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Originally posted by Clovis Great speech but if you think about REALITY, (I know it's difficult for you) what diminishes the entrepreneurial spirit in this country is something far different. Just think about the greatest threat to entrepreneurs and small businesses in this country today. Think real hard.

I'm surprisingly (to you all) liberal about a few issues that may shock you.

Anyway the greatest thread to entrepreneurs and small businesses? Well since I actually have experience running 2 of them for 6-7 years now, I can tell you that constant increasing taxes are the most difficult obsticle to overcome. It makes the service more expensive to the consumer, and it makes it incresingly more difficult to hire people. What you may not understand is that to pay someone a $60,000 salary, it may actually cost me, the employer, about $75,000 per year with no guarantee for a couple of years that based on that person's work, I'll see a return on that investment. Haha... don't talk to me about living in reality, youngster. You're an idealistic DJ living at home in a state that's about to go bankrupt from years of liberal entitlement policies..... and I run 2 businesses and am responsible for peoples' livlihoods. When you start signing the front of checks, I'll listen to your crap about what it's like to live in the real world.

By the way, Clovis... what diminishes the entrepreneurial spirit from a theoretical standpoint is more and more people being convinced by the State that they are entitled to this, and to that... being made to believe the deck is stacked against them. Rather than seeing other peoples' success as motivation, they start to say, "How the hell did that person get all that? It isn't fair," and become succeptible to liberal policies of a redistributive nature. EMpty promises by the State for decades that if elected, you can rely on them... you can rely on government and they'll take care of it; they'll fix your problems. That's how the spirit is diminished; when the individual shifts personal responsibility and motivation over to the State for them to "handle". It's just creating an ever expanding role of people dependant on government.

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Originally posted by The17sss Anyway the greatest thread to entrepreneurs and small businesses? Well since I actually have experience running 2 of them for 6-7 years now, I can tell you that constant increasing taxes are the most difficult obsticle to overcome.

when have taxes increased? i love the claim, but there is no truth to it!

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 when have taxes increased? i love the claim, but there is no truth to it!

You know, when Bush raised them in... oh wait, this doesn't further my rant against liberals? Never mind!

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Originally posted by The17sss I think the self reliance of conservatism is rooted in the idea of individual liberty... and the belief that freedom includes a person's freedom to make good and bad choices for themselves, not have Big Brother holding their hand and deciding what's best for them. I have plenty of faith in people- when they are left alone by government and allowed to succeed or fail on their own merit. You gotta agree that a growing population of this country are not properly educated and informed (look at the return on our public school investment)... and when people are not adequately informed/educated then yes, it constrains the mind from understanding that they are the masters of their own destiny, not the State. It gets easier and easier to take entitlements and government handouts than work hard for success. And with the ever expanding nanny state perpetuated by liberal policies and a supportive agenda driven media, the American entrepreneurial spirit is diminshed little by little each day.

to an extent, i agree with most of this. I disagree, however, that the entrepreneurial spirit is being diminished at all. If you look at the history of this country there has always been a percentage of the population seeking entitlements (social security and unemployment were enacted after the great depression); this is nothing new. People who really have the entrepreneurial spirit aren't dissuaded by the chance to get minimal government benefits if they don't break out on their own. the people that are attracted to receiving entitlements likely weren't going to take the big risk to make that kind of profit.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 when have taxes increased? i love the claim, but there is no truth to it!

I'm not talking about just federal corporate taxes, which are about to become the highest in the world. State and local taxes vary, "combined reporting" which is when govt. collects taxes from a business on income derived in other states (we have branch offices in 3 states), the soon-to-be health benefit tax which will really hurt, the Bush tax cuts expiring soon has to be taken into consideration as a tax increase from a business perspective as well. I can't just react, I have to prepare for the stuff that is coming such as payroll tax increases, capital gains tax increases, income tax increases, etc.

