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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard AJ drives a Miata.... wait....

Bahaha, see?

As long as there is money to be made from oil, viable alternatives will be kept under wraps.

Re: Hybrids

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel While I am not a fan of them in general, does anyone here think they are going about it in the totally wrong way? I believe the manner in which they are doing it to be quite inefficient. With all locomotives that are diesel-electric hybrids, the diesel motor does nothing with the actual work to move the train. That is all done via the electric motors. The diesel engine is strictly for electricity generation. Now, I don't know how efficient it actually would be on such a small scale. Anyone else see things that I may not be in my quickly thrown together thoughts?

You are wrong. Scale of engines is not the issue here. It's all about increasing the engine efficiency by always running it at its "sweet spot". Internal Combustion Engines give a maximum efficiency of 40%. And this is only at a certain point on the Torque-Speed curve (sweet spot). The hybrid architecture ensure that the vehicle runs at this point always, thereby increasing average efficiency to around 40% which otherwise is generally around 30% or less. The other interesting feature of hybrids is that they recover energy when the vehicle brakes. This is called brake energy regeneration.

Now lets go a bit deeper into the architectures of the hybrids. Very broadly there are two types, the Series Hybrid and the Parallel Hybrids.

A parallel hybrid is a slightly less complex system. The engine is connected to the wheels of the vehicle through a conventional transmission. A parallel battery / motor system stores energy when the vehicle brakes. There is an arrangement wherein this battery driven motor can assist the engine to rotate the drive shaft thereby reducing load on then engine = fuel savings. This type of architecture gives approximately 30% improvement in fuel efficiency in trucks.

A Series Hybrid on the other hand is a slightly more complicated architecture, but gives much higher fuel efficiency (over 70% for trucks). The engine is decoupled from the wheel. It only drives a motor that charges a battery. The battery pack drives wheel motors which move the vehicle. There is no conventional transmission. So there's no direct coupling between engine and wheels. The controller ensures that the engine always runs at its sweet spot and shuts off when not needed (when battery is charged). Brake energy regeneration adds to the improvement in fuel efficiency.

Batteries have an inherent disadvantage. They typically have low power density. Meaning you cannot get large power output due to the limitations on the battery discharge rates. Hydraulic systems can provide high power density. So people are already developing hydraulic hybrids for trucks (Class 8, Class 6). At the moment, this technology can give fuel improvement only in large and heavy vehicles. And those too, which make frequent starts and stops (eg. Garbage pickups, Courier delivery vans etc). But they are also working on putting this technology into small cars. Do a search on "hydraulic hybrid" for more information.

quote:

Originally posted by DuBam Hybrid? Like hash & marijuana rolled together? I like

perkele, i think i love you.

Re: Re: Hybrids

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma

Ahh shit I wasn't aware that the Karma was using what I was referring to! SICK!!!!

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Originally posted by david.michael Clean diesel ftw. Planning on getting an 09 Jetta TDI here in about 2 months.

