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if it were up to obama, this country would be back on the right course. but that's a big if... everyone knows it's congress who decides if progress is going to occur and congress is a monumental clusterfuck of corporate puppets.

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Originally posted by EgosXII a lot of this is complete bullshit, or at least just propoganda. you're making the US sound like an underdog: the poor guys who don't have a treaty like the EU? aww and it's a roll they took after WWII simply because of paranoia and complete lies. The whole cold war was the US spreading their empirialist regime... I don't mean this in a kind of socialist way, but it literally was. The Russians were never a threat to the US on ANY level at all, yet the US fought them on every ground imaginable, the russians lost everything during the war. the fact that the US was the only state to come out off WWII richer than when it went in says enough, let alone all the people, money, infastructure and intelligence the russians didn't have, yet US claimed they did... it was one of the now standard irrational and terrorist moves that the US pulled on their own people... Look at all the shit that the citizens of the US had to deal with because of the fabricated threat that the russians claimed to have posed... also: how is the US not involved in NATO? they've used them as a puppet to justify their invasions on a number of occasions.. It is entirely the US' choice not to be a part of things similar to the EU. You think the arrogant, and all powerful Titan would EVER limit their power by getting involved in a transnational corporation?? LOL look at how they treat the UN... yeah they're very open to other states... also, don't scapegoat bush. He did a terrible job, but the international (and especially military) policy of the last handful of presidents has been ridiculous and led to a number of unecessarily and legally questionable (or downright illegal) wars. once again, this is the fault of the US, not just one individual, or figurehead and doesn't make the state and nation as a whole somehow guilt-free... the idea that they had to compete was created by them, and also is a joke since they have been the only ones with any significant power since the end of WWII... saying there was any competition to speak of in real threat terms is silly. The us SHOULD cut back. It's the bloated arrogance that has controlled the world since WWII, and caused numerous unecessary and terrible consequences. i think it's pretty ridiculous you make the US sound like the underdog, like they're fighting the good fight for the whole world, and are supremely democratic, and representative of the world... ridiculous. it's this mentality which will finally catch up to them in the next 50 years when we will see the fall of the great empire... i can already hear the 'barbarians' banging on the gates... too much talk, no reform. the world's in flux, the US is stagnant and horribly idealistic.

You're an idiot. Where did I describe the US as an underdog? I said they will be if they don't shape up and figure out a way to pay for the large military presence they have all over the globe when the rest of the place goes to shit.



And Kevin, I spend a lot of time with the Scandinavian TA's here. They don't consider the US to have an equal standard of living, they consider it to have a significantly lower standard of living. I am not talking 3rd world shit hole standard, but compared to their standard of living they would not trade it for that of the US, even if its cheaper.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby And Kevin, I spend a lot of time with the Scandinavian TA's here. They don't consider the US to have an equal standard of living, they consider it to have a significantly lower standard of living. I am not talking 3rd world shit hole standard, but compared to their standard of living they would not trade it for that of the US, even if its cheaper.

I'd have to agree on that one. I wouldn't mind if things were a little cheaper here, or if we had a few more things available to us, but I certainly wouldn't trade it in.

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Originally posted by The17sss Yeah... and what? You think they pay $2.40/gallon of gas there? The cost of living in Stockholm or Oslo or Helsinki is a lot higher than most places here.

As are wages. And employment rates.

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I'm no economist, but it's a stone cold fact that tax cuts spur economic activity, which lead to more money going to the government. Bush's tax cuts sent more tax dollars to the federal government than EVER. Unfortunately, much of that was grossly mismanaged.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=165
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-cut-mythology/
http://www.epi.org/economic_snapsho...shots_20070829/
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/supply-side_spin.html

From Factcheck:

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Sen. John McCain has said President Bush's tax cuts have increased federal revenues. But revenues would have been even higher without them.

