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-- Do you ever get the urge to just throw in the towel?
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Over the past 10 years I have taken many breaks, But never actually thought id stop. I noticed a change of styles generally sparked new interest and desire to produce.

I started out making:

epic trance > Progressive Trance > Progressive house > deep house > Detroity Techno > Minimal > Ambient/experimental > now onto Doing Shoegaze/dream pop with some minor electronic influence.

I think if you ever get the feeling of quitting maybe you just need a change of pace. Its all about having fun dude.

i never wanna quit totaly, now im wanna quit software and go the hardware route, as oposite to a few years ago when i was sick of hardware, oposite to a few years before that again where i was sick of computers. before that i was djeing with vinyl and got really tired of that but i want that back in my life now.

conclussion to me is that whenever i get tired of the computer i should change abit and if i had some hardware i could also make some grooves with a drummachine or something.

i think im getting myself a elektron machinedrum soon and a Denon DJ mediaplayer, and borow a friends 1210 so i can switch between three activities and never getting tired:

1. computer/software music making, sequencing.
2. djeing with vinyls and/or mp3/cd (getting denon hd2500 i think, mixer already comming)
3. liveact or just grooveing with ableton and/or elektron machinedrum

this way id never get tired and i could do this the rest of my life (fuck money its just in the way). im an total addict to music and i cant just listen to it anymore, everytime i hear a cool track i want to be creative and i think id explode if i couldnt express myself musicaly. feedback was never important, i could easily do this alone without nobody knowing, its just goodtimes and therapy, makes me feel good

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I wonder if that's not one of the biggest obstacles to creativity for a lot of people right there. So many producers nowadays have fallen into this trap of seeing music production as something that is technical and done at a computer by "visualizing" music, rather than taking the time to learn or improve their musical skills. While it's true that some people can produce a top ten hit with little or no ability to play an instrument, I firmly believe that it stifles your creativity for the vast majority of people. Maybe try loading up a piano patch, turning off your monitor, and focus on just playing and listening.

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Originally posted by Eric J This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to work on. For me, the key to being a good producer starts with being a good songwriter. It seems as if that gets forgotten in this genre of music a lot, especially with the load of melody-devoid music that seems to constantly dominate the Beatport top 10. The problem I have is at 34, I'm not sure how i can speed up my learning. I have been reading music theory books, and practicing a lot, but I wish there was a way to learn faster.

I might lose some people with this but here goes..

Alright so at some point I was shown that all musicians are alchemists. The same goes for artists of any kind. No music or art has ever been "created" it is only translated or transmuted. If you take that into consideration, the music you listen to and react to plays a huge role in what you end up with in the studio, whether you're aware of that fact or not. Humans are very good at reacting to their environment. Being a good song-writer is not exactly something you have to consciously strive for.

Finding music you love and really resonate with is what's ultimately important. That's where the learning occurs. I highly recommend people find music they enjoy from all eras. We have to know where we've come from in order to get an idea of where we're going. The good stuff from the 70's-80's played a huge part in my musical development and I have my parents to thank for that. It seems that what musicians were subjected to as children usually always comes out as an adult long after those songs are forgotten.

Writing music is about reacting to your influences, and that also means everything in your environment, not just music. The more you pull from the more colors you'll have on your pallet to work with. I see a lot of artists unintentionally or unknowingly separating their personal lives from their art when in reality they should be embracing them as intimately connected. Musicians are simply translators of their environment, with varying degrees of honesty and intensity. What you allow into your daily life, the experiences you subject yourself to.. play a huge part in the "creative" (translative) process, whether you're aware of it or not. You'll see these same concepts projected across the board in all facets of the human experience. It's essentially microcosmic evolution.

Getting those movements of nature and relationships from one form into another is where the technical skill comes in, and the right alchemical tools. It seems most musicians I've come across in my life are amazing song-writers with very limited technical ability/resources or dishonest and disconnected imitators with amazing technical skill. In those cases it's a matter of getting your head and heart aligned in order to express your experiences more accurately.

