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-- Knee jerk reaction to Ped deaths coming? Councillor wants 10 kph less speed limits
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quote:

Originally posted by gummybear wow..talk about making assumptions based on your unsubstantiated dislike for my internet persona... funny thing is, I have never judged you or called you any names...even though you like to rag on me regularly... i'm sure you never speed either right?

did you miss out on the word "probably"? which basically says "I could be wrong but this is an assumption I'm making"

D.D.A.MADD !@!!!!

lol

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT I WASN'T CONCENTRATING!! ya i yelled back..

Because you were talking on your phone, period.

It's even more disturbing that you don't think you're less capable of driving effectively while on your phone. I freely admit to being less capable while on the phone, and I adjusted my driving habits accordingly (before the ban).

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Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers Because you were talking on your phone, period. It's even more disturbing that you don't think you're less capable of driving effectively while on your phone. I freely admit to being less capable while on the phone, and I adjusted my driving habits accordingly (before the ban).

You can find it as disturbing as you want. I will repeat once again, that it was legal to drive and talk on your cell phone for many years. Now that the government has created this legislation, it is somehow a horrible act? If it is horrible now, it was horrible back then, in which case..what a bunch of horrible people we all were...

I am a responsible adult and if my phone rings because I am on call, I am fully capable of picking up my phone, speaking into it for ten seconds and proceeding in a safe manner. I don't need the government to TEACH me to be accountable. Cell phone users are the LEAST of your worries on the road.

So unless, you follow all the rules of the road perfectly...including never going over the speed limit..ALWAYS making a full stop at all stop signs..NEVER trying to rush through an amber to proceed forward or turn left, etc...please don't judge me..

A kid near my house at a busy intersection was riding his bike across the street while texting and got hit by a car (going the speed limit). Of course it was the driver's fault

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear You can find it as disturbing as you want. I will repeat once again, that it was legal to drive and talk on your cell phone for many years. Now that the government has created this legislation, it is somehow a horrible act? If it is horrible now, it was horrible back then, in which case..what a bunch of horrible people we all were...

there also wasn't a ban on smoking in bars/clubs....i'll let you put the similarities together.

quote:

Originally posted by LKD there also wasn't a ban on smoking in bars/clubs....i'll let you put the similarities together.

i have... but not in the way you meant

dont even get me started on this...

i could write a fucking essay on this topic. How about not allowing 82yold GRANDMAS behind the wheel that would go 30 in a 60 but if they hit a person they won't notice it until completely run over and crush the person? FUCK

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/loca...2/?hub=CP24Home

wheres the fucking law on that, old people should not be allowed to drive once they hit the age of 75 at most, it's just ridiculous. How about toughening the driving exam rules. A degenerate can pass a driving test in this city, all you have to do is drive at the limit and you got your G2. Try getting your license in EU the same way..

Oh and let's lower the limit and let's fucking make the crossing paths with a longer wait time so instead of 1h commute one way it turns into 1.5h commute a day just because jaywalkers and cyclists don't give a fuck and will walk/ride anywhere and everywhere without abiding to the rules.

So what is next, lowering the highway limit to 80km/h because of the accidents? people already go 70km/h on the highway, when i drive 120 in the left lane i feel like i'm driving on a fucking authobahn in germany flying by cars to the right of me, what the fuck is going on in this city, seriously?

with the neglect going on in toronto (failure to build new roads and transit and choking the life out of streets with bike lanes) they wont have to post lower speed limits. It wont be possible to go faster than a bike!!


............ and dont even get me started on the massive fail that will be "transit city"

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Originally posted by Jayx1 i have... but not in the way you meant

lol oh I know.