Watched it live yesterday as well, (waiting for the semi's of the australian open, go Henin ). He certainly is a good speaker but I am affraid since it is an election year, not many of his proposals are going to be passed.
A shame for the US though, since they would have been the only Western country able to compete with China & India in the future.
On a sidenote, I do find it "funny" how America's public opinion is being influenced when it comes to public health insurance. A nation claiming to remain the number one country on so many domains, unable to provide for its occupants. I believe most Europeans don't really understand this last paradox and all the fuzz about Obama's health care plan.

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Originally posted by The17sss You need to spend some time in the real world man. Just sayin'

Actually, it is you and the rest of the reform opponents who needs to step out of their insulated upper middle class lifestyle and look around you. It is those like you who impede reform because they adopt a Darwinian attitude towards their fellow Americans, ignorance of the real world, or reform affects your way of life and your profit$.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov

You lost me when you quoted (former Enron advisor) Krugman... I have no idea why you hold him up on the higest of pedistals.

And on quoting McCain.

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Originally posted by Scottaculous Actually, it is you and the rest of the reform opponents who needs to step out of their insulated upper middle class lifestyle and look around you. It is those like you who impede reform because they adopt a Darwinian attitude towards their fellow Americans, ignorance of the real world, or reform affects your way of life and your profit$.

lol... you know nothing about me. I feel the way I do because of where I come from, and real world experience. Stop assuming I've had silver spoon up my ass my whole life and "can't relate to the downtrodden" or whatever crock of shit you've drawn up about me. My family has never had money, until about 5 years ago. My parents did just enough to get by until they were in their 50's, and years of hard work finally paid off. I busted my ass through school and worked hard to build a business from nothing with my dad. When you work hard for what you have, and succeed, it's pretty discouraging when your achievement is targeted to appease the growing masses who don't have the discipline to sacrifice, and expect the achievers to incrementally fund more and more of their entitlement dreams. It is you that has the ignorance; one day if you ever sign the front of the check and not the back, you'll understand.

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Originally posted by The17sss lol... you know nothing about me. I feel the way I do because of where I come from, and real world experience. Stop assuming I've had silver spoon up my ass my whole life and "can't relate to the downtrodden" or whatever crock of shit you've drawn up about me. My family has never had money, until about 5 years ago. My parents did just enough to get by until they were in their 50's, and years of hard work finally paid off. I busted my ass through school and worked hard to build a business from nothing with my dad. When you work hard for what you have, and succeed, it's pretty discouraging when your achievement is targeted to appease the growing masses who don't have the discipline to sacrifice, and expect the achievers to incrementally fund more and more of their entitlement dreams. It is you that has the ignorance; one day if you ever sign the front of the check and not the back, you'll understand.

You are right. The new rich are assholes.

At least in the Pacific Northwest, old money is liberal money. Even the new money here is far more liberal. We have one of the highest concentration of billionaires in the country and most of them are solidly blue.

Also you basically re-affirmed my post about the all for one attitude in this country and scotts claim that you take a Darwinian approach to your fellow man.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Also you basically re-affirmed my post about the all for one attitude in this country and scotts claim that you take a Darwinian approach to your fellow man.

But.... I don't have an "all for one" attitude. I want as many people as possible to share in the same type of success that I have, but I want them to earn it rather than recede into a culture of dependency. Not only is it rewarding, but you appreciate what you work for a lot more and it motivates you to better yourself. I'm not saying we shouldn't help those who truly need help... I'm saying that the people who are fully capable of taking on the personal responsibility to develop their potential should. The whole give a man a fish, teach a man to fish thing... you know?

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Originally posted by The17sss You lost me when you quoted (former Enron advisor) Krugman... I have no idea why you hold him up on the higest of pedistals. And on quoting McCain.

Um. He's a Nobel Laureate in Economics - I think he's qualified to speak on the subject. Also, three of the four links I posted are decidedly non-partisan.

Paul Krugman is the intellectual center of the Left on economics right now - if the Right can't have a serious debate with him than clearly you have nothing but platitudes.

It's not like he's Rush Limbaugh, for Christ sake - it's as if you cited Buckley and I said "oh, he's a conservative teehee he must be stupid teeheehee."