I'm not sure if this will help anyone but I think anyone involved with music would do well to take in as much as they can. Go back to the classic rock era and the progressive rock that followed suit. You can steal so much from those guys and put it into your work and people will think you're awesome and innovative.

quote:

Originally posted by palm this way id never get tired and i could do this the rest of my life (fuck money its just in the way). im an total addict to music and i cant just listen to it anymore, everytime i hear a cool track i want to be creative and i think id explode if i couldnt express myself musicaly. feedback was never important, i could easily do this alone without nobody knowing, its just goodtimes and therapy, makes me feel good

I believe this as well. DJ'ing as well as producing keeps a good balance so you feel productive as long as you're doing SOMETHING musically. I'm an addict as well; there's no going back now. The ideas just pop up left right and center 24/7. They are infinite. And the last sentence is especially awesome and true. The only thing important is that the person making the music enjoys what it offers. If others do as well; all the better. Same thing with money. Not needed; but an added reward for good work.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 I hate the fact that when I listen to (or produce) music these days I hear it in technical terms. I miss the days when I heard it 100% musically. It's still enjoyable but i'd say about 60% less enjoyable than it was in the past. Anybody know how to separate the two or is it just the way it is for some people?

Totally with you on this, I will often hear a track and know pretty much what the producer did, recognise the technique etc.

But that's part of being in the business, you will never hear a piece of music the same way that a novice does. It makes taking music at face value very difficult indeed.

This could be part of the problem in the music industry today not just trance, you have too many people now who fit this category and the simplistic elements that please your average Joe have disapeared. Sometimes we are more concerned with earning the respect of our peers than just writing a song because its how we felt.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Excellent post - the parts I bolded particularly stuck a chord (pun intended) with me.

+1 on quote emphasis bolds.

quote:

Originally posted by nrjizer At some point JBJ you have to let go of the pressure. It's kind of a fucked up catch 22. You want to be making quality music, but it's your relentless drive that is also your hinderance. I've experienced a lot of the same frustrations. Within 4 months of buying Logic and making a serious committment to production, I had created a track that ended up being signed. It's no crown jewel of a track, but it's solid tune and it received positive feedback from some respectable and fairly well known names. After that track was signed, I expected my production output and quality to just go up linearly from that point. That was a year and a half ago. Instead, the opposite happened. Expectations turned into pressure, and pressure turned into stagnation. In retrospect, I see that I was able to create that track becuase I had absolutely zero expectations at that time of creating anything that would be signed. After all, I was only 3-4 months into the game. As such, there was no pressure involved in writing it, and I was able to simply finish it and be content with it. I was quite suprised when it got picked up. Looking back at the last year and a half of my attempted productions, I can not only see a steady improvement in the overall quality and competence of my compositions, but I can pick out a few stalled out projects that were actually pretty damn good. I was unable to see this at the time, however, because I was too busy comparing my tunes to those of my musical heroes. If you're climbing a mountain and you're solely fixated on the top, then you're unable to actually see just how far you've really come. That soundcloud track I posted on the Ishboard was the first thing I've actually been able to flesh out into a full length, start to finish musical expression in a long, long time. It was composed entirely from scratch in the span of 3.5 hours. I had been working on a groove for the past 2 weeks that had completely stalled out, and out of frustration I decided that I was just going to open a new project file and try something else. Within about 60 seconds of noodling I had come up with that bass pattern, and the rest I just completely cranked out without any real expectations. It was only when I was finished that I was able to listen to it and realize that I had actually created something that was (relatively) good. It wouldn't have happened had I not just let my creativity flow without hinderance (This is the track, if anyone's curious). Remove your expectations and pressures. This includes the pressure of trying to write something that you or anyone else could spin. Just make music. You're not going to reach the quality level of your musical heroes if you don't allow yourself the time and space to develop as an artist.

Nice post nrjizer. I'll tell my early non success version. I've been making electronic music as far back as 3-4 years ago that might have done great things if I had sent them out, however I just put them aside and went onto the next project thinking they were'nt good enough to send out. Of course they were'nt good enough to send out from sound quality perspective, because I had little engineering knowledge at the time, and most of the quality labels I was looking into had a high standard in sound. Still, I was having fun making music and learning what I could, and at the same time too critical of myself to want to send anything out. Creatively, I was happy with the arrangements, sound choices, melodies, grooves, and expression that I was getting accross with the music I was making, again the sound quality was holding me back from actually figuring something was worth sending out. So this led to me just stockpiling some nice tracks, while keeping an unsure of their value and hungry attitude. So, I never sent them out and had no accomplishments, nothing to sit back on, just the idea to keep building my craft, while keeping the idea that better sound engineering skills and equipment will come along the way. Virtually everyday, I would wish I had a sound engineer for the past 4 years, or even better a nice studio to work in and do it myself.