When something is taxed, you depress the activity. When incentive to thrive (which I guess is a whopping $250K per year... hardly enough to employ 1 person and deal with overhead) is depressed, the entrepreneurial spirit dies a little more each day. Jerz you're a tax lawyer. You know it's a lot more complicated than to discuss 1 percentage number and apply it across the board.

Lebez... tell me about your experience running a business and being responsible for employees in a horrible economy. How do you navigate the rough waters? Please provide me with concrete advice on how to deal with business taxes that are apparantly not a big deal. Oh... I forgot... you just do a lot of reading and writing so you're an expert on real life business operations too.

Edit: Jerz- you're right to an extent on your last post... there are those who will go down with the ship and never submit to the pressures that weigh against the entrepreneurial spirit. I'm one of them, and I know a lot of others who are also- the key is to have the vision to adapt to changing times rather than wait for others to take care of things for you. But there's a tipping point for a lot of people and from what I gather, discouragement to press on is at an all time high. Welfare/food stamp/entitlement program roles are higher than they have ever been.

If the lefties really cared about the "little guy", they'd be pushing with all their might for a 0.00% corporate tax rate and lower income taxes all around. But despite the jobs and wage growth this would bring, it conflicts with their "government can and must solve everything" religion..so they just can't do it.

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Originally posted by Shakka I'm more concerned that PETA is going to go after Obama given the brutal nature with which he killed that innocent fly in his interview with John Harwood today. I mean did you see the ferocity and velocity with which Obama ruthlessly ended that poor insect's life? Harsh man...harsh.

BWAHAHAHAH!!

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PETA wishes Obama hadn't swatted that fly WASHINGTON � The group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals wants the flyswatter in chief to try taking a more humane attitude the next time he's bedeviled by a fly in the White House. PETA is sending President Barack Obama a Katcha Bug Humane Bug Catcher, a device that allows users to trap a house fly and then release it outside. "We support compassion even for the most curious, smallest and least sympathetic animals," PETA spokesman Bruce Friedrich said Wednesday. "We believe that people, where they can be compassionate, should be, for all animals." During an interview for CNBC at the White House on Tuesday, a fly intruded on Obama's conversation with correspondent John Harwood. "Get out of here," the president told the pesky insect. When it didn't, he waited for the fly to settle, put his hand up and then smacked it dead. "Now, where were we?" Obama asked Harwood. Then he added: "That was pretty impressive, wasn't it? I got the sucker." Friedrich said that PETA was pleased with Obama's voting record in the Senate on behalf of animal rights and noted that he has been outspoken against animal abuses. Still, "swatting a fly on TV indicates he's not perfect," Friedrich said, "and we're happy to say that we wish he hadn't." Deputy press secretary Josh Earnest said the White House has no comment on the matter.

Fuck you PETA.

lol, Obama is da man..

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Originally posted by Capitalizt If the lefties really cared about the "little guy", they'd be pushing with all their might for a 0.00% corporate tax rate and lower income taxes all around. But despite the jobs and wage growth this would bring,

i think its quaint people think like this.

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Originally posted by The17sss I'm not talking about just federal corporate taxes, which are about to become the highest in the world.

actually, proposals are to reduce the corporate tax rate if the other international anti-deferral provisions are enacted. If the corporate rates aren't lowered it will have a truly detrimental effect for US multinationals. At that point, i will regret voting for obama and democrats.

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Originally posted by The17sss State and local taxes vary, "combined reporting" which is when govt. collects taxes from a business on income derived in other states (we have branch offices in 3 states),

that's not accurate. combined reporting is a method of determining apportionable income for related corporations (i.e., the income of each related corporation is combined for purposes of determining the taxable income in a specific state). A state never has the ability to tax income that has no connection with the state. the theory behind combined reporting is to prevent corporations from reducing their apportionable income by creating a corporation in each state.

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Originally posted by The17sss the soon-to-be health benefit tax which will really hurt,

specutalive at best

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Originally posted by The17sss the Bush tax cuts expiring soon has to be taken into consideration as a tax increase from a business perspective as well.

the bush tax cuts were directed at individuals, not corporations. I assume you operate as a partnership for tax purposes.

people should actually look at the bush tax cuts as an unwarranted gift.

