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I find it hard to believe Juno has more sales than BP (digital only btw) because it would contradict everything I've heard in the last couple of years.

Have you actually got any solid data to show it does? Anything?

There is just too much old music in the juno charts for them to be selling the most records.

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Originally posted by Subtle There is just too much old music in the juno charts for them to be selling the most records.

That has nothing to do with it. You don't know (and neither do I) the degrading factors Beatport and Juno use. Juno tries to give weekly time frames, but still uses a deteriorating formula. Beatport doesn't give any options. They bury music hourly.

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Originally posted by Fledz I find it hard to believe Juno has more sales than BP (digital only btw) because it would contradict everything I've heard in the last couple of years. Have you actually got any solid data to show it does? Anything?

This is an impossible question to answer, even if you owned one of the companies we're discussing. And while sales are great, they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. The worthless Deadmau5 makes the same amount of money in 3 weeks than he's made from his entire sales and licensing of music. (Sample CD not included)

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Originally posted by Storyteller Let's just say I'm speaking from my own experience as well as others within my network. I've actually done a research project on this subject (main subject: "Where do the opportunities lie to earn a decent income from music production") little over a year ago which involved responses from labels such as Armada/Cloud 9 dance, Spinnin', Flashover, Intuition and tons of smaller labels. None of them mentioned Juno as an important contributing factor. And yet those labels cover almost the entire spectrum of popular dutch progressive/trance dutch artists in the DJ top 100 and even a significant part of globally well-respected artists. It's not just me, my remarks are based on several weeks of research. A bit over 1 year old however. But as I said in my edited previous post, the market share of Beatport I'm estimating might be off due to the fact that certain shops perform well within a few genres while permorming less on others.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there is a big difference between a random email (from a year ago as you pointed out) versus actually talking with the movers & shakers. If I received a random email like that asking me questions as such I would flat out lie (especially if I ran some of the labels you mentioned)

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there is a big difference between a random email (from a year ago as you pointed out) versus actually talking with the movers & shakers. If I received a random email like that asking me questions as such I would flat out lie (especially if I ran some of the labels you mentioned)

I never said it's all based on random emails . They were all asked to be part of this and were happy to help and actually interested in the results as well. I know all those people personally and I can tell you that apart from one of them they all had pretty detailed answers. They're people I do a bit of bussines with and some I even consider to be a good friend . Some interviews where done in person, some by phone and some by email.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there is a big difference between a random email (from a year ago as you pointed out) versus actually talking with the movers & shakers. If I received a random email like that asking me questions as such I would flat out lie (especially if I ran some of the labels you mentioned)

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Originally posted by Fledz Have you actually got any solid data to show it does? Anything?

All I'm hearing at the moment is a creationist trying to convince me evolution is wrong.

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Originally posted by Fledz All I'm hearing at the moment is a creationist trying to convince me evolution is wrong.

Works both ways then if you want to play that game. Prove me wrong.

Thanks for proving my point. I don't need to. It's well established that BP is the market leader. You're the one that's stirring the pot without any evidence to back it up.

And he's not doing any bussiness with them thus unable to directly see it for himself . BP is especially relevant in the progressive and electro house genres. His label's loss :P

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Originally posted by Fledz Thanks for proving my point. I don't need to. It's well established that BP is the market leader. You're the one that's stirring the pot without any evidence to back it up.

Well established?

It's well established that Jesus walked the earth, and it is the biggest and most powerful religion ever. There is no way it could not be true.

Don't believe me?

Here, [email protected]

Email him and ask them for BP's balance sheet. I'm sure he's more than willing to give it out.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Works both ways then if you want to play that game. Prove me wrong.

Come on, you're going to have to do better than that. You have stated that Beatport is not the market leader but in fact Juno is No 1.

This goes against the common belief by EVERYONE that Beatport has a large majority of the market. All you have posted to prove otherwise is a site listing number of visitors. This in itself doesnt prove anything and incidentally, I used the site and Beatport came out on top anyway unless I did something wrong.

Dont mean to be offensive, but it sounds as if you are jealous because your label is not releasing through beatport? Thus saying it doesn't matter as juno etc are better?

From your own findings Beatport had 39,000 unique visitors last month

junodownload only had only 17,000

Beatport had more than double the unique visitors, potentially doubling sales. That is not to mention beatport have a hell of a lot more hits that arn't unique visits! Your findings are completely flawed!

Overall visits to Junodownload last month 19,860

Overall visits to Beatport last month 77,991

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Originally posted by xphonix Dont mean to be offensive, but it sounds as if you are jealous because your label is not releasing through beatport? Thus saying it doesn't matter as juno etc are better? From your own findings Beatport had 39,000 unique visitors last month junodownload only had only 17,000 Beatport had more than double the unique visitors, potentially doubling sales. That is not to mention beatport have a hell of a lot more hits that arn't unique visits! Your findings are completely flawed! Overall visits to Junodownload last month 19,860 Overall visits to Beatport last month 77,991

No offense taken. I can see how somebody might believe that. Has nothing to do with it. Not having Beatport as a distributor has actually been good because it has forced me to learn about other distributors, etc. (It's been a blessing in disguise), and it's only a matter of time until Beatport is added to the distributor list. I have no interest in defaming them. They're a good distributor.