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A west-end city councillor is pushing for reduced speed limits the morning after the 14th pedestrian was killed on GTA roads this month. High Park Coun. Bill Saundercook would like councillors to research the most dangerous streets in their wards, with the intent of reducing speed limits on those roadways by 10 kilometres per hour. He is putting forward the motion Tuesday, which will be debated on Wednesday. Saundercook�s initiative comes after a 38-year-old woman died after being struck by a SUV in midtown on Monday evening. Toronto police say Juliette Robinson was crossing Davenport Road when she was struck by a northbound Dodge Durango turning left from Symington Avenue at about 6:25 p.m. Sgt. Tim Burrows says she was hit by the SUV while she crossed slightly west of a marked crosswalk. Robinson was trapped under the vehicle and pronounced dead at the scene. Robinson�s brother Everald Dawes describes the victim as a loving, caring person who had just been laid off from her job. He says the family is devastated but adds he doesn�t think reducing traffic speeds will make a difference in pedestrian deaths. Saundercook, on the other hand, sees the speed reduction issue as an urgent one that strikes close to home. He says he has had family members die in pedestrian crashes in his ward, where he has been the councillor for 20 years.

in regards to the latest accident. Id like to know how lowering speed limits would have prevented this death? Seems to me that since the pedestrian crossed outside of the cross walk, the pedestrian was probably at most fault here. (which i see all the time... they often are too lazy to go right to the corner or start to diagionally walk down street to save time)

This comibined with the bus accident, the streetcar accident, the guy yapping on his cell phone and the jwalking elderly person. I fail to see how speed limit reduction could have prevented these deaths.

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear please don't judge me..

I'm not judging you... Why do you think that? This isn't about you.

I don't think ANYONE should be on their phone.

Frequently enough, accidents happen when a couple of things go wrong at the same time and place. One guy is trying to make a red light and speeding/being aggressive, another guy is in a hurry to make a left-hand turn and doesn't wait for the first guy to stop. Had either driver been driving defensively, the accident wouldn't have happen. Do you see where I'm going?

Sure, most of the time nothing bad happens. There's no question. Unfortunately you may only get one chance to make a mistake. I'd feel like a piece of shit for the rest of my life if I hit someone while on my phone (my fault or not!)

quote:

Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers Sure, most of the time nothing bad happens. There's no question.

fuck you man. nothing's happened so far using a cell phone, nothing can happen now.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin So what is next, lowering the highway limit to 80km/h because of the accidents? people already go 70km/h on the highway, when i drive 120 in the left lane i feel like i'm driving on a fucking authobahn in germany flying by cars to the right of me, what the fuck is going on in this city, seriously?

I'm surprised that some of you are surprised, or don't know what's going on in this city.

No wait, I'm not. Just another day in the city of Toronto.

LOL at some people thinking they are expert drivers. Think about it this way, if you were talking on the phone and trying to do your job, or play baseball, or fix your front steps, cook dinner, are you just as capable when not on the phone and doing any of those things? The point is that have now reserved some of your brain power for talking on the phone, rather than the task at hand.

Like DeleteFromUsers said, nothing bad happens most of the time because you usually have enough brain power to do two things. But, when the need arises tobe more attentive during an emergency situation, then that ability is diminished.
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The lowering of speed limits is complete bullshit. I would want the councilor to prove in medical/scientific terms, that lowering the speed would have saved those people.

If they can show that the lower speed limit would either
a) cause less bodily harm and allow the victim to survive, or
b) give the pedestrian/driver that much more time to dodge one another,
then I would be ok with lowering the limit. But I think it's pretty clear that speed was not the issue in most of these cases.

I was taking the street car home last night during rush hour, and there were quite a few close calls (not involving me). I was specifically paying attention because of the recent incidents. I was at Queen and Spadina, which is extremely busy. From what I could see, it did look like the pedestrians were being overly stupid in trying to catch the street cars, or getting across the road. Drivers had their fair share of moments, but it was mostly jay-walking.

This lends itself to the argument, why the hell are we using street cars, with islands in the middle of the street? It's just asking for trouble.

cops have been blitzing pedestrians all over the city today..