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Originally posted by The17sss I can't just react, I have to prepare for the stuff that is coming such as payroll tax increases, capital gains tax increases, income tax increases, etc.

payroll tax increase is specutalive.

A capital gains tax increase will not affect corporations.

Income tax increase won't affect corporations.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss When something is taxed, you depress the activity. When incentive to thrive (which I guess is a whopping $250K per year... hardly enough to employ 1 person and deal with overhead) is depressed, the entrepreneurial spirit dies a little more each day. Jerz you're a tax lawyer. You know it's a lot more complicated than to discuss 1 percentage number and apply it across the board.

tax increases are relative. people with an entreprenuerial spirit seek to be better off than their peers. since tax increases don't cause the rich to become poorer than the poor, i don't believe it has as great an effect as you claim.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 people should actually look at the bush tax cuts as an unwarranted gift.

Exactly! They were never designed (by Republicans, no less) to be permanent in the first place! Calling their sunset a "tax increase" is absolutely absurd, and entirely disingenuous.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 actually, proposals are to reduce the corporate tax rate if the other international anti-deferral provisions are enacted. If the corporate rates aren't lowered it will have a truly detrimental effect for US multinationals. At that point, i will regret voting for obama and democrats.

Last I heard (I don't feel like digging it up, unless you want me to but you should know this anyway), but Obama was pushing to close those tax loopholes for overseas US companies' profits. Don't most of those companies greatly affect the employment/prosperity of the countries they are in as well? Doing so would make us less competitive abroad, right? A new Smoot-Hawley for this era. This dude Dan Mitchell explains it's destructiveness pretty well:

quote:

A state never has the ability to tax income that has no connection with the state. the theory behind combined reporting is to prevent corporations from reducing their apportionable income by creating a corporation in each state.

but... the way our business operates, the income produced does have connection to the states in which the service is provided.

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specutalive at best payroll tax increase is specutalive. A capital gains tax increase will not affect corporations. Income tax increase won't affect corporations.

I'd say it's more then specutalive. But like I said, I can't just be reactive... I have to prepare for what the floating trial balloons may be impending signs of. Capital gains taxes will certainly affect me as a business owner because we actively look for acquisitions and things to invest in to grow our portfolio. Regarding the income tax increase... I think a raise in that would make quality employees more likely to start browsing around for something that pays a little more, when they may not have before; there's no loyalty when it comes to money, and right now even making $50 more per week might be enough to make me lose an employee... and I'd have to start from scratch making a new investment in a new employee that I'm not sure will end up as a quality hire.

quote:

tax increases are relative. people with an entreprenuerial spirit seek to be better off than their peers. since tax increases don't cause the rich to become poorer than the poor, i don't believe it has as great an effect as you claim.

but on the other hand, as businesses become more profitbale, they are more likely to invest, to hire people and grow, and to take risks.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Last I heard (I don't feel like digging it up, unless you want me to but you should know this anyway), but Obama was pushing to close those tax loopholes for overseas US companies' profits. Don't most of those companies greatly affect the employment/prosperity of the countries they are in as well? Doing so would make us less competitive abroad, right? A new Smoot-Hawley for this era. This dude Dan Mitchell explains it's destructiveness pretty well:

i don't listen to cato guys. There's clearly a slant. I like the non-partisan policy views i received from the profs at NYU, most of whom practiced at some of the best law firms in the nation.


anyway, rangel, the head of the finance committee (or the JCT - i forget which one) coupled his foreign tax credit clampdowns (i.e., anti-deferral provisions) with corporate tax decreases, to 25% (a much more competetive rate - i believe we should go to 20% corporate rate). I also think the federal government should prohibit states from being able to tax corporations (something that could NEVER happen because of the state's rights brigade).