Going back to compete, you need to understand more about Juno before simply punching things in. Perhaps I should have done more than just post a few links. Let me break it down for you.

First, Juno is a much larger company than Beatport. They've been around for at least a decade (I ordered some of my first vinyls from them) and know what they're doing.

Regarding unique IP visits. I don't see how people here can dismiss these numbers so easily??? Do people here realize it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare straight up numbers due to so many factors? (Genres, Labels and their associated genres, etc)

There is no better gauge available to us besides unique IP visits. If you don't believe this to be true, feel free to say so but don't do so without offering a better, quantifiable solution.

Taken from compete.com: (Results from 07/2009)

www.beatport.com : 37,326
www.juno.co.uk: 19,997
www.junodownload.com: 17,725

Juno company (37,722)

Trending (Yearly change)
Beatport.com - stagnant
junodownload.com + 70%
juno.co.uk - 25%

Stephen, are you still saying that Juno is the number one download site, and at this moment in time sells more downloads than beatport?

Yes or No?

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Originally posted by G-Con Stephen, are you still saying that Juno is the number one download site, and at this moment in time sells more downloads than beatport? Yes or No?

#1. Define number one download site, please. I will say this though. If I had to choose between one company to deal with for the rest of my life, Beatport or Juno, the answer would be beyond easy and the answer would be Juno.

#2. I never claimed anything regarding sales. There is nobody on this planet who can answer the question you just asked me. It would take the owners (two people) of both companies to come together and publicly make available their hopefully untainted sales data, which will never, ever happen.

Ok Stephen. I see what you are getting at although it is not fair to include juno.co.uk in the equation. They sell hardware equipment, software, vinyl, cd, sample dvds etc. Beatport do not. I thought this debate was about digital distribution. If it is, it is only really fair to compare junodownload to beatport.

It does seem as though junodownload is growing though, but at this time it seems beatport is still the clear-cut winner as far as popularity and most likely sales.

I know juno has been going a long time. I used to buy my records from there and chemical records many years ago!

By the way, im pretty sure you will be able to get onto beatport now. They just dont want to take on any old label with no back catalogue. Some of your releases sound quite good!

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley I not only love the late 90's sound, but I also want to "ressurrect" some of the artists from its time. Everything is stale for the most part in music genres.

Not sure how these two ideas are compatible. You think these older artists will bring something new to the table, besides just matching market leader styles?

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Originally posted by xphonix Ok Stephen. I see what you are getting at although it is not fair to include juno.co.uk in the equation. They sell hardware equipment, software, vinyl, cd, sample dvds etc. Beatport do not. I thought this debate was about digital distribution. If it is, it is only really fair to compare junodownload to beatport. It does seem as though junodownload is growing though, but at this time it seems beatport is still the clear-cut winner as far as popularity and most likely sales. I know juno has been going a long time. I used to buy my records from there and chemical records many years ago! By the way, im pretty sure you will be able to get onto beatport now. They just dont want to take on any old label with no back catalogue. Some of your releases sound quite good!

I include juno.co.uk because our releases are available through there, just like they are junodownload.com - but liked you noted, they sell other things. In particular vinyl (lets be real, people don't buy hardware from them!) - That's another factor that makes me like Juno much more. I'm most likely going to be pressing 500 vinyl soon, and I've already got one huge distributor fully ready to go.

Chemicalrecords - Good one. Solarstone had 150 vinyls pressed of his Radiohead remix and sold them all through there. Great company who I will likely be contacting soon.

As for Beatport, I'm really not concerned about them anymore. I thought they were the holy grail and the only way a label could function or recruit artists when I started Olympik, but over time the company has becoming less and less appealing for a multitude of reasons. My label aggregator (label-worx) is in charge of gathering distributors now and they do follow ups for all pending applications so that's their business/job/concern now, not mine (It's a 100% commission based service).

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Originally posted by Beatflux Not sure how these two ideas are compatible. You think these older artists will bring something new to the table, besides just matching market leader styles?

Yes, I do.

I think the old successful artists such as the ones we have discussed are not only more talented than artists today, but much, MUCH more intelligent and bring tons more to the table. These were guys who would eat their children to be perceived as unique and artistic and took great pride in it. These days all you have are people who are the polar opposite, which is why we are where we are.

Ok, but I do think the comment I originally quoted from you is a little misleading.

Still, never mind, doesnt really matter anyway.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Yes, I do. I think the old successful artists such as the ones we have discussed are not only more talented than artists today, but much, MUCH more intelligent and bring tons more to the table. These were guys who would eat their children to be perceived as unique and artistic and took great pride in it. These days all you have are people who are the polar opposite, which is why we are where we are.