Jesus. No wonder our country is becoming intellectually bankrupt.

And wtf, I didn't quote John McCain - if you can't see that you're making the same claim that he was in that excerpt from Factcheck, then what are you doing talking about politics?

You guys are forgetting who you're arguing with...

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN quote: Originally posted by The17sss I'm sorry everyone, but other than saying Fox is "bottom of the barrel journalism", quantitatively and qualitatively worse than any of the alternatives, 95% racist viewership, etc.... those are all empty opinions totally void of factual basis. Lol. what�s hilarious is that�s exactly the problem with fox news.

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Originally posted by The17sss quote: Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Lol. what�s hilarious is that�s exactly the problem with all news. fixed

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Um. He's a Nobel Laureate in Economics - I think he's qualified to speak on the subject. Also, three of the four links I posted are decidedly non-partisan.

There are plenty of undeserving Nobel Laureates.... hint hint.

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Paul Krugman is the intellectual center of the Left on economics right now - if the Right can't have a serious debate with him than clearly you have nothing but platitudes.

I'm aware of this. And the Left is doing a bang up job on the economy. Thanks for proving my point. Why would the Right want to have serious debate with someone who wanted the $800 billion stimulus to be $2.4 trillion (and seeing what an obvious horriffic failure it has become, thank god his advice was shelved), and said the politicians who voted against cap and trade are committing treason against their country/planet? His economic policies stem from a radical Left wing ideology... no thanks.

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It's not like he's Rush Limbaugh, for Christ sake - it's as if you cited Buckley and I said "oh, he's a conservative teehee he must be stupid teeheehee." Jesus. No wonder our country is becoming intellectually bankrupt.

LOL! I can see how you're tone is becoming more defensive as of late. It's clear to me that you're upset that you fell for the soaring rhetoric of hope and change, and bought into the lofty expectations that are beginning to crash and burn; the great unifier has become the great polarizer and single handedly killing your party. Lashing out like a petulant child the same way your Dear Leader does now when people disagree is basic human nature I suppose; I would be embarrassed too if I proudly believed the hype only to see things getting worse 1 year later.

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And wtf, I didn't quote John McCain - if you can't see that you're making the same claim that he was in that excerpt from Factcheck, then what are you doing talking about politics?

I was obviously referring to the part of the quote where McCain said, ".... but tax revenue would have been more without Bush's tax cuts." McCain is a boob, and he also has no way of knowing if that statement is true. The fact remains: that tax cut sent more money to the treasury than ever before.

^^ 17sss, Obama is YOUR leader too, like it or not
the tone you use when you speak about Obama gives the impression that you are against EVERYTHING he has attempted/attempts/will attempt. its getting tiring...then again, that all you repubs do.
all talk no substance

meh imma go eat some wings..you all carry on

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Originally posted by DjWhooCares ^^ 17sss, Obama is YOUR leader too, like it or not the tone you use when you speak about Obama gives the impression that you are against EVERYTHING he has attempted/attempts/will attempt. its getting tiring...then again, that all you repubs do. all talk no substance meh imma go eat some wings..you all carry on

lol... I remember in a time, long long ago (2003) the wise Hillary Clinton said the following:

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I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say, 'We are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration!'"

Saying "no" to massive spending, increased deficits and debt, and out of control government expansion is actually a pretty good thing. But don't say there isn't any substance; alternative ideas, bills, and proposals are routinely rejected as fast at they are offered; team obama does not listen to anyone outside his inner sanctum.

I think the US needs a hobbesian upheavel... The social contract just isn't working out for them, time to overthrow and rebuild...

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Originally posted by The17sss Saying "no" to massive spending, increased deficits and debt, and out of control government expansion is actually a pretty good thing. But don't say there isn't any substance; alternative ideas, bills, and proposals are routinely rejected as fast at they are offered; team obama does not listen to anyone outside his inner sanctum.

