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It seems to me that at this point, you aren't interest in a mono, so your options are DSI Tetra/Prophet or Andy. I could never seem to get any decent pads out of the Prophet... but the Andy rocks them.

Like I said, the Andy can do everything the Prophet can and sound better at it. But, the Prophet may be enough for you. It's a lot smaller, so reselling wouldn't be a big deal. Once you buy an Andromeda, you're kinda stuck.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo It seems to me that at this point, you aren't interest in a mono

Well, the way I am looking at it, I'll get a poly first because I think it will be more versatile. If I already had an outboard poly, then the situation might be different. I hope I haven't given you the impression that I am dismissing your suggestions, because that was not my intent. I think they have helped me make my decision to go poly before mono. I figure I can get the analog poly first, then look into a mono.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo so your options are DSI Tetra/Prophet or Andy. I could never seem to get any decent pads out of the Prophet... but the Andy rocks them.

Really? You had some pretty cool sounding pads on your demo. That being said, getting pads out of the unit is going to be important to me.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Like I said, the Andy can do everything the Prophet can and sound better at it. But, the Prophet may be enough for you. It's a lot smaller, so reselling wouldn't be a big deal. Once you buy an Andromeda, you're kinda stuck.

The main thing steering me away from the A6 right now is the sheer complexity. I don't want to get a good outboard analog then only use the presets. I'm not a great programmer, but I'm not a total newb either. I 'm just afraid that the A6 is SO complicated that it'll be a bit like trying to run before I learn to walk, you know what I mean?

quote:

Some more testing of the filter. The Pulse seems to be quite overdriven

Thats why i like the pulse! You obviously have the oscillators turned up high. Turn them right down and turn up the master instead. You will then get a completely clear, clean sound. Turn them right up and you get quite heavy analogue distortion. Its the way the pulse was built to overdrive the mixer section!

It makes the pulse unbelievably versitile as far as tone goes as you can just dial in as much grit or smoothness as you want.

Its a similar effect to routing the headphone output of the voyager back into the external input and turning up the mixer level.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J The main thing steering me away from the A6 right now is the sheer complexity. I don't want to get a good outboard analog then only use the presets. I'm not a great programmer, but I'm not a total newb either. I 'm just afraid that the A6 is SO complicated that it'll be a bit like trying to run before I learn to walk, you know what I mean?

What aspect in particular seems complex?

There are a few things that I do to make it not so complex... I ignore decay 2 and release 2, I pretty much always set the patche's envelope processing to fast/snappy (there's a dedicated button for doing this), and I typically won't do a whole lot of modulation. I ignore "croutes". Whatever they are, it's not important. I also only use the analog distortion for FX. I only ever use one slope for the decay envelope.

Most of the buttons you see are for modulation. But once you figure out how modulation works, it all kind of makes sense. It's a lot like a modular synth and all the mod buttons are your patch cables. You click the "mod" button for, say, OSC1, then select the source and the destination. LFO 1 -> pitch, for example. Or for filter, you select the Mod button next to the filter knob, select mod wheel -> frequency.

The other buttons are "view" buttons. That's just for viewing the settings BEFORE you make any changes to them. So you have a basis for return.

It probably mostly looks daunting because there is no switching between OSCs/envelopes/filters/lfos. Not a single button or knob shares a function. It's a lot like the Q Keyboard.

Seriously, after just a bit of manual reading, and experimentation, I can attack that keyboard like we've been married for a decade. It's actually quite fun since you always have to be moving your hands around this giant cock-pit of a synth. Here are a few things I DO NOT like about the andy:

1. It doesn't come in a rack. Because of this, it takes up a lot of space. I accidentally spilled beer on the keyboard when it was right on my desktop (in front of me). Now the upper octave doesn't work (just the keyboard, the notes still trigger through MIDI). So now I have to un-do all the screws, be careful to not break the extremely fragile plastic modling on the sides, and clean up the keyboard.

I'll do it when I feel like tackling a four hour project. I'd highly recommend putting it off to the side and using a simple MIDI controller. That's what I'm doing now. You have a bigger desk than me, so it may work. But it is a desktop hog and you don't want to spill anything on it or whatever.

2. The third envelope is kind of slow to start modulating. There's literally a split second delay before it does. Makes it not as useful as other 3rd envelopes.

