You really have an unjustifiably huge ego, to come in here and insult every person who has ever struggled with technical issues.

So...if all this stuff comes so easy to you, why aren't you pumping out high quality, professional-sounding tunes by the dozen and getting signed left and right?

Because my struggle is composing. And "getting signed and sounding professional" isn't the end goal.

Diginut was essentially saying that 'learning to use the tools', was harder than 'coming up with the thing you want to use the tools to build.'

Or, building a paintbrush is harder than painting a picture.

Building a cello is harder than composing a cellist piece.

Etc Etc...

When a person says using the tools is more of a struggle than composing a piece of music, to me this shows a lack of understanding how deep musical composition goes.

And yes mastering is a 5-10 minute job. Ive seen guys in a mastering studio do a whole album in an hour. This was for tracks that had clipping and needed an average RMS.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Because my struggle is composing. And "getting signed and sounding professional" isn't the end goal.

But if it's all so easy, why not just do it, hmm? Why would you deliberately avoid making money from your music?

If I remember right, the only tunes I've heard from you have been distinctly unimpressive in both the "technical" and "musical" senses, so I really don't understand where you get off having this enormous ego trip about how you must be so much smarter than people who struggle at different stuff than you do, much less making light of the skill of someone like Mozart, LOL. You're like a guy who beats his friend at a few games of chess and thinks he's ready to take on Vladimir Kramnik.

technical can make up for lack of music and vice versa.

i mean just listen to the timbre on some synths, you can play nursurey songs and make them sound cool.

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Originally posted by cronodevir This is why I don't respect this place anymore, people are so pitiful.

The feeling is entirely mutual. So why don't you just leave, permanently?

I've never met you but judging by your posts you seem to be a textbook case of NPD. You really should seek professional help.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But if it's all so easy, why not just do it, hmm? Why would you deliberately avoid making money from your music? If I remember right, the only tunes I've heard from you have been distinctly unimpressive in both the "technical" and "musical" senses, so I really don't understand where you get off having this enormous ego trip about how you must be so much smarter than people who struggle at different stuff than you do, much less making light of the skill of someone like Mozart, LOL. You're like a guy who beats his friend at a few games of chess and thinks he's ready to take on Vladimir Kramnik.

Because making money off music is stupid, I would go out of my way to ensure others don't, if I could. That is why I don't try to join a label or some other nonsense. If you want money, go do something productive. Don't smear the music world with shit music because you want to make a hundred bucks.

As far as my music goes..beats anything you could ever muster.

No one is on an Ego trip, I'm just astounded at the patheticness of artists these days. People are struggling at stuff you shouldn't be struggling. If a fat kid is struggling to do an obstical course, you don't sympathize with the fat kid, you blame him for allowing himself to be so flawed as to not finish the course. People who struggle on elementary things like EQ, are not in the right mindset to even consider themselves an musician. The basics are, do you know what each knob on the EQ does? Boom, then you should be a master at EQing things the way you want. If after messing with EQ for a week or so you are still unable to get the result you want, then you are doing something wrong, and its no one elses fault.

Mozart is just another artist, like Bass Hunter or Juno Reactor or Pink Floyd...

@fsp

without melody, there is no music. and without good melody, there is no good music. random sounds and a kick drum isn't music. no matter how commercial it sounds.

@diginut

I don't leave because I enjoy correcting/helping people. Just like you enjoy it when you think you are correcting/helping people. If people don't recognize that there is a problem, then they will never be able to fix it. Having utterly no musical ability, but being able to EQ, then still calling yourself a musician...is a problem.

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Originally posted by cronodevir I don't leave because I enjoy correcting/helping people. Just like you enjoy it when you think you are correcting/helping people.

The primary difference being that all of your corrections have been incorrect, and your helpful comments like "Mozart would laugh his ass off" are definitively not helpful.

Ive been more helpful than you have. The sum of your contribution is a thread with other peoples work. I'm trying to clear the misconceptions about music, technical work being the crux of the difficulty in production is a vast misconception. Its so bad that people don't even acknowledge that EDM as a whole contains barely a few scraps of even basic musical comp. People think that the musical composition has been maxed as it were, that there is nothing else that can be done musically. And so all this emphasis is placed on trivial matters.