Everyone says no to uncontrolled debt including Obama. "Team Obama" isn't the one who passes the laws either. Unfortunately, Republicans have no room to be talking, because under their watch, the debt and deficits became record breaking events. Only now that their opposition party is in power do they care.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Everyone says no to uncontrolled debt including Obama. "Team Obama" isn't the one who passes the laws either. Unfortunately, Republicans have no room to be talking, because under their watch, the debt and deficits became record breaking events. Only now that their opposition party is in power do they care.

This is a fair point, and I agree... because the last 2 years when the debt/deficit expansion began under Bush, I hated every minute of it. They were too pussy to stand for their principles, and they suffered mightely at the ballot box for it. And the same is happening again on the other side because it's even worse now than under Bush.

p.s.- I know this is you, Krypton

the17sss reminds me of a time when i was young and naive

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Originally posted by The17sss There are plenty of undeserving Nobel Laureates.... hint hint.

Raise your hand if you saw the Barack Obama card coming.

Clearly something called the "Peace Prize" and a Nobel Prize in Economics are based on the same criterion for scholarship in the social sciences.

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I'm aware of this. And the Left is doing a bang up job on the economy. Thanks for proving my point. Why would the Right want to have serious debate with someone who wanted the $800 billion stimulus to be $2.4 trillion (and seeing what an obvious horriffic failure it has become, thank god his advice was shelved), and said the politicians who voted against cap and trade are committing treason against their country/planet? His economic policies stem from a radical Left wing ideology... no thanks.

Again, if you can't debate the merits of arguments made by the opposition, why are you discussing politics?

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LOL! I can see how you're tone is becoming more defensive as of late. It's clear to me that you're upset that you fell for the soaring rhetoric of hope and change, and bought into the lofty expectations that are beginning to crash and burn; the great unifier has become the great polarizer and single handedly killing your party. Lashing out like a petulant child the same way your Dear Leader does now when people disagree is basic human nature I suppose; I would be embarrassed too if I proudly believed the hype only to see things getting worse 1 year later.

Defensive? I don't think so. Annoyed that you still don't get it? Yeah, probably. And angry at Obama for trying to placate those that still don't get it? Yeah, definitely.

I'm not embarrassed for supporting Barack Obama as candidate or President, and I think he had a very good first year. But he's squandering the momentum by courting moderate Republicans who clearly don't give two shits about health care. And yeah, that pisses me off. Olympia Snowe is now in control of whether health care becomes a reality. We've come this far, and we're going to be held captive by mythologies and a messaging meme on Massachusetts being a referendum on health care? It's absurd.

I'd love to see Obama use some of his political capital - which is considerable - to get the most progressive piece of legislation since 1964 passed through Congress. And then millions of people can purchase health insurance, coverage can be expanded, and government can go back to being ineffective in addressing some other burning issue.

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I was obviously referring to the part of the quote where McCain said, ".... but tax revenue would have been more without Bush's tax cuts." McCain is a boob, and he also has no way of knowing if that statement is true. The fact remains: that tax cut sent more money to the treasury than ever before.

McCain never said that - re-read the quote. McCain said that tax cuts sent more money to the treasury than ever before; Factcheck.org used economic analysis to show that revenue would have been even higher without the tax cuts. You're agreeing with the "boob."

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Originally posted by The17sss The fact remains: that tax cut sent more money to the treasury than ever before.

Yea, too bad we had those tax and spend democrats in the white house and congress to run up the largest increase in the national debt and create the largest national deficit ever recorded despite there being more money sent to the treasury than "ever before."






















Oh wait...

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Raise your hand if you saw the Barack Obama card coming. Clearly something called the "Peace Prize" and a Nobel Prize in Economics are based on the same criterion for scholarship in the social sciences.

Was talking about Al Gore actually. It would have been too obvious to mention Obama.

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Again, if you can't debate the merits of arguments made by the opposition, why are you discussing politics?

What's to debate? The Democrats have been in control of the economy and crafting budgets since 2006 when they took control of Congress. They are not doing anything to actually, really stimulate job growth; throwing out a few temporary peanuts every now and then doesn't count. Everything has got worse in the past year, and blaming Bush doesn't work anymore.