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Originally posted by The17sss but... the way our business operates, the income produced does have connection to the states in which the service is provided.

there is a unitary business concept (all business activities related to the business activities within the state are included in the apportionable tax base - and in combined reporting states those activities of related corporations are also included as long as the business activities are part of the unitary business) and an allocation methodology that attempts to tax only income related to activities in the state. I could write pages on this topic, but that would cost you a few hundred dollars and hour. So, just trust me that the constitution prohibits states from taxing income that is not related to the activities in the state (of course there is some guessing involved, so to you it may appear that income is being taxed in a state when it is not connected, but we need to guess considering all the different factual scenarios).

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Originally posted by The17sss I'd say it's more then specutalive. But like I said, I can't just be reactive... I have to prepare for what the floating trial balloons may be impending signs of. Capital gains taxes will certainly affect me as a business owner because we actively look for acquisitions and things to invest in to grow our portfolio. Regarding the income tax increase... I think a raise in that would make quality employees more likely to start browsing around for something that pays a little more, when they may not have before; there's no loyalty when it comes to money, and right now even making $50 more per week might be enough to make me lose an employee... and I'd have to start from scratch making a new investment in a new employee that I'm not sure will end up as a quality hire.

i hear ya.

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Originally posted by The17sss but on the other hand, as businesses become more profitbale, they are more likely to invest, to hire people and grow, and to take risks.

there is certainly truth to that, but the intersts of the whole (society) have to be weighed against the interests of the individual. It's a delicate balancing act.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I could write pages on this topic, but that would cost you a few hundred dollars and hour.

I like that you take the emotion out of things and usually react to the facts and the situational contexts. If you lived down here I'd definitely be interested in paying for your services.

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Originally posted by The17sss I like that you take the emotion out of things and usually react to the facts and the situational contexts. If you lived down here I'd definitely be interested in paying for your services.

thanks man - that's a great compliment. The way the economy is going it's looking like I may have to break out on my own (i.e., lay-offs are looking imminent).

If your company has some serious state and local issues (e.g., state audits, litigation, or just plain old state tax planning) I can refer you to a great state and local practice based mainly out of DC, but with a group in NYC and an office in Atlanta. I practice mainly international and federal corporate taxation, and I do a whole array of calculations supporting tax positions. If you need that kind of work, holla! I'm sure my firm has an office somewhere near you (Greensville, Raleigh, Columbia, Atlanta, whereever).

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 thanks man - that's a great compliment. The way the economy is going it's looking like I may have to break out on my own (i.e., lay-offs are looking imminent). If your company has some serious state and local issues (e.g., state audits, litigation, or just plain old state tax planning) I can refer you to a great state and local practice based mainly out of DC, but with a group in NYC and an office in Atlanta. I practice mainly international and federal corporate taxation, and I do a whole array of calculations supporting tax positions. If you need that kind of work, holla! I'm sure my firm has an office somewhere near you (Greensville, Raleigh, Columbia, Atlanta, whereever).

hmmm.. well our HQ is in South Carolina so if you're licensed in that state... boo ya! Something to think about. Haha... how ironic. We have a preliminary deal with a Chinese company in the works who wants to take our service and product to China/India/Indonesia. The stuff we do in Malaysia is through lawyers there because it's a Malaysian based company. But we're going to need legal representation before mid-August for this new thing we're trying to work out. I'll have to PM you later if you may be interested.

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Originally posted by The17sss I'm surprisingly (to you all) liberal about a few issues that may shock you. Anyway the greatest thread to entrepreneurs and small businesses? Well since I actually have experience running 2 of them for 6-7 years now, I can tell you that constant increasing taxes are the most difficult obsticle to overcome. It makes the service more expensive to the consumer, and it makes it incresingly more difficult to hire people. What you may not understand is that to pay someone a $60,000 salary, it may actually cost me, the employer, about $75,000 per year with no guarantee for a couple of years that based on that person's work, I'll see a return on that investment. Haha... don't talk to me about living in reality, youngster. You're an idealistic DJ living at home in a state that's about to go bankrupt from years of liberal entitlement policies..... and I run 2 businesses and am responsible for peoples' livlihoods. When you start signing the front of checks, I'll listen to your crap about what it's like to live in the real world.