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 in regards to the latest accident. Id like to know how lowering speed limits would have prevented this death? Seems to me that since the pedestrian crossed outside of the cross walk, the pedestrian was probably at most fault here. (which i see all the time... they often are too lazy to go right to the corner or start to diagionally walk down street to save time) This comibined with the bus accident, the streetcar accident, the guy yapping on his cell phone and the jwalking elderly person. I fail to see how speed limit reduction could have prevented these deaths.

[devil's advocate] - driving slower should mean both the potential to stop in an emergency before hitting someone... and that also an impact at lower speeds is less likely to result in a fatality.

but realistically... with the way people drive in toronto (i would be surprised if any less than 2/3 of GTA drivers would agree that a 60kph speed limit means to go 70kph) i don't think this would accomplish anything more than greater revenue on speeding tickets.

...maybe that is the goal here?

quote:

Originally posted by daves [devil's advocate] - driving slower should mean both the potential to stop in an emergency before hitting someone... and that also an impact at lower speeds is less likely to result in a fatality. but realistically... with the way people drive in toronto (i would be surprised if any less than 2/3 of GTA drivers would agree that a 60kph speed limit means to go 70kph) i don't think this would accomplish anything more than greater revenue on speeding tickets. ...maybe that is the goal here?

i think that is the goal.

Whats the answer today to stop jwalkers? is it an informational campaign? Is it a change in liability placement? Nope... fines.. and lots of them

Why? Mo money mo money mo money!

Every time there is a crisis the government is there to save us from ourselves with fines up the ass.

Drive slower or we will fine u! cross here or we will fine you!

The simple solution would be this. If you are jwalking and u get hit you are automatically at fault as a pedestrian. Even if a driver sees you and u still get mowed down its your fault. And be equally tough on drivers when its a cross walk.

That to me is the only way to get through to people's thick skulls. Pedestrians walk around arrogantly in this city because they have been given a license to do so. We have developed this culture through the idea that "pedestrians are always right even when they are wrong" and we are now reaping the rewards.

And the governments answer? Fines of course!!

When even the car hating Toronto Star is writing a front page article about Jwalkers, you know its bad!

But of course they advocate fines as well as if thats going to solve the issue!

quote:

Is jaywalking part of Toronto's culture?Published On Wed Jan 27 2010 Noor Javed Staff Reporter They are ruthless. They are fearless. They are breaking the law. With a phone in one hand, lunch in the other, they are also impressively persistent. Nothing, it seems, can thwart a Toronto jaywalker in progress: not the fear of being ticketed, not a horde of speeding cars nor even the daunting size of a truck passing within inches. At a jaywalking hot spot on Yonge St., just north of Front St., the Star watched people randomly cross the street during the busy lunch rush. In 45 minutes, more than 45 people illegally crossed the road � some of them even forcing a police car to stop to let them cross. The officer could have given the dozen pedestrians tickets or at least warnings. By law, failing to use a crosswalk or disobeying a "don't walk" signal is a traffic offence warranting a fine of $85. "Is that so? I had no idea," said Sima Persaud as she crossed in plain sight of the police car. The officer drove off and she went on her way. Clearly, many of us have been able to avoid reprimand, although Toronto police say they have dished out nearly 225 tickets to pedestrians so far this year. But on a street like Yonge, where would the police even begin? Would they ticket the two guys in the midst of a deep conversation while they jaywalked? Or the man eating his lunch and talking on the phone as he crossed the street? Or would they stop the group of jaywalkers, who clearly believe there is safety in large numbers? While the law might not be enough to persuade us to start using a crosswalk, the latest spate of pedestrian deaths mightbe. In the past month, 14 pedestrians across the GTA have been killed simply trying to cross a street. According to police and witnesses, many of them were jaywalking. On Monday night, a 38-year-old woman was killed crossing Davenport Rd. near Symington Ave. She was just a few short steps away from a large crosswalk. The unusually high number of pedestrian deaths has even politicians concerned. On Tuesday, Toronto Mayor David Miller pleaded with both pedestrians and drivers to be aware when on the road. "We need Torontonians to help out, too," he said. "Please pay attention." In Kitchener, Premier Dalton McGuinty dug even deeper: "There is a need to find out if there's something new that's happening that wasn't there before � if this is a coincidence or if this is the result of the advent of different attitudes or if this is the result of different ways we're conducting our lives." According to some sheepish pedestrians who were caught in the act Tuesday, jaywalking is just part of the culture of Toronto. Why walk a few metres and cross safely, when I can cross from here right now? "The pace of life in Toronto is so fast," said John Robertson. "You always feel like you are in a rush, and that you have to rush. Walking to a crosswalk doesn't fit into that." But many of the jaywalkers admitted that the recent tragic news had made them more cautious about crossing in the middle of a block. "I am a lot more careful," said Dale Chilvers. "I watch a lot more closely when I walk. I am too young to die." But does he ever plan to stop? "I don't know. I still do it. Everybody does."

