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| Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Thanks for the tip. I'll try to remember it and not be so shy when I am with Paul at Rain on the 13th. No, not bragging. Just telling you the truth. |
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| I don't understand where you're coming from when it comes to gear bragging. I have nothing compared to most? |
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| What am I supposed to say about my music? It's good and you should really check it out! - That's what every rehtard says and nobody ever bothers to listen. Tell them somebody important is pounding the F out of it and they'll take notice. Simple as that. You can view me however you like, but, #1. you have no clue who I am or how I operate. Bragging about my gear? where? Bragging about oakey playing my tracks? Sorry if its the truth? I am not saying it in an arrogant manner. I said it because I want to hear what you have to offer since you seem to have a lot of bark and no bite. |
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| You know I was just like you when I started when I was younger and I wish I would have just done what I try to do now and that is keep my mouth shut, carry a big stick, and let your music and others do the talking for you. Unfortunately I had to come in here and set the record straight. |
and now for something completely different
The great comedic work of Webb and Mitchel
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| Originally posted by lenieNt Force Disagree.. Not anyone can master EDM.. Although it depends on what you mean by master.. To make EDM is one thing, to be exceptionally good at it is another thing (somebody like Leon Bolier). It's what I think about when you say master atleast. I mean if we're gonna say Michael Jackson didn't have natural talent.. It's just.. not worth discussing ofcourse.. Because he indeed did. It would be plain stupidity and blindness to discuss it. Ofcourse growing up as a member of the Jackson family helps.. But then again Jermaine should have been equally as good right? There is something called natural talent and a musical gene, whether one likes it or not.. There's done dozens of studies on it... And yes I believe in God given gifts.. Heh actually it makes me a little sick just discussing it so I don't know what I'm on about here.. I know it to be so true.. |
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| Making edm is simple.. just as playing a guitar is simple.. Making exceptional edm is not, just as being an exceptional guitar player is not. To be an outstanding transmitter of emotions through music demands both natural talent and lots of dedication. |
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| Mozart didn't have talent for making music at all? Neither did Vivaldi? Beethoven? Bach? Schubert? H�ndel? Ofcourse they did.. |
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| Einstein didn't have a natural gift in the art of thinking? Yes he did.. There's even been done studies of his well preserved brain lately where they amongst other things discovered unnaturally big neural connectors in central areas for processing of math and physics, and traces of synesthesic couplings. Couple that with an astonishing imagination and your set to become what I call an exceptional physicist. (note: exception(al)) |
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| Originally posted by Storyteller Good post, I disagree as well. My next door neighbour actually is a producer as well and gives recording/mixing classes on a school as well. He's does jingles, news-tunes all types of music but I manage to produce better house/trance music than he does. If dance music really was that easy for everyone, he would have outdone me in no-time. But he doesn't. He does in just about any other genre/field of expertise  |
if dance is so easy
can you help me out with this synth sound
synth sound
Would appreciate the help.
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| Originally posted by TranceLover007 I think that we are spending too much time arguing and dragging this issue for too long and not spending enough time do what we love to do - create/produce music. |
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| ether you are great/good and the mass will love you or you will do this only for you satisfaction (which is usually the case for some of us). |
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| Doesn�t really matter for me if I will be famous artist/producer or not (don't get me wrong - I will do whatever is necessary to be one), it's just that feeling of complete satisfaction, feeling to be in the right place, doing the thing I love to do - that's what I'm doing that for, nothing less, nothing more just that satisfaction. |
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| I know that all of us have different perspective/view on this, but as long as we are willing to listen, willing to learn and willing to work together, we WILL succeed. |
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| Originally posted by palm if edm is so easy to make why is it that it so few good edm tracks lately? |
Easiest doesnt necessarily mean easy, if u think EDM is hard try making a rock or pop record.. by yourself.
Foreword: I'm no ludite - I've been playing with computers since I was 14, back in DOS 4.0/Windows 2.0 days and "Aware of all your Internet traditions". I am fully self-taught and got my first IT job when I was 19 - so I embrace technology wherever it is relevant. What I'm about to say will certainly sound contradictory, but bear with it.
I embrace Ableton and have nothing short of disdain for Cubase (flame away). I hate samples, yet use sample-based Maschine. I appreciate having MIDI, sometimes "painting" difficult progressions by mouse, instead of playing them out. I couldn't tell B or E or F or G by hearing it and most certaly would have a hard time pointing it out on my keyboard.