So in your reality, tax increases are your number one concern when operating your business?

Market share, competition, healthcare costs (if any), operating expenses, financing, advertising, these are all secondary concerns to taxes?

Are you serious?

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Originally posted by The17sss By the way, Clovis... what diminishes the entrepreneurial spirit from a theoretical standpoint is more and more people being convinced by the State that they are entitled to this, and to that... being made to believe the deck is stacked against them. Rather than seeing other peoples' success as motivation, they start to say, "How the hell did that person get all that? It isn't fair," and become succeptible to liberal policies of a redistributive nature. EMpty promises by the State for decades that if elected, you can rely on them... you can rely on government and they'll take care of it; they'll fix your problems. That's how the spirit is diminished; when the individual shifts personal responsibility and motivation over to the State for them to "handle". It's just creating an ever expanding role of people dependant on government.

Yeah, we've heard this story over and over and over from you but like I said, in REALITY it just isn't the case.

CEO's are not quitting their jobs to get on welfare.

People still want to make money in this country, creating a better safety net for people on the bottom is not going to reduce anyone's desire to try and make more money.

Think about the logic of what you are saying. It really isn't that difficult if you just think everything through.

Lowering taxes on the middle class isn't going to make all of them decide they don't need a raise, or don't need to run the family business anymore. We're talking about small amounts of help here and there not paying everyone full time salaries off the backs of the uber rich.

I don't understand how you can continuously spout this position since it just doesn't make any fucking sense in the real world.

If you ask me the biggest threat to entrepreneurial spirit in this country is mega corporations and conglomerates like Wall-mart, starbucks, for whom enormous profit is the only bottom line, and who have the resources available to squash any small competition in their way.

Why would anyone in their right mind open up a small hardware store with wall-mart around the block using chinese labor and imports to sell everything for 20% less?

Why open your own coffee shop in this economy with Starbucks offering drive-thru service and McDonalds about to open their own coffee wing?

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis If you ask me the biggest threat to entrepreneurial spirit in this country is mega corporations and conglomerates like Wall-mart, starbucks, for whom enormous profit is the only bottom line, and who have the resources available to squash any small competition in their way. Why would anyone in their right mind open up a small hardware store with wall-mart around the block using chinese labor and imports to sell everything for 20% less? Why open your own coffee shop in this economy with Starbucks offering drive-thru service and McDonalds about to open their own coffee wing?

I agree that regulations against a monopoly must be in place, but I admire private companies like Walmart who started from nothing, didn't take any bailout money, and now are looking to hire 22,000 new employees during this recession. That "corporate monstor" theory is so played out. I guarantee Joe's hardware store on the same street as Walmart has a lot less overhead and can figure out how to stay in business. Or, they can evolve like most businesses and maybe get Walmart to sell their products. Mcdonalds, Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks... it's great to see innovation and competition. Running a business isn't a "right"... you gotta evolve and compete; it's like anything else. Businesses exist to make a profit first, not to supply people with jobs. Microsoft is another example... do you have any idea how many jobs and how much their existance contributes to the economy that so many people benefit from? Those evil rich people pay for the vast majority of the social services that poor people benefit from. It's easy to say "I don't mind paying a little extra in taxes to help people less fortunate," because it doesn't really apply to you personally... you're really saying, "I don't mind those who make a shit ton of money paying a little more to help others." It's always a little more and a little more... how much is enough? Almost 50% of the people aren't even paying income taxes man. The "war on poverty" being fixed with democrat ideas hasn't worked a bit with untold amounts of wealth transfer out of the private sector over the decates. Fair doesn't exist- there's always going to be people born with the last name "Trump" or "Hilton", and there's always going to be people born to crack addicted parents. Time to think less about the word "fair" and more about "individual responsibility for one's life".