3. Some aspects were thought out way too much. The envelopes in particular. Who needs two decays and releases? They also allow you to select different slopes for the decay. I only ever use one out of the 8 or so you can choose. "Linear 1".

4. If it ever just stops working, which I guess isn't likely, but who knows, I'd have to either find a way to get a replacement voice or CPU board, or just buy another one. The nice thing about the Andy vs vintage analogs is there are a shit load of them out there. Same goes for the Prophet '08. You won't have a hard time finding a replacement. I'd like to think I'm in-it for the long-haul with the Andy, so I am expecting that some day it will stop working. Who knows, though, most Jupiter 8s and Prophet Vs still work.


On a side note, I snagged a demo of Jupiter 8v to compare it to the Andy. They're actually quite close a number of times. I'm going to do some more comparing later today... maybe I'll put up a few demos.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo What aspect in particular seems complex? There are a few things that I do to make it not so complex... I ignore decay 2 and release 2, I pretty much always set the patche's envelope processing to fast/snappy (there's a dedicated button for doing this), and I typically won't do a whole lot of modulation. I ignore "croutes". Whatever they are, it's not important. I also only use the analog distortion for FX. I only ever use one slope for the decay envelope.

Yeah the 7-stage envelopes were a bit daunting. I had a Roland JD-800 for a short time, and I had the same problem with those. Its good to know I can jut ignore the decay2 and release2 and then they'll behave like typical 5 stage envelopes (ADSTR).

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Most of the buttons you see are for modulation. But once you figure out how modulation works, it all kind of makes sense. It's a lot like a modular synth and all the mod buttons are your patch cables. You click the "mod" button for, say, OSC1, then select the source and the destination. LFO 1 -> pitch, for example. Or for filter, you select the Mod button next to the filter knob, select mod wheel -> frequency. The other buttons are "view" buttons. That's just for viewing the settings BEFORE you make any changes to them. So you have a basis for return. It probably mostly looks daunting because there is no switching between OSCs/envelopes/filters/lfos. Not a single button or knob shares a function. It's a lot like the Q Keyboard.

OK, that does make me feel a little bit better.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo On a side note, I snagged a demo of Jupiter 8v to compare it to the Andy. They're actually quite close a number of times. I'm going to do some more comparing later today... maybe I'll put up a few demos.

I'll be very interested in that, since the Jupiter 8V is also fairly prominent in my setup. The analog pads on that one are outstanding, and its great for weird FX. If they would only make the interface a lot bigger.

Now, a couple of questions about the quality of the A6.

1. Did you buy yours new or used?

2. I have read about some tuning problems and bad voice chips, have you experienced any of these issues?

3. Have you had to deal with Alesis support at all? Lots of threads moaning on how awful they are.

I'm a little fearful about dropping $3K on a synth with little to no support safety net. There are some threads over on electro-music.com that talk about needing to replace voice boards for like $800, and getting in there and soldering parts. That stuff is not in my wheelhouse.

I'm really torn here. They both seem like good units, but I can only get one. The Andromeda is more expensive, but loads of people, including yourself, say its the best modern analog poly. I have heard a LOT of cool sounds that would be immediately useful for me. However, the unit has been seemingly abandoned by Alesis, and new units are only produced in "batches"? I fear getting one and having it break 6 months later and cost me $1,000 to fix. Now I have sunk $4,000 into a unit? That's really scary.

The P08 is cheaper, new, and has way better support, but the more I listen to demos, I think you are right in that it just doesn't have the sonic palette of the A6. I have heard some cool analog strings, but nothing I would call a "pad" in the traditional sense. Being able to produce usable pads is important to me. A lot of the sounds I heard are definitely cool, but not necessarily useful for my type of music. It only has a Low pass filter, and no built in FX (not a huge deal).

Yes, when you turn any of the Decay 2 / Release 2 knobs all the way to the left, the light turns off and they are literally bypassed... it then becomes an ADSR. There is no time control and there is a D2 and R2 level, but I ignore that as well since I ignore decay/release 2.

One of the things I really like about the Andy is how quirky the instrument is. It has a lot of neat little things that you would only get from an analog. Turning the OSC level up past 30 begins to over-drive the circuit, for example. Also, when the sub osc is only a little way up, it doesn't sound like it's there, rather it just fattens the OSC its tied to (there is a sub for each osc).

