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Originally posted by Cpt.Cocaine This thread was delayed.

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Originally posted by iclone also: pitot tube.

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Originally posted by VDub FYI guys, it's called a pitot tube... I'm not sure that one tube freezing would be a problem since most airliners have several of them. One for each seat and a standby.. It'll be great to find out what actually happened to that flight...

yeah, the pitot tube was already mentioned. it's actually a pitot static system, which leads into the aircraft instrumentation. THERE IS NOT one tube (let alone, a standby) for each seat...that's ridiculous. you're not going to have 700+ pitot tubes sticking out of a wide-body. most commercial aircraft have only a few for the entire plane, including backups. nose of the aircraft below is to the left (envision pitot tube covers removed):

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I'm assuming a plane nose diving into the ocean is a result of the engines failing.

or electrical failure. or smoke/fire in the cockpit. or pressurization loss. or instrumentation failure. or computers overriding pilot (ohai, airbus). or a whole host of other reasons that don't include engine failure... imo, a lightning strike would be an unlikely cause...that's what static wicks are for, and they usually diffuse the strike without incident (unless they're installed inversely, as embraer did with american eagle's entire fleet of E-145's )

the story will probably be told better by the FDR than the CVR.

I can't find it now, but there was an amazing story of the some (I think BA) pilots who lost all 4 engines about 60 miles out from the airport.

They managed to glide it in and no one died - I remember at the time they were saying it was one of the greatest aviation feats in the history of commercial airlines.

One thing my Grandad used to tell me was that all crashes are never a single problem; it's always a series of malfunction and/or mechanical and/or human errors that cause them.

He used to tell me some fascinating shit (was chief engineer for BA (globally), designed the fuel systems for concord etc). Some of the stories about flying in prototypes while they crumbled to pieces and they had to get to ground before falling out of the sky were just unreal.

My faviourite gliding story is this one:

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British Airways Flight 9, sometimes referred to as the Speedbird 9 or Jakarta incident,[1] was a scheduled British Airways flight from London Heathrow to Auckland, with stops in Bombay, Madras, Kuala Lumpur, Perth, and Melbourne. On 24 June 1982, the route was flown by the City of Edinburgh, a 747-236B. The aircraft flew into a cloud of volcanic ash thrown up by the eruption of Mount Galunggung (approximately 180 kilometres (110 mi) south-east of Jakarta, Indonesia), resulting in the failure of all four engines. The reason for the failure was not immediately apparent to the crew or ground control. The aircraft was diverted to Jakarta in the hope that enough engines could be restarted to allow it to land there. The aircraft was able to glide far enough to exit the ash cloud, and all engines were restarted (although one failed again soon after), allowing the aircraft to land safely at Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta's airport. The crew members of the incident segment had boarded the aircraft in Kuala Lumpur, while many of the passengers had been aboard since the flight began in London.[2]

Best line ever:

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.....He then called out how high they should be at each DME step along the final approach to the runway, creating a virtual glide slope for them to follow. It was, in Moody's words, "a bit like negotiating one's way up a badger's arse."[1]

Gotta love pilots lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

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Originally posted by VDub FYI guys, it's called a pitot tube... I'm not sure that one tube freezing would be a problem since most airliners have several of them. One for each seat and a standby.. It'll be great to find out what actually happened to that flight...

It's thought that all of them failed when super-cooled water vapor condensed on them. There was a series of electronic transmissions of systems shutting down, including the auto-pilot, just prior to the plane's crash. The systems that shut down were related, in some measure, to those tubes.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I can't find it now, but there was an amazing story of the some (I think BA) pilots who lost all 4 engines about 60 miles out from the airport. They managed to glide it in and no one died - I remember at the time they were saying it was one of the greatest aviation feats in the history of commercial airlines.

annnnd that's why they get paid the big bucks 60 miles out -- and probably well below 10,000ft is difficult enough. i cannot imagine attempting to glide a plane with inop engines down from altitude (in the middle of the atlantic, no less), let alone with any additional problems!

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Originally posted by iclone annnnd that's why they get paid the big bucks 60 miles out -- and probably well below 10,000ft is difficult enough. i cannot imagine attempting to glide a plane with inop engines down from altitude (in the middle of the atlantic, no less), let alone with any additional problems!

Well actually the higher the better, assuming you still have system control.

The higher you are the more ground you can cover and the more airspeed you've got to perform turns etc.

I heard an interesting conspiracy theory and to some degree, I can see where it came from:

Sully's flight was not hit by birds, it's was simple bad maintenance and the bird story was quickly released as AA would simply not survive another problem, especially with the amount of money they were losing at the time and the general shape of things post 911.

The more I think about the more I believe it, and I don't really buy in to this kind of shit.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Well actually the higher the better, assuming you still have system control. The higher you are the more ground you can cover and the more airspeed you've got to perform turns etc.

it's more having to ditch the plane in the middle of the ocean i have a problem with.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Sully's flight was not hit by birds, it's was simple bad maintenance and the bird story was quickly released as AA would simply not survive another problem, especially with the amount of money they were losing at the time and the general shape of things post 911.

sully was USAirways, not AA...