+1 on diesel. I am hoping for a diesel (if it happens, a VW GTD) to be my next car.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M You are wrong. Scale of engines is not the issue here. It's all about increasing the engine efficiency by always running it at its "sweet spot". Internal Combustion Engines give a maximum efficiency of 40%. And this is only at a certain point on the Torque-Speed curve (sweet spot). The hybrid architecture ensure that the vehicle runs at this point always, thereby increasing average efficiency to around 40% which otherwise is generally around 30% or less. The other interesting feature of hybrids is that they recover energy when the vehicle brakes. This is called brake energy regeneration. Now lets go a bit deeper into the architectures of the hybrids. Very broadly there are two types, the Series Hybrid and the Parallel Hybrids. A parallel hybrid is a slightly less complex system. The engine is connected to the wheels of the vehicle through a conventional transmission. A parallel battery / motor system stores energy when the vehicle brakes. There is an arrangement wherein this battery driven motor can assist the engine to rotate the drive shaft thereby reducing load on then engine = fuel savings. This type of architecture gives approximately 30% improvement in fuel efficiency in trucks. A Series Hybrid on the other hand is a slightly more complicated architecture, but gives much higher fuel efficiency (over 70% for trucks). The engine is decoupled from the wheel. It only drives a motor that charges a battery. The battery pack drives wheel motors which move the vehicle. There is no conventional transmission. So there's no direct coupling between engine and wheels. The controller ensures that the engine always runs at its sweet spot and shuts off when not needed (when battery is charged). Brake energy regeneration adds to the improvement in fuel efficiency. Batteries have an inherent disadvantage. They typically have low power density. Meaning you cannot get large power output due to the limitations on the battery discharge rates. Hydraulic systems can provide high power density. So people are already developing hydraulic hybrids for trucks (Class 8, Class 6). At the moment, this technology can give fuel improvement only in large and heavy vehicles. And those too, which make frequent starts and stops (eg. Garbage pickups, Courier delivery vans etc). But they are also working on putting this technology into small cars. Do a search on "hydraulic hybrid" for more information.

I was not aware of the proper term, but the hybrids I was hating on were the parallel hybrids, and the ones I was referring to that locomotives use is the series hybrids. I was saying that the hybrid in the prius, the parallel, is horrible as compared to the series hybrids.

Fuel Cell/Hydrogen seems the most promising down the road. It will take some years, but it runs completely clean and its source, for all intents and purposes is endless.


With technology like that they can still produce fantastic gas/diesel sports cars for the rest of us!

quote:

Originally posted by miamitranceman Fuel Cell/Hydrogen seems the most promising down the road. It will take some years, but it runs completely clean and its source, for all intents and purposes is endless. With technology like that they can still produce fantastic gas/diesel sports cars for the rest of us!

Hydrogen uses a lot of energy in the extraction though.

All you diesel fans, just an FYI that Audi is bringing over their A3 TDI by years end over to this side of the Atlantic.

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Originally posted by d-miurge It's out already. There are some "air-taxis" in Mexico City.

Great, new innovative ways of getting the swine flu.

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Originally posted by noikeee Great, new innovative ways of getting the swine flu.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH All you diesel fans, just an FYI that Audi is bringing over their A3 TDI by years end over to this side of the Atlantic.

Yep, very aware. Also, the Mini D, GTI D, and a few others are coming over.

doesn't matter whether you like them or not, 'cuz you won't be allowed to make anything else, soon enough.

Re: Re: Re: Hybrids

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel I was not aware of the proper term, but the hybrids I was hating on were the parallel hybrids, and the ones I was referring to that locomotives use is the series hybrids. I was saying that the hybrid in the prius, the parallel, is horrible as compared to the series hybrids.

And why do you say that ? I just checked, the Prius has a power-split drive. Sort of a combination of series and parallel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid...8full.29_hybrid

quote:

Originally posted by inconspicuous doesn't matter whether you like them or not, 'cuz you won't be allowed to make anything else, soon enough.

Well, considering electric motors have more torque, I would be fine with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M And why do you say that ? I just checked, the Prius has a power-split drive. Sort of a combination of series and parallel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid...8full.29_hybrid

It is still a parallel hybrid. It just has an adaptation that allows the decoupling of the electric or mechanical motor. Why even bother? There is a reason why full on series hybrids have the highest return. The mechanical aspect can be set to run at its maximum efficiency (for metal bearings that is usually close to the point of failure) and only necessary to produce electricity. And they could then make everything electric. No more oil based steering pumps, etc.

Hybrids are a crock.
A little car like a Toyota Corolla, 1.8 Ascent Auto, horrid looking, boring and frightfully reliable as it is gets 7.5L/100km* and will cost $23-24,000.
A hybrid car just the same size, a Toyota Prius will cost $39,000 and gets about 4.5L/100km*, its equally ugly, boring and much slower even compared to the Corolla.
(* at highway speeds)

For the sake of numbers, we'll put about $2000 of petrol a year in the 'Grey Slug' Corolla, a Prius would be using about 55% of that and cost $1100.