Fast forward a bit with improved sound engineering skills over the years, I picked a MOTU 828 MKII and some KRK monitors, thinking they would improve my sound enough to be worth sending some demos out. And thats what exactly they did for me. Though they did'nt necessarily improve my sound, it was more a placebo effect than a big improvement in sound quality, because my mixing skills at this point had gotten quite decent. That placebo effect (thinking the MOTU would improve my sound a lot) allowed the confidence to send my music to a few labels. About a month into sending to a few labels, one of those labels was Rebirth, they signed the first EP 'Deeply Rooted', which has gotten nice feedback so far, some top 10 chartings, and radio play. Now i'm investing more in my sound quality to bring it up to par with my creative side. Pushing to get my sound up to par with top producers out there at the moment, so i've already set a few new goals. I took the long road, HAD to build my craft. Now enjoying some success, but importantly a hardened craft asset that could take me places, starting with Rebirth.

So whats the motto? Keep working, keep developing your craft (with the ideal that you can keep improving),don't give up if your passionate about it.


Daze Deten

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Totally with you on this, I will often hear a track and know pretty much what the producer did, recognise the technique etc. But that's part of being in the business, you will never hear a piece of music the same way that a novice does. It makes taking music at face value very difficult indeed. This could be part of the problem in the music industry today not just trance, you have too many people now who fit this category and the simplistic elements that please your average Joe have disapeared. Sometimes we are more concerned with earning the respect of our peers than just writing a song because its how we felt. Cheers Nem

Yup it comes with the territory and it's not something that taking time off will ever fix it's like riding a bike. But with that said that knowledge also allows us to express ourselves creatively, so it's a big trade off. Doesn't bother me too much anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Nice post nrjizer. I'll tell my early non success version. I've been making electronic music as far back as 3-4 years ago that might have done great things if I had sent them out, however I just put them aside and went onto the next project thinking they were'nt good enough to send out. Of course they were'nt good enough to send out from sound quality perspective, because I had little engineering knowledge at the time, and most of the quality labels I was looking into had a high standard in sound. Still, I was having fun making music and learning what I could, and at the same time too critical of myself to want to send anything out. Creatively, I was happy with the arrangements, sound choices, melodies, grooves, and expression that I was getting accross with the music I was making, again the sound quality was holding me back from actually figuring something was worth sending out. So this led to me just stockpiling some nice tracks, while keeping an unsure of their value and hungry attitude. So, I never sent them out and had no accomplishments, nothing to sit back on, just the idea to keep building my craft, while keeping the idea that better sound engineering skills and equipment will come along the way. Virtually everyday, I would wish I had a sound engineer for the past 4 years, or even better a nice studio to work in and do it myself. Fast forward a bit with improved sound engineering skills over the years, I picked a MOTU 828 MKII and some KRK monitors, thinking they would improve my sound enough to be worth sending some demos out. And thats what exactly they did for me. Though they did'nt necessarily improve my sound, it was more a placebo effect than a big improvement in sound quality, because my mixing skills at this point had gotten quite decent. That placebo effect (thinking the MOTU would improve my sound a lot) allowed the confidence to send my music to a few labels. About a month into sending to a few labels, one of those labels was Rebirth, they signed the first EP 'Deeply Rooted', which has gotten nice feedback so far, some top 10 chartings, and radio play. Now i'm investing more in my sound quality to bring it up to par with my creative side. Pushing to get my sound up to par with top producers out there at the moment, so i've already set a few new goals. I took the long road, HAD to build my craft. Now enjoying some success, but importantly a hardened craft asset that could take me places, starting with Rebirth. So whats the motto? Keep working, keep developing your craft (with the ideal that you can keep improving),don't give up if your passionate about it. This message brought to you by Daze Deten

While I am going to say congrats for getting your first release that is far from success. Your attitude towards your music is good; keep at it, but you've always been an arrogant twat and that continues in this post thinking because you got a release that you've now realized success. As far as i'm concerned there is no such thing as success; and people shouldn't think in the mindset of success/failure; it will just bring bad things to you. Keep working, keep expressing yourself, and whatever else happens doesn't matter.