From your other posts- yeah CEO's aren't standing in unemployment lines, and are still trying to make money... it's what they know how to do best. But because of the cost of doing business being so high, it makes hiring people very difficult... or investing in other ventures that will lead to more job growth. It's clear to see that when corporate taxes are lowered, employment rises and more investment happens, which of course leads to more tax revenue for the government. It's a fact. When the uber rich hold on to their money extra tight, the less fortunate suffer more because it slows down the economy. Makes sense to me.

Finally, to me personally, yes taxes and tax increases are the most important factor.... because once I know how much the cost of doing business will be, I can figure out where to spend the rest of it in terms of salaries, marketing, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis If you ask me the biggest threat to entrepreneurial spirit in this country is mega corporations and conglomerates like Wall-mart, starbucks, for whom enormous profit is the only bottom line, and who have the resources available to squash any small competition in their way. Why would anyone in their right mind open up a small hardware store with wall-mart around the block using chinese labor and imports to sell everything for 20% less? Why open your own coffee shop in this economy with Starbucks offering drive-thru service and McDonalds about to open their own coffee wing?

I'm the biggest walmart detractor there is, but you have to remember that starbucks, mcdonalds, and walmart all started as small businesses. Furthermore, retail shops aren't the only way to be break out. If anything, mega chains force people to be more creative and innovative such that they can compete (I.e., finding a niche). Let's not forget, also, that some. Mega chains offer the opportunity for people without inique ideas to franchise. These are people who are also not big risk takers, so they are being entreprenuerial as a result of megachains (e.g., mcdonalds, wendys, burger kings, etc).

I don't think rich people are evil, nor do I think all mega-corporations are evil (except Wall-Mart).

I just think that you're crying about minute tax increases that would benefit society as a whole.

I pay taxes, I don't mind paying more. If I was making millions I wouldn't mind either.

I don't think we should be giving anyone a free ride, but I do think we can make it easier for people to move up the ladder. The evidence in support of this is overwhelming.

Wages have stagnated accross the board save for those in the absolute top income brackets. It doesn't have to be like this. We don't need socialism or communism either. I'm pretty sure we can find a better balance than the ridiculous inequality we currently have.

I appreciate you taking the time to make points but I just don't agree with any of them. If you look at real life situations little of what you said actually applies.

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Originally posted by Clovis I just think that you're crying about minute tax increases that would benefit society as a whole. I pay taxes, I don't mind paying more. If I was making millions I wouldn't mind either. I don't think we should be giving anyone a free ride, but I do think we can make it easier for people to move up the ladder. The evidence in support of this is overwhelming. Wages have stagnated accross the board save for those in the absolute top income brackets. It doesn't have to be like this. We don't need socialism or communism either. I'm pretty sure we can find a better balance than the ridiculous inequality we currently have. I appreciate you taking the time to make points but I just don't agree with any of them. If you look at real life situations little of what you said actually applies.

Well, shit man... I thought I'd make a dent but I guess not. I just don't know how much easier we can make it for people. There are government programs for almost anything you want to do, and extra incentives if you're black/minority/female or whatever. My wife's mother was talking about how people here have no concept of "poor" or "less fortunate" and I tend to agree after listening to how growing up in Russia, they were so poor they had to boil leather belts for food in the winter. People who are considered "poor" here have cell phones and color tv's in their subsidized apartments that they might pay $150 a month to live in. Americans don't realize how good they actually have it- opportunity in this country is so fucking tangible, it's insane.

When I think of stagnant wages, I think of Europe... it's a relatively new phenominon at the moment. Our economy got brought back from the brink after 9/11, and rather quick- we had a 4 to 5% unemployment rate for most of the Bush term. Take in mind things didn't start getting dicey until 2007ish... and I'm not putting all the blame on Dems at all, but they did take over the house/senate/congress in 2006, and a cent of money can't get spent without the approval of the house/senate/congress.

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