Just in fuel and cost of the car-
In 5 years I would have spent $33,000 on the Slug
In 5 years I would have spent $44,500 on the Prius

In 10 years time, I would have spent $43,000 on the Slug
In 10 years time, I would have spent $48,500 on the Prius

In 15 years time, I would have spent $53,000 on the Slug
In 15 years time, I would have spent $54,000 on the Prius

Year 16, we actually are going to see a difference in them! Woohoo!

This isn't factoring in the higher interest rate of the loan taken out to buy the Prius, (I could probably categorically state the Corolla will still be running because anything that can survive HRH's demented driving in Sydney traffic will probably outlive a nuclear war) and it is also not factoring in the higher servicing costs for the 'exotic' mechanical systems in the Prius compared to the Slug which seems to run on petrol, oil and happy thoughts.
It is also not factoring in the price of petrol over the next 15 years because I'm not willing to forecast the costs with too many variables to take into account, but CPI for fuel usually runs at about 4-5% a year, assuming the yanks don't start shooting up the arabs for again for oil.

OR
I could just continue along buying 300+hp toys and not give a damn just like I do now, even my 'antiquated' one now gets 9.5L/100km at highway speeds. Course the hippies will have you believe that it runs on the blood of Panda's...

tl:dr
Hybrids are for retards until they lower the price

word up

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Hybrids are a crock. A little car like a Toyota Corolla, 1.8 Ascent Auto, horrid looking, boring and frightfully reliable as it is gets 7.5L/100km* and will cost $23-24,000. A hybrid car just the same size, a Toyota Prius will cost $39,000 and gets about 4.5L/100km*, its equally ugly, boring and much slower even compared to the Corolla. (* at highway speeds) For the sake of numbers, we'll put about $2000 of petrol a year in the 'Grey Slug' Corolla, a Prius would be using about 55% of that and cost $1100. Just in fuel and cost of the car- In 5 years I would have spent $33,000 on the Slug In 5 years I would have spent $44,500 on the Prius In 10 years time, I would have spent $43,000 on the Slug In 10 years time, I would have spent $48,500 on the Prius In 15 years time, I would have spent $53,000 on the Slug In 15 years time, I would have spent $54,000 on the Prius Year 16, we actually are going to see a difference in them! Woohoo! This isn't factoring in the higher interest rate of the loan taken out to buy the Prius, (I could probably categorically state the Corolla will still be running because anything that can survive HRH's demented driving in Sydney traffic will probably outlive a nuclear war) and it is also not factoring in the higher servicing costs for the 'exotic' mechanical systems in the Prius compared to the Slug which seems to run on petrol, oil and happy thoughts. It is also not factoring in the price of petrol over the next 15 years because I'm not willing to forecast the costs with too many variables to take into account, but CPI for fuel usually runs at about 4-5% a year, assuming the yanks don't start shooting up the arabs for again for oil. OR I could just continue along buying 300+hp toys and not give a damn just like I do now, even my 'antiquated' one now gets 9.5L/100km at highway speeds. Course the hippies will have you believe that it runs on the blood of Panda's... tl:dr Hybrids are for retards until they lower the price

Or people could just buy diesel's. Oh well. I guess everyone has to buy into the latest trends. BS.

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 If someone really wanted to get the most MPG out of a car, they would get a diesel and not a hybrid.

This is short-sighted. It doesn't take in other factors like emissions, production expense et cetera.

Most diesels are actually more expensive to run than petrol cars, actually.

quote:

Originally posted by miamitranceman Fuel Cell/Hydrogen seems the most promising down the road. It will take some years, but it runs completely clean and its source, for all intents and purposes is endless.