I find this to be a grave mistake. And it only furthers the devolution of music. If people don't realize that the problem with EDM lies in the composition and not "how good that EQ sounds", then EDM will never be more than some blips and bloops with a kickdrum. And that is certainly not euphoric. This is what is wrong with stuff like ASOT these days....its vengeance cds, with no melody, with good mastering. Literally. And people look up to this junk. People even get offended when you call it junk lol. You have people who's scope is so tiny that ASOT, for them, is the epitome of musical comp, they only see a tiny fragment of what music is. ...and then these people downloaded FLStudio and Cubase. Rest is History.

So if you think musicality is being neglected so much, why not start some threads about composition rather than just whining about how you think everyone is getting it wrong?

From what I've seen in this forum, Diginut has given dozens of times more advice about both musical and technical issues than you ever have. If you think his only contribution is the sticky, then you just haven't been reading this forum all that carefully.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Ive been more helpful than you have. The sum of your contribution is a thread with other peoples work. I'm trying to clear the misconceptions about music, technical work being the crux of the difficulty in production is a vast misconception. Its so bad that people don't even acknowledge that EDM as a whole contains barely a few scraps of even basic musical comp. People think that the musical composition has been maxed as it were, that there is nothing else that can be done musically. And so all this emphasis is placed on trivial matters. I find this to be a grave mistake. And it only furthers the devolution of music. If people don't realize that the problem with EDM lies in the composition and not "how good that EQ sounds", then EDM will never be more than some blips and bloops with a kickdrum. And that is certainly not euphoric. This is what is wrong with stuff like ASOT these days....its vengeance cds, with no melody, with good mastering. Literally. And people look up to this junk. People even get offended when you call it junk lol. You have people who's scope is so tiny that ASOT, for them, is the epitome of musical comp, they only see a tiny fragment of what music is. ...and then these people downloaded FLStudio and Cubase. Rest is History.

This is all well and good, and having been a musician since I was 6 and taken all the requisite theory courses, I understand completely about the ignorance of the subject in the world of electronic music production. You, however, haven't given us any reason to believe that you know any more about the subject than the rest of the mouth-breathers you never fail to take cheap shots at, and in fact everything I've read and heard from you so far indicates that you're in no position to be criticizing others for their lack of education.

You aren't clearing up misconceptions, you're getting on your high horse, and you haven't earned the right to do that.

The bottom line is this. It takes a special mind to make a special track. Many of the tracks you just dissed on are crap. But with more effort and time put into them instead of rushing them off to the mastering house for the next 200 dollars, those tracks could be amazing for years and years.

People just don't have any clue about anything. Most everyone is lazy. Thus, why would they want to spend 200 hours making a classic instead of 24 hours making a hit trance track (which will stay a hit for only 2 months). A great deal of the people in this genre are in it for the money, not to get out a message, or to help people feel something. Wrong business to do that. This isn't a law firm, this isn't an oil cartel. This isn't wall street. People are far too good at settling for mediocrity. This is not really easy to prove but I have a fundamental belief that success is a learned trait, and can be applied to any field/avenue. If you are the best at one thing, you have the mental fortitude to be the best at anything you choose. It takes a certain brain type and learned ability to be the best. It takes a passion, and there is always a reason for why they are doing it.

Most producers in all different genres have no purpose to their work, or in the pursuit of their work. This is why mediocrity reigns supreme. The people who think outside of the box and challenge themselves consistently, in all endeavors, will always be more successful than the luckbox who threw some presets together with a catchy 4 bar melody.

Everyone has their reasons for what they do. It just happens 99% of those reasons are ill conceived and will accomplish nothing more then normalcy.

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Originally posted by cronodevir [b] And it only furthers the devolution of music. If people don't realize that the problem with EDM lies in the composition and not "how good that EQ sounds", then EDM will never be more than some blips and bloops with a kickdrum. And that is certainly not euphoric. This is what is wrong with stuff like ASOT these days....its vengeance cds, with no melody, with good mastering. Literally. And people look up to this junk. People even get offended when you call it junk lol. You have people who's scope is so tiny that ASOT, for them, is the epitome of musical comp, they only see a tiny fragment of what music is. ...and then these people downloaded FLStudio and Cubase. Rest is History.

I've only read about 3 posts of yours, which is why I was wondering why DJ RANN wanted to throw you in the back of a trunk, but you say some crazy shit man lol. There is no problem with EDM, get off that, it is simply a form of music, a very versatile one, a very diverse and expansive genre, with as much talent producing the music as any other genre, and this with a DIY echosystem.