You have to realize several things. First; the climate is different. Those artists had far less competition and made far more money. Thus they had the time and money accorded by past successful productions to not rush out ideas of future tracks. In today's digital era where there are so many producers; it's just not possible to do this unless you're a purist. Luckily I am, and I don't make my living from music yet, but there are many people who do. In order for them to stay profitable at all they have to put out more works to keep the small amount of income streaming in. I actually think a lot of the artists today are more talented, but deal with greater hurdles in the present climate.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 You have to realize several things. First; the climate is different. Those artists had far less competition and made far more money. Thus they had the time and money accorded by past successful productions to not rush out ideas of future tracks. In today's digital era where there are so many producers; it's just not possible to do this unless you're a purist. Luckily I am, and I don't make my living from music yet, but there are many people who do. In order for them to stay profitable at all they have to put out more works to keep the small amount of income streaming in. I actually think a lot of the artists today are more talented, but deal with greater hurdles in the present climate.

IMO, therein lies the problem. Producers should worry less about amount of productions (quantity) and more about making a few outstanding productions a year. Competition should be irrelevant.

Many of those artists from 90's actually had full time day jobs - and only gave them up when time restictions (not money) forced them to.

Tony De Vit was the biggest hard house producer and pioneer of the late 80's and early 90's and only gave up his full time computer programming job in 1995.

Even Danny Howells who really broke through in the very late 90's only gave up his day job in the early 2000's becuase he was too busy living on planes for gigs.

Chicane/Disco Citizens (Nick Bracegirdle) - only put out about 3 tracks a year (apart from albums).

Producers are too keen these days to just want to make a quick buck off a quick production and it's a false economy. They would sell more if they focused on fewer productions and not thought about how they can make rent with their next remix. Don't get me wrong, you gotta eat, but I just think you make more of a mark(and money) in the long run by focusing on quality.

...And that, along with experience and a very good musically historical point of reference, is what these more seasone artists can bring to the table in todays market.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN IMO, therein lies the problem. Producers should worry less about amount of productions (quantity) and more about making a few outstanding productions a year. Competition should be irrelevant. Many of those artists from 90's actually had full time day jobs - and only gave them up when time restictions (not money) forced them to. Tony De Vit was the biggest hard house producer and pioneer of the late 80's and early 90's and only gave up his full time computer programming job in 1995. Even Danny Howells who really broke through in the very late 90's only gave up his day job in the early 2000's becuase he was too busy living on planes for gigs. Chicane/Disco Citizens (Nick Bracegirdle) - only put out about 3 tracks a year (apart from albums). Producers are too keen these days to just want to make a quick buck off a quick production and it's a false economy. They would sell more if they focused on fewer productions and not thought about how they can make rent with their next remix. Don't get me wrong, you gotta eat, but I just think you make more of a mark(and money) in the long run by focusing on quality. ...And that, along with experience and a very good musically historical point of reference, is what these more seasone artists can bring to the table in todays market.

Agree with pretty much everything here. But in todays market you have to go AGAINST the grain in order to be successful. That's something people aren't very good; or at least comfortable doing. When you DO put out 5 smashes a year and you see they hit big but then within a month fall off the map; it discourages people from continuing upon that path.

However what they fail to realize is that once you do that 2-3 years in a row people are going to start noticing and that's when you really will make it in today's age. But most people aren't patient enough for that and probably don't love the music enough to put in the requisite amount of work needed to continually make bangers. Most of these tracks have amazing ideas; or amazing engineering, but they are severely lacking in some area. In basic; the little intricacies aren't paid enough attention to these days. People get their idea, and surround it with what comes to their mind first, and then boom, it's off to the mastering house. I think the full development of ideas is what is lacking today.

The thing about those artists is that most of the people from that time period aren't the hardcore trance people of today. It has evolved too much. Everything back then focused on lush deep prog and epic trance. These days it's all focused on the club and the epic trance produced these days is trash. There is a generation gap being dealt with here...

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 When you DO put out 5 smashes a year and you see they hit big but then within a month fall off the map; it discourages people from continuing upon that path.

IMO a lot of fans are also far less patient due to the easy availability of music these days. They prefer producers who can just churn them out and DJs who will constantly show them the new flavor of the week, and ultimately to them all the tracks are basically forgettable and interchangeable anyway. I think the decreasing cost of music and the movement to intangible formats like MP3 and WAV also contributes to this. Do people treasure MP3s like they treasure vinyls or CDs in their colorful cases, that they can hold in their hands and place in a physical player? Maybe not.

The kind of producer who succeeds in this new environment is of a different sort than the old guys like Lieb and Ferry, IMO: someone who can quickly come up with ideas that are superficially catchy and interesting but have little lasting appeal. This carries over to the "loudness war" style of mastering as well, which is brash and loud and gets immediate attention, but grates after repeated listening. Everything seems to be moving toward the ideal of "flashy but forgettable."

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