I got mine used. It was a rare find and deal on eBay. It was listed pretty poorly, bad pics, not a good explanation. It went for $1650 including S/H if I remember correctly. it had a broken rear voice output (8/16 voices -- not one of the main outs). But it turns out the output still works, it was just cosmetically damaged.

After I bought and paid, it turns out the unit had been in storage since it was manufactured. In 2000! The person I bought it from bought it brand new from a dealer/collector only a few months before.

This is a huge win for me because it was practically brand new and was manufactured BEFORE Alesis was bought out by Numark and shipped manufacturing over to Taiwan. That's why there are turning problems (and also why you should never outsource). They fucked it up and an entire batch of who knows how many Andromedas had a few dead (untunable) voices.

So long as you avoid one that was manufactured during that batch, you won't have an issue. It was some time in 2005, I believe. You can google around to get the specifics. But it was just that single batch of Andromedas. They fixed it right after.

Soldering and such is not my cup-a-tea, either. But the voice and CPU boards are quite easy to swap. Here's a picture of mine, I took it apart to fix a broken key. Now I need to do it again to clean out the beer. :\ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rScBRKlTd...-h/DSCN1922.JPG

The problem is finding a board. I wouldn't want to have to buy an entirely new keyboard if, say, the voices were dead. But a good thing is that in the settings, you can disable voices if one goes dead. If 3 out of 16 go ten years from now, I won't be too flustered.

Andy vs Jupiter 8v. First plays the andy, then Jupiter 8v. They alternate back and forth. VERY similar. Need to do some unison tests.

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/12.mp3

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J The P08 is cheaper, new, and has way better support, but the more I listen to demos, I think you are right in that it just doesn't have the sonic palette of the A6.

I don't own an A6, but I have no doubt that you are correct there. However, I would add that I haven't heard very many demos that really show off how usable the P08 is - most of the demos seem to be showing off how much it can sound like a Prophet 5 (i.e., relatively boring 70s/80s sounds).

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J I have heard some cool analog strings, but nothing I would call a "pad" in the traditional sense. Being able to produce usable pads is important to me. A lot of the sounds I heard are definitely cool, but not necessarily useful for my type of music. It only has a Low pass filter, and no built in FX (not a huge deal).

True again. The P08 is capable of producing some killer pads, BUT, the 8 voices is a severe limitation. The architecture of the P08 provides two layers (A & B) for each patch, so you can create some beautiful evolving layered pads with it (especially when you invoke the step sequencer), but each layer uses one voice, so you're left with 4-note polyphony when doing so. Voice stealing is VERY noticeable at that point.

So, if you want something specifically/primarily for pads, I'd look at other synths with more voices, or plan on recording multiple different patches and layering the audio with a P08. As alanzo mentioned earlier, the NL3 (or NL2X) is an incredible synth for pads (and just about anything else) - it's not analog, but it has 24 voices, lots of modulation, multiple filter types, etc.

Andy first, then Jupiter 8v. Again, VERY close. The Jupiter is just a little darker so I put in 3db of treble boost. Now I see why so many people have been going to soft synths! Still need to do some more comparisons...

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/13.mp3

Hey Eric i know Cyro normally posts up some links to equipments i beat him to it this time lol
im not sure what you have decided but i found these on VSE thought you might be interested

Both are for Andromeda's

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/v...php?f=9&t=50009

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/v...php?f=9&t=50418

from what i can see they are both still available


hope the decision making is coming along

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/14.mp3

Andy first, then Jupiter. The Andy sounds a lot smoother in this one. Also, unison detune on square waves with the Arturia synth sounds AWFUL. It sounded fine with saw waves. I also don't really like the envelops on the Jupiter, again, Arturia screwed that up.

I have unison detune turned off for this one becuase it sounded so bad. There is also a 3db treble boost on the Jupiter.

Here's something to demonstrate the square wave unison detune phasing issue on the Jupiter. The first is a patch with all OSCs set to saw. They sound almost identical. 2nd is the same patch but I switched to square. It sounds pretty bad on the Jupiter. Order goes Andromeda then Jupiter alternating.