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Defensive? I don't think so. Annoyed that you still don't get it? Yeah, probably. And angry at Obama for trying to placate those that still don't get it? Yeah, definitely.

What don't I get? See... this is the type of elitism that is so damaging. The American people are just too dumb to know what's best for them, right? It takes real intellectuals like Obama (and you based on how I'm reading this) to show them the way. Because, if they could only grasp the concepts as you brianiacs do, they'd understand. Injecting money into the economy that has just been siphoned from the economy is not how to create jobs. Legislation's not the probelm, the slow mind of the citizen is. Right? What you don't get, because you clearly have no actual business experience, is that anyone who successfully starts a business, and creates jobs through rising profits, will quickly become a member of the evil $250K Club. Offering an $8000 tax break so a business owner will spend $40K to hire a new employee isn't how it works, chief. The financial speculation he rails against provides the investment capital for those small businesses and entrepreneurs. If no one has incentives to excel, and risk-taking becomes punished, small businesses won't appear and grow.

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I'm not embarrassed for supporting Barack Obama as candidate or President, and I think he had a very good first year.

Total disconnect from reality here. You are like the grad student who got an A on a term paper, but doesn't understand how it's real world application doesn't work... but still believes that if I just pay attention to your footnotes I'll get it. Obama has had a horrible first year. His approval has sunk to the lowest percentage of any president after the first year (now 46% in last week's CBS poll), and a staggering -22% differential in approve vs. disapprove from when he was elected. Every one of his major agenda items lacks a majority support. Did you not just see what happened in Massachusetts? New Jersey? Virginia?

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But he's squandering the momentum by courting moderate Republicans who clearly don't give two shits about health care. And yeah, that pisses me off. Olympia Snowe is now in control of whether health care becomes a reality. We've come this far, and we're going to be held captive by mythologies and a messaging meme on Massachusetts being a referendum on health care? It's absurd.

No, he's squandering momentum by co-opting legislation crafting to radicals Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. And, by forcing moderate members of his own party to vote with him when their constituents back home don't support the agenda items. It's funny to hear you say Republicans don't give 2 shits about health care; they have had several proposals rebuffed and not even considered, after Obama assured them he'd consider all ideas. People aren't even seeing the fucking bills to make a decision on, until Reid tosses them out there to be voted on at 2:00 a.m. on a Saturday. What YOU don't get is that everyone from Rebublicans, Independants, and Democrats want reform... but not the kind that is being presented. But you're whole premise is that what's being offered is the best (why?) and to disagree with that equates to "not giving 2 shits". Please.

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I'd love to see Obama use some of his political capital - which is considerable - to get the most progressive piece of legislation since 1964 passed through Congress. And then millions of people can purchase health insurance, coverage can be expanded, and government can go back to being ineffective in addressing some other burning issue.

Can purchase, or will be FORCED to purchase, otherwise face massive fines and/or jail time? Let's not mince words. Yeah his political capital is so considerable, he couldn't sway Massachusetts voters who are registered as Democrats 3.5 to 1 to keep a Democrat in Kennedy's seat. He's 0-4 now in using his political capital to sway (Mass., VA, NJ, Olympics). Governing against the will of the people will finish off the little political capital he has left. Dude, you are so entrenched in your Beltway cocoon it's scary.

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Originally posted by The17sss No, he's squandering momentum by co-opting legislation crafting to radicals Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. And, by forcing moderate members of his own party to vote with him when their constituents back home don't support the agenda items.

You seems to not understand the concept of Representative Democracy like we have here in this fine Republic, The United States of America.

These people were elected on the basis that they will make the right decision for the majority of the people that live in the districts they represent. Even if its a one person majority, they were still elected with the intention to legislate on the ideas and principals in which they ran on.

If thats not how the people like it, well then vote them out of office at the next election, but tough luck if you don't like it while they are there. Thats who the people of their district voted for and thats what they will get.

Welcome to America, if you don't like it you can get the fuck out.

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