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I can't find it now, but there was an amazing story of the some (I think BA) pilots who lost all 4 engines about 60 miles out from the airport.

Well there's BA9 that you reference amongst other similar incidents...

A family friend was a flight engineer on a 747-200 back in the 1980s/1990s. Landing into Mauritius they found themselves in a weather system (can't remember the exact name for it now) where the aircraft was sinking must greater than they expected. The flight engineer called for 100% power, then 110% power (this rarely being used, not even for takeoffs) and yet they were still descending. Based on their sink rate they were due to ditch in the ocean a few miles short of the runway, luckily they broke out of the weather system and began gaining altitude again. The friend said he'd been an FE for over 30yrs and it was the most scared he'd ever been.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Can a roughly 500,000lb plane really glide down safely with no power?

Glided 135 miles into landing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

Glided around 100 miles into landing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

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Originally posted by fbgdavidson Landing into Mauritius they found themselves in a weather system (can't remember the exact name for it now) where the aircraft was sinking must greater than they expected. The flight engineer called for 100% power, then 110% power (this rarely being used, not even for takeoffs) and yet they were still descending. Based on their sink rate they were due to ditch in the ocean a few miles short of the runway, luckily they broke out of the weather system and began gaining altitude again.

wind shear?

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I heard an interesting conspiracy theory and to some degree, I can see where it came from: Sully's flight was not hit by birds, it's was simple bad maintenance and the bird story was quickly released as AA would simply not survive another problem, especially with the amount of money they were losing at the time and the general shape of things post 911. The more I think about the more I believe it, and I don't really buy in to this kind of shit.

I have a friend who was on that flight (he has some awesome pictures when they were on the life rafts, too) and he said he heard a bunch of thuds before the plane stalled and went down. So, I believe the bird story.

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Originally posted by Banora I have a friend who was on that flight (he has some awesome pictures when they were on the life rafts, too) and he said he heard a bunch of thuds before the plane stalled and went down. So, I believe the bird story.

Right, like they didn't brainwash him and pay him off big bucks to lie.

Just thought I'd post this. Birdstrike on a Bae Hawk

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Originally posted by iclone yeah, the pitot tube was already mentioned. it's actually a pitot static system, which leads into the aircraft instrumentation. THERE IS NOT one tube (let alone, a standby) for each seat...that's ridiculous. you're not going to have 700+ pitot tubes sticking out of a wide-body. most commercial aircraft have only a few for the entire plane, including backups. nose of the aircraft below is to the left (envision pitot tube covers removed):

Are you kidding??

You thought I was talking about every seat on the aircraft passengers and all???

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Originally posted by EddieZilker It's thought that all of them failed when super-cooled water vapor condensed on them. There was a series of electronic transmissions of systems shutting down, including the auto-pilot, just prior to the plane's crash. The systems that shut down were related, in some measure, to those tubes.

The issue is that if anything like that happened, the pilots would have been able to radio an emergency...

Something happened that took everything out at once which tells us that it wasn't simply an instrument failure...

I don't understand why they don't just put parachutes on commercial airplanes for these situations.

"Ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking, we have just lost our second engine, the plane is about to stall and plow into the nearest mountain range in the next 120 or so seconds. Please proceed calmly and one by one your nearest emergency exit where a stewardess will provide you each with a parachute and properly instruct you on how to use it, while i remote detonate the shaped charges so that the emergency door will actually open and you can all jump to safety."

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Originally posted by Moongoose "Ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking, we have just lost our second engine, the plane is about to stall and plow into the nearest mountain range in the next 120 or so seconds. Please proceed calmly and one by one your nearest emergency exit where a stewardess will provide you each with a parachute and properly instruct you on how to use it, while i remote detonate the shaped charges so that the emergency door will actually open and you can all jump to safety."

that's the same thing i was thinking. should go great.

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Originally posted by VDub You thought I was talking about every seat on the aircraft passengers and all???

11 years in ops analysis at a major taught me better, but yeah...i don't know you, and from the statement below, you can see how i'd imagine you didn't have a grasp on what a pitot tube is...

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Originally posted by VDub I'm not sure that one tube freezing would be a problem since most airliners have several of them. One for each seat and a standby

Clearly this tragedy could have been avoided if planes had a giant parachute to prevent it from plummeting to the ground.

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Originally posted by woscar Clearly this tragedy could have been avoided if planes had a giant parachute to prevent it from plummeting to the ground.

They do have those on some light aircraft.

Or boats in the ocean suspending a giant trampoline to catch the plane.

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Originally posted by iclone 11 years in ops analysis at a major taught me better, but yeah...i don't know you, and from the statement below, you can see how i'd imagine you didn't have a grasp on what a pitot tube is...

Yes. Each seat in the cockpit. Sorry if I should've been more specific...

And yes, a spare...



I may not know what ops analysis at a major means but I do know aviation...

lol. THANK YOU

ops analysis at a major = operations analysis at a major airline. i dealt with flight/aircraft/maintenance performance analysis for 48,000-52,000 flights per month.

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Originally posted by Boomer187 Right, like they didn't brainwash him and pay him off big bucks to lie.

Hm, he never mentioned them serving Kool-Aid on the flight...

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