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/15.mp3
http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/16.mp3

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/17.mp3

A stupid little pluck melody. Andy first,then Jupiter. Almost no difference.

Again, with filter open :

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/18.mp3

unison turned on to 2:

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/19.mp3

Alright, that's enough demos. I gotta say, I think you're just fine with what you have. Minimonsta sounds incredibly close to the moog.. and Jupiter 8v sounds incredibly close to the Andy. And given that I *don't* like the sound of the Prophet '08, maybe the Arturia Prophet V will sound better since it's modeled after the Prophet V.

In every instance, the Jupiter 8v sounded either as good or not quite as good (but close). I'd say the main draw-back is its capabilities. The Andy has sub OSCs and LFOs for every voice, for example. But for $100.. fuck. I could get a copy of Cubase 5, Minimonsta, and Jupiter 8v all for about 1/3 what I'd get back for just the Voyager. Although I may not bother with Minimonsta because I like the Pulse better. It's much more unique. Maybe you should just get a Pulse?

But if I start using VSTis, the issue of CPU usage comes up... I've never quite tested out my quad-core 3ghz CPU. Maybe it can handle what I need. An upgrade is pretty much out of the question. It doesn't get too much better than what I have (at least not reasonably priced).

BUT.. some of my synths I definitely won't be getting rid of. I think the issue with software is that it has a bad-name because of all the developers who have no idea what they're doing, just throw together an instrument without a frame of reference (the original Moog, for example), and cal it a day after only a few months. It's all about how well the instrument is made. There are plenty of shitty hardware synths out there, just like there are plenty of shitty software synths. But once matched, they're pretty much even. And where they're not even, Software makes up for it with its price and usability.

All that being said, I definitely won't sell my NL3.. there just is nothing else that soudns like it. Same goes for the Waldorf Pulse and Xt. I may demo a copy of Largo to see how it compares to the Q...

I may compare the TX 802 to FM7, as well. Although I haven't really used it AT ALL since I bought it a couple months ago. I just tested it and screwed it into the rack.

So, we'll see where I go from here. I'm in no rush to start throwing my Voyager and Andy up on the bay.... but... maybe I will.

Alright, on more.. http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_cl...APFAPFAPFAP.mp3

Just listen to that. It's SOFTWARE. Jupiter8v. Even my friend the analog dork as impressed. Sounds no different from the Andromeda.

would really like to get your opinion on largo alanzo - i actually bought it and sold it because it was too unfriendly to use, but I couldn't deny the beauty in its sound. The 4x layering was obviously very nice even though it ate CPU like mad.

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley would really like to get your opinion on largo alanzo - i actually bought it and sold it because it was too unfriendly to use, but I couldn't deny the beauty in its sound. The 4x layering was obviously very nice even though it ate CPU like mad.

I'll have to buy a copy of Cubase, first. Jupiter 8v and Largo will only work with a legit copy of Cubase (I'm still using a cracked SX3).

just get a cracked copy of ableton 7

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley just get a cracked copy of ableton 7

That won't work, either, because once I install the latest version of Syncrosoft, my cracked copy of Cubase is fucked. I had to format and reinstall when I did that yesterday ...

well bloody hell

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Alright, that's enough demos. I gotta say, I think you're just fine with what you have. Minimonsta sounds incredibly close to the moog.. and Jupiter 8v sounds incredibly close to the Andy. And given that I *don't* like the sound of the Prophet '08, maybe the Arturia Prophet V will sound better since it's modeled after the Prophet V. In every instance, the Jupiter 8v sounded either as good or not quite as good (but close). I'd say the main draw-back is its capabilities. The Andy has sub OSCs and LFOs for every voice, for example. But for $100.. fuck. I could get a copy of Cubase 5, Minimonsta, and Jupiter 8v all for about 1/3 what I'd get back for just the Voyager. Although I may not bother with Minimonsta because I like the Pulse better. It's much more unique. Maybe you should just get a Pulse? But if I start using VSTis, the issue of CPU usage comes up... I've never quite tested out my quad-core 3ghz CPU. Maybe it can handle what I need. An upgrade is pretty much out of the question. It doesn't get too much better than what I have (at least not reasonably priced). BUT.. some of my synths I definitely won't be getting rid of. I think the issue with software is that it has a bad-name because of all the developers who have no idea what they're doing, just throw together an instrument without a frame of reference (the original Moog, for example), and cal it a day after only a few months. It's all about how well the instrument is made. There are plenty of shitty hardware synths out there, just like there are plenty of shitty software synths. But once matched, they're pretty much even. And where they're not even, Software makes up for it with its price and usability. All that being said, I definitely won't sell my NL3.. there just is nothing else that soudns like it. Same goes for the Waldorf Pulse and Xt. I may demo a copy of Largo to see how it compares to the Q... I may compare the TX 802 to FM7, as well. Although I haven't really used it AT ALL since I bought it a couple months ago. I just tested it and screwed it into the rack. So, we'll see where I go from here. I'm in no rush to start throwing my Voyager and Andy up on the bay.... but... maybe I will.