Success for me is making tunes that I think can stand alongside my personal favorites, regardless of whether anyone wants to sign them or whatever. The source of my despair is still being nowhere near that, at least in my own mind.

your personal favorites aren't made with Live 8 man

quote:

Originally posted by meriter your personal favorites aren't made with Live 8 man

I am not even sure how to reply to this.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 While I am going to say congrats for getting your first release that is far from success. Your attitude towards your music is good; keep at it, but you've always been an arrogant twat and that continues in this post thinking because you got a release that you've now realized success. As far as i'm concerned there is no such thing as success; and people shouldn't think in the mindset of success/failure; it will just bring bad things to you. Keep working, keep expressing yourself, and whatever else happens doesn't matter.

Give me raw examples of "arrogance", or dig yourself back into your hole, because everything i've read from you could be wrapped in toilet paper, and you sound a bit disgruntled i've achieved something perhaps out of your reach?

And you have a rather ignorant outlook about success, I cant help you there.

quote:

Originally posted by meriter I might lose some people with this but here goes.. Alright so at some point I was shown that all musicians are alchemists. The same goes for artists of any kind. No music or art has ever been "created" it is only translated or transmuted. If you take that into consideration, the music you listen to and react to plays a huge role in what you end up with in the studio, whether you're aware of that fact or not. Humans are very good at reacting to their environment. Being a good song-writer is not exactly something you have to consciously strive for. Finding music you love and really resonate with is what's ultimately important. That's where the learning occurs. I highly recommend people find music they enjoy from all eras. We have to know where we've come from in order to get an idea of where we're going. The good stuff from the 70's-80's played a huge part in my musical development and I have my parents to thank for that. It seems that what musicians were subjected to as children usually always comes out as an adult long after those songs are forgotten. Writing music is about reacting to your influences, and that also means everything in your environment, not just music. The more you pull from the more colors you'll have on your pallet to work with. I see a lot of artists unintentionally or unknowingly separating their personal lives from their art when in reality they should be embracing them as intimately connected. Musicians are simply translators of their environment, with varying degrees of honesty and intensity. What you allow into your daily life, the experiences you subject yourself to.. play a huge part in the "creative" (translative) process, whether you're aware of it or not. You'll see these same concepts projected across the board in all facets of the human experience. It's essentially microcosmic evolution. Getting those movements of nature and relationships from one form into another is where the technical skill comes in, and the right alchemical tools. It seems most musicians I've come across in my life are amazing song-writers with very limited technical ability/resources or dishonest and disconnected imitators with amazing technical skill. In those cases it's a matter of getting your head and heart aligned in order to express your experiences more accurately. I'm not sure if this will help anyone but I think anyone involved with music would do well to take in as much as they can. Go back to the classic rock era and the progressive rock that followed suit. You can steal so much from those guys and put it into your work and people will think you're awesome and innovative.

It looks like you've been taking some notes, I'd love to hear how this is translating through your music. Any good examples?

quote:

Originally posted by meriter your personal favorites aren't made with Live 8 man

How expensive does the equipment and DAW have to be to allow a person to make good music? What will I need to buy to take the next step up? Will Logic be required, or will Cubase suffice? Will an Andromeda suffice, or shall I seek out a vintage analog poly like a Jupiter 8?

I couldn't possibly. It's in my blood.. it's a large part of how I define myself. If I'm not working on music, learning, having fun, I'm not living. It's as simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Success for me is making tunes that I think can stand alongside my personal favorites, regardless of whether anyone wants to sign them or whatever. The source of my despair is still being nowhere near that, at least in my own mind.

But at least you know you are and can hopefully progress further everyday towards your goal. The worst is when someone thinks their music is as great as the best out there, but in reality is total crap.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo I couldn't possibly. It's in my blood.. it's a large part of how I define myself. If I'm not working on music, learning, having fun, I'm not living. It's as simple as that.