People fail to realise that a big part of why you hear terrible EDM music is because there are countless labels with very poor taste (including ones that get stroked on the RA's of the world) that are putting music that should'nt be heard outside the walls they were created in. You don't hear the countless sea of shitty Pop, Hip Hop, and Rock being made in bedroom studios, because they really have no major channels of delivery to the masses, the mainstream takes up 90% of the space out there. Well actually you do hear countless pieces of shitty Pop, Hip Hop, Rock, just by turning on the radio, those genres are dead for creativity and quality. They are being saved in some ways by Indie Lables who have impregnated Major labels with ideas and talent, since Major Labels these days cant foster talent worth a cent.

So what is wrong with EDM, besides the fact you can access the not so great music out there? Whose fault is that? The Producer who sweats and makes amazing music that doesn't get heard and recognized enough? The people like you who are too lazy to find the good music out there? There is still endless amounts of great EDM being put out on a monthly basis, more so than any other genre out there, it really depends on where you are looking for music, and how hard you look. I remember in 1999 before TA came up on my radar I use to find obscure websites for any morsel of good electronic music I could find, I'd go through hundreds of pieces of music just to find 10. The only thing I was mad at was that there wasn't a place I could find more good pieces of music more efficiently. Since now in 2009 there are countless places to find good pieces of music efficiently, it is your responsibility to discover the music, while filtering out and ignoring the lower quality music.

So, only the biggest of idiots, diss the quality of electronic music, whatever genre it might be. Instead people should be seeking the good music out there, and finding ways to pass along that good music to others.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Music is not complex, even Mozart, and its only the idiot that elevates his music to such a complex status. Someone who has no musical talent or ability would think ti was vastly complex. When it is at best average. People only think highly of it because it happened 200 or so years ago. There are classical musicians today who shit all over Mozart, but people don't give them the time of day.

I agree with your sentiment that too many producers make productions instead of music but your opinion of Mozart is not one shared by any good composer living or dead. Do you even know his music ?

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Because making money off music is stupid, I would go out of my way to ensure others don't, if I could. That is why I don't try to join a label or some other nonsense. If you want money, go do something productive. Don't smear the music world with shit music because you want to make a hundred bucks. As far as my music goes..beats anything you could ever muster. No one is on an Ego trip, I'm just astounded at the patheticness of artists these days. People are struggling at stuff you shouldn't be struggling. If a fat kid is struggling to do an obstical course, you don't sympathize with the fat kid, you blame him for allowing himself to be so flawed as to not finish the course. People who struggle on elementary things like EQ, are not in the right mindset to even consider themselves an musician. The basics are, do you know what each knob on the EQ does? Boom, then you should be a master at EQing things the way you want. If after messing with EQ for a week or so you are still unable to get the result you want, then you are doing something wrong, and its no one elses fault.

Dude, I've been on this site for years, but just started a new account. I've been reading your posts recently and to be honest, you talk alot of shit. You say you aren't on some ego trip, but you act like the 'Einstein of EDM'. If you know so much about sound engineering then why not be of some help and get a job at mastering. If current tracks sound so bad to you, you can atleast make them sound somewhat better with your divine skills.

And don't give me that making money off music is stupid. It's smart. It allows you to concentrate more on what you do, and with the money you can buy better synths/effects or use that money to do something more useful if needed. So you're saying, people like Paul van dyk, Ferry Corsten, Tiesto...although commercial as they might sound, they are stupid? They are actually very smart, which is why they are successful now.

Don't act like you know everything. If you claim you don't have an ego, then atleast try to show that you're humble by admitting when you're wrong.

RichieV I know my opinion of Mozart is not shared. I also know that almost everyone I have met that thought highly of him, though highly of Tiesto or AVB when they heard those guys too. When someone critiques music, eventually there is a point where no artist becomes to high to be judged. Ive heard a lot of Mozart, and I find most of it to be erratic. You probably don't a agree, though I don't know. :P My comment before was not an insult [it didn't even sound like one...was it because I said 'ass'? Some people usually default to "he insulted someone" because that person used a swear word.] Mozart himself never said his stuff was overly complex. In fact most of it was simply the act of putting it out that was hard. He wasn't born knowing how to build an orchestra piece, but he did from a young age already have the music in his head. It was just there, he didn't have to wait until he was 23, learn how music works and try to pump out a song. So calling it complex or "above our heads" is laughable in the least. He isn't some high and mighty guy, we was just another musical composer, people like him so much because he is from 200 years ago, and they don't understand music and they hear his stuff, and think its the epitome of music..that's about it.

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