Wow, I hope i didn't steer you in the direction of software unnecessarily. I mean, I always liked the sound, but I never really had the opportunity to do a side by side comparison with the hardware it modeled. Whatever you decide to do, let me know if you decide to get rid of any of that stuff. I might take it off your hands IF the funds are available (that's a big IF).

BTW--If you like the Minimonsta, I highly recommend checking out G-Force's other emulations. I have impOSCar and its a truly unique beast with features i haven't seen on other synths. Strong oscillators, unique envelopes, and a filter separation function that does crazy things to the sound. Highly recommended.

As for CPU, I have a quad-core Mac Pro at 2.66, and I tend to use most of my available CPU on a typical track. Right now, the only software instruments I use regularly are Minimonsta, Minimoog V, Jupiter 8V, Massive and ES2. Combine that with UAD plugs, typical Waves stuff and Logic internal plugins, and I easily use 70-80% CPU.

However, it isn't really a problem. I can finish entire tracks without freezing most of the time. I usually bounce any type of custom FX, but leave everything else. I make tech/progressive house, so you may have more layers, but I can send you a couple of example tracks if need be.

Now keep in mind, I originally sold all my hardware mainly because I was trying to improve a few high priority items in my setup. I wanted top-notch monitors, audio interface, and computer. I already had the Mac Pro, so I looked at it as: There is no point in having great hardware if the three most important pieces of your setup are lacking. I sunk all that sold hardware money into the Focal Twins, and now I am sinking my money into a good 2 channel ADDA converter. I'll get great DA so I can mix and master better, and I figure any advantage I might get with outboard isn't going to matter if it gets recorded into a crappy AD converter.

The one thing you may miss without hardware is the tactile interface. Thats one of the reasons I am considering adding SOME hardware back to my setup after selling all of it a year or so ago. I have a good workflow habit now, and I can see much better how some types of external hardware might be beneficial to my setup. Instead of being a distraction, it can now be an advantage. I'm not only a better producer, but I am a better songwriter. That is huge.

The NL3 is indeed the one synth I regret selling, but honestly, I had higher priorities at the time of the sale. It was, however, the best master MIDI keyboard I have ever had, and I have still not found a Software Instrument equivalent, so I may repurchase at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Wow, I hope i didn't steer you in the direction of software unnecessarily.

I wouldn't go that far just yet.

My primary arguments against software instruments are still valid. I'm spending money for something that isn't really a tangible good. No one wants to buy used software. Even if they do, companies will charge you a fee to re-register. So it's a lose-lose situation. I have all my gear, it's all paid off, I have no significant debt to take care of.

I just never knew the software emulations sounded so close. I always assumed they were no where near. The physical instruments are still best for their usability and sound and buying software feels a lot more like wasted money then when I buy a physical item. The upside is they're a lot cheaper ...

i dont know the true nature of the inner workings of a synth. but like you said they emulate, and are virtual, therefore ultimately they are a composite reality. Which you know anyways. And from my point of view most digital synths these days are basically almost/are VST like, in a sense, with the bonus of some knobs and buttons.

hence i think, thats why the sound structure is somewhat the same!

please kick me in the ass if wrong - im still learning

Hardware or software, Virus is the greatest trance synth imo, i have yet to find a software equivalent for that.
Nexus helps, Sylenth does an ok job but the effects are no good, z3ta can sound a bit similar, but not Massive or Albino, or any other ive tried.

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