I don't think hydrogen is particularly viable. It can't be transported by a hydrogen-powered truck because the vehicle uses up the same amount of fuel as it is delivering. Also, hydrogen is highly explosive and any accidents would be severe.

So, that leaves you with two options:

a) Produce hydrogen on-site at petrol stations.

b) Pump it through lines the way existing natural gas is delivered.

Neither option is great.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Doesn't the engine switch to gas power once you go over 60km/h? Which would mean it's really only beneficial for city driving, right?

Not really. According to my car, I average 30km/h despite going over 100km/h quite often. City driving is slow when you average it out and most fuel is burned during acceleration.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel It is still a parallel hybrid. It just has an adaptation that allows the decoupling of the electric or mechanical motor. Why even bother?

Why bother? Because that's a simpler technology to work with. A series hybrid needs a completely new control system. For parallel hybrids, you need some adaptation because you are pretty much using the same transmission. But series is a completely different beast. When you talk about a production spec. system, you gotta be very sure you understand the system behavior, failure modes, reliability etc on top of delivering high fuel efficiency. I am familiar with hybrids because I've worked with them Trust me, a series is nasty. Parallel, a bit simpler, but from product development perspective, just as nasty.

quote:

There is a reason why full on series hybrids have the highest return. The mechanical aspect can be set to run at its maximum efficiency (for metal bearings that is usually close to the point of failure) and only necessary to produce electricity. And they could then make everything electric. No more oil based steering pumps, etc.

You set the hybrids to work on an optimal point on the torque-speed curve, thereby maximizing efficiency. Not to maximize its components efficiency.

Drive-by-wire systems are complicated. It will take time to replace the humble hydraulic steering system. And let me tell you, a hydraulic steering unit is an extremely complicated mechanical component. You will appreciate if you try to write down the differential equations governing the its dynamics

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M Why bother? Because that's a simpler technology to work with. A series hybrid needs a completely new control system. For parallel hybrids, you need some adaptation because you are pretty much using the same transmission. But series is a completely different beast. When you talk about a production spec. system, you gotta be very sure you understand the system behavior, failure modes, reliability etc on top of delivering high fuel efficiency. I am familiar with hybrids because I've worked with them Trust me, a series is nasty. Parallel, a bit simpler, but from product development perspective, just as nasty. You set the hybrids to work on an optimal point on the torque-speed curve, thereby maximizing efficiency. Not to maximize its components efficiency. Drive-by-wire systems are complicated. It will take time to replace the humble hydraulic steering system. And let me tell you, a hydraulic steering unit is an extremely complicated mechanical component. You will appreciate if you try to write down the differential equations governing the its dynamics

They are nasty, but we make the investment now, get it going, and it has time to mature. What are we going to do? Wait till 2059 when we need it now?

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Morello http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

great picture. thanks for the suggestion and i suggest everyone to watch it too

NYPD goes Hybrid

Nissan Altima Hybrid

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At 35 miles per gallon for city driving, the hybrid Altima gets double the gas mileage of the Impala, which gets only 16 miles per gallon.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

People act like thats a big deal.

My 2002 Mercedes get 34.

My Wife's 1997 Honda Accord V6 gets 32 MPG.

I just don't see why Hybrids are so much better. My Benz gets great gas mileage, and its hella fun to drive... and doesn't look like a lunchbox on wheels.

Hybrid = G H E Y

irrelevant comparison of the drag coefficients since the 911 requires a hell of a lot more down force thus increasing drag. drag isnt a huge factor in efficiency until you reach highway speeds.

Re: Re: Re: Hybrids

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel They do start and stop. I took the train every day for a year, and they start and stop just like cars do. They have no traffic though for the most part, so that isn't an issue.

since trains require alot more power, it makes sense to use diesel electric (or in some cases, turbine electric) drive systems. the larger scale diesel generators are much more efficient than the smaller scale ones used in the prius for example.

not to mention, you will notice that trains dont vary the rpm speed on their generators very much so they operate almost always at constant rpm for greatest efficiency.

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