Yep same way I feel.

It can get annoying at times but I never have considered stopping, it just wouldn't feel right.

When I have a hard way at work, or am stressed, or just feel like being alone and losing myself, music has always been there for me. I love it, I enjoy it, I just could never picture my life w/out it.

And I'm not sure why people even have to think about is as "quitting"?
If its bothering you, just stop now. And if you get the urge in the future com back. But quitting all together just seems a bit extreme..

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Yep same way I feel. It can get annoying at times but I never have considered stopping, it just wouldn't feel right. When I have a hard way at work, or am stressed, or just feel like being alone and losing myself, music has always been there for me. I love it, I enjoy it, I just could never picture my life w/out it. And I'm not sure why people even have to think about is as "quitting"? If its bothering you, just stop now. And if you get the urge in the future com back. But quitting all together just seems a bit extreme..

you are constantly posting threads sayig you're thinking of quitting and how annoying you find it because you can never make good songs...

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Success for me is making tunes that I think can stand alongside my personal favorites, regardless of whether anyone wants to sign them or whatever. The source of my despair is still being nowhere near that, at least in my own mind.

I guarantee that many top producers, in their own minds, despair at not being able to create some of the things other top producers create. Maybe their music has functional pad sounds, which work really well in the mix and leave space for their lead sounds to shine. And for listeners, this may sound fantastic. But the producer may despair when he listens to another producer's lush pad sounds and knows he can't create them at this point in time.

It's good to have an awareness of one's shortcomings, to know what you can work on and improve.

Be aware of what you're trying to create - every song is a compromise. If a functional pad sound works great in your current song, don't compare it to a song which has a lush, massive pad and feel you need to compete with that.

One thing's for sure - there is only one YOU. Nobody's going to be better at making YOUR music than you. BT doesn't worry that his kicks aren't as hard as Sean Tyas'. BT makes his own music his own way.

...this post ended up as a bit of a disorganised ramble, sorry about that...

quote:

Originally posted by derail BT doesn't worry that his kicks aren't as hard as Sean Tyas'. BT makes his own music his own way.

Agreed. When you are a modern day music legend, I don't think you have much to worry about, although I don't think HE thinks of himself in that way.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII you are constantly posting threads sayig you're thinking of quitting and how annoying you find it because you can never make good songs...

He has had a few meltdowns, of the "I've tried EVERYTHING and I KNOW it isn't me, I KNOW that other producers have expensive tools which give them that sound, it CAN'T be done in software, I 100% guarantee it" variety.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Agreed. When you are a modern day music legend, I don't think you have much to worry about, although I don't think HE thinks of himself in that way.

Who the hell is BT?

quote:

Originally posted by meriter Who the hell is BT?

You're kidding, right?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles How expensive does the equipment and DAW have to be to allow a person to make good music? What will I need to buy to take the next step up? Will Logic be required, or will Cubase suffice? Will an Andromeda suffice, or shall I seek out a vintage analog poly like a Jupiter 8?

You don't need a bunch of expensive equipment to "make good music" but if you want your shit to sound like Deadmau8 or whatever you're going to need more than a pirated copy of Reason. Right tools for the right job. No one ever said making music was easy and it's certainly not cheap. If you drop $200 on a drum kit guess what it's going to sound like a $200 drum kit no matter how well you play it, and that's going to kill your inspiration. Ask guitar players if they like playing shitty guitars. Try being a DJ and spinning your awesome set on Gemini belt-driven XL100's. Not saying you should drop a ton of money on equipment but if you want a professional sound a good place to start is with professional tools. In the mean time all you can do is make the best of what you have and work around that. Sampling is a good way to get quality source sounds if your software/hardware isn't cutting it. By the way not all hardware is fundamentally better obviously. You get what you pay for. I've got a yamaha synth that was about $700 in 2000 and it more or less sounds like ass except for a few patches and things which is basically all I use it for at this point.

Also there's nothing like the interface of a hardware synthesizer. I probably don't give FL, Live, Reason ect enough credit and that's obviously personal bias. I could never work with that shit. I need knobs and buttons and LCD menus but that's just what I was raised on.

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