quote:

THE FOUR SPECIES OF JAYWALKERS ROADRUNNERS: These speedsters dart across the street whenever there is even a small opening in traffic. They don't look up and make no eye contact with drivers. CHICKENS: They look both ways before crossing the road. They wait for a break in traffic and say a prayer as they cross the street in a run. They give a prayer of thanks when they reach the other side. OSTRICHES: These rule-breakers don't actually have their heads in the sane, but in their world traffic doesn't seem to exist. Often on the phone or in rapt conversation, they ignore the hazards as they cross the street, usually safely. PEACOCKS: These confident jaywalkers look both ways, just once, and calmly strut across the street when the coast is clear. No awkward running. No close calls.

I have no problem with "peacocks". Im a peacock all the time. Jwalking is fine as long as no cars are coming. The moment a car has to slow down or stop for you is when there is a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 i think that is the goal. Whats the answer today to stop jwalkers? is it an informational campaign? Is it a change in liability placement? Nope... fines.. and lots of them Why? Mo money mo money mo money! Every time there is a crisis the government is there to save us from ourselves with fines up the ass. Drive slower or we will fine u! cross here or we will fine you! The simple solution would be this. If you are jwalking and u get hit you are automatically at fault as a pedestrian. Even if a driver sees you and u still get mowed down its your fault. And be equally tough on drivers when its a cross walk. That to me is the only way to get through to people's thick skulls. Pedestrians walk around arrogantly in this city because they have been given a license to do so. We have developed this culture through the idea that "pedestrians are always right even when they are wrong" and we are now reaping the rewards. And the governments answer? Fines of course!!

But that still doesnt give the right for a driver to plow through a pedestrian if they are jay-walking in front of them.

quote:

Originally posted by love_child But that still doesnt give the right for a driver to plow through a pedestrian if they are jay-walking in front of them.

But that shouldn't make the driver at fault. If I am driving 40 down a the street and some guy just walks out between two parked cars on the side of the road and i just splatter his ass all over the pavement. Not my fault...I didn't do anything wrong.

Obviously not do it on purpose. I am sure that none of the accidents here was people purposely running over pedestrians.

quote:

Originally posted by love_child But that still doesnt give the right for a driver to plow through a pedestrian if they are jay-walking in front of them.

Obviously im not advocating running over pedestrians.

But right now toronto drivers usually slam on the brakes and wait for the pedestrian to cross.

In montreal by contrast, you run for your life because you know damn well they arent going to stop. Or at least thats how it used to be.

Me? Im not afraid to use my horn. It may not work for that instance, but im pretty sure if everyone honked these idiots there would be fewer of them in the future

Its classic Pavlov conditioning as far as im concerned

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Me? Im not afraid to use my horn. It may not work for that instance, but im pretty sure if everyone honked these idiots there would be fewer of them in the future Its classic Pavlov conditioning as far as im concerned

This I agree with. When ever I drive with my girlfriend, she is too timid honk the horn at idiots, drivers or pedestrians. So I make sure to lean over and press it. You have to make idiots feel like idiots.

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