...but I do have to agree with Wiley that this Catanya is certainly cringe-worthy. It's not that it's easy to make - IT MAKES EDM SEEM... PRIMITIVELY DISPOSABLY STUPIDLY RETARDEDLY POINTLESS. What's the point in coming up with your own ideas, when you can have someone else do the work for you. Where's the reward? It's like having a program that does all the writing for you, you just pick from a menu. It's pretty weak, IMO. I may not know shit about theory and having MIDI + transpose made my life easier but I still have to come up with ideas to feed to MIDI. This takes it steps beyond and I find it "unsportsmanlike".
Many hits have been made using loops, samples, even presets. It's a matter of personal pride. Chef equivalent - do you use canned vegetables in your dishes or do you cook your own? Both may produce a delicious dish - it's all a matter of how it was prepared and served. Most likely dish prepared with organic fresh vegetables will taste much better than generic canned ones, provided same chef used same steps and ingredients. Or one may not notice entirely.
What it comes down to is HOW DOES CHEF FEEL about it? Is there more pride in cooking from scratch or more pride in getting the dish done quickly?
I've been working on re-making a classic trance track and so far, have invested over 100 HOURS in first 64 bars or so. That's about 100 hours for about... a minute worth of track re-made. I have a GREAT DEAL OF PRIDE in what I accomplished because:
1. I am training my ear to distinguish various elements in a track and arrangement
2. I'm learning my tools intimately
3. I'm advancing my skills by careful examination of mastery involved
4. I learn to program my own drum loops, finding other interesting tricks in between
5. I can say that even though I copied someone else's work - there's more in that track of ME than of the original producer, thereby making the track more special TO ME.
I get a sense of satisfaction from reverse engineering a process, hacking - if you will. Someone else may get a kick out of finishing a product and getting it released. As long as it resonates with the masses - who cares. Both schools of thought are purely philosophical, provided both result in a quality product.
On the opposite side of that spectrum is what you will hear on today's radio. Please listen to radio for a day and note how many pop tracks today use Antares autotune? I'd guess over 60% - and nearly ALL OF THEM sound like SHIT. At some point, some tosser producer decided that having a no-tallent singer's voice corrected would be cool because technology was there (thanks Cher, you cracky ol' back of AIDS). You then have "I'm so two thousand and eight, you're so two thousand and late" - being drilled into your ears by Blackshit Piss every 15 minutes (or "I've got a feeling").
All we need now is Antares + Catanya + sample libraries and you're ready to rock the dance floors.
We had a similar debate here few weeks ago - about buying patch banks vs programming your own (hello Alonzo!) and I expressed same ludite view - programming your own sounds is more rewarding in a LONG RUN.
Do I use presets? yup. Samples? well, sort off - if you count sampled instruments in Maschine. I don't usually use loops, unless I de-construct it and make it myself.
Bottom line is - music is art and as long as it is executed in a way that evokes an emotion, it "passed the smell test". However, I am concerned that having so many crutches breeds a generation of "technicians" and "arrangers" not trully worthy of being called "producer" - as the only thing they produce is gluing the pieces together.
Just because you assembled an IKEA bookshelf, it doesn't make you a furniture maker. Now, if you take the same shelf, re-finish it, re-paint it, change it into something else that resembles nothing that you originally purchased - YOU'RE A DESIGNER, maybe an artisan, but still - NOT A FURNITURE MAKER. You may make something mind-blowingly amazing, but you're still not a furniture maker.
I guess that's the crux of the discussion... and full of contradiction, I know. But I'll leave it at that.
/rant
///tons of anologies
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 Progressive or traditional trance? I'd be happy to send you some tips on artists that are flying way under the radar |
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 Amen brother! You have your head in the right spot. Just continue to grind and you will make it because that mindset is the one of success as far as music goes. You may not turn into AvB but then again I sure as hell wouldn't even want to be lol. Success is individually measured. Fixed |
aNYthing you're spot on. In the end it only matters that we are doing what we do for the right reasons for ourselves. That's the point I was trying to get across to Steven. If someone wants to use Catanya as he alluded to and can make great work; fuck it! I want more meaning and satisfaction in my own productions than that but I can't force others into that same thought process.
At the end of the day we are providing to clients (the fans) and all of the other shit other than the end product is meaningless to them. So whatever gets you to make your best work and be satisfied with HOW you got there is acceptable to me.
There will always be people trying to make a quick buck by making something easier. That doesn't mean everyone has to use the product to it's full power.
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| Originally posted by palm something original please |
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 aNYthing you're spot on. In the end it only matters that we are doing what we do for the right reasons for ourselves. That's the point I was trying to get across to Steven. If someone wants to use Catanya as he alluded to and can make great work; fuck it! I want more meaning and satisfaction in my own productions than that but I can't force others into that same thought process. At the end of the day we are providing to clients (the fans) and all of the other shit other than the end product is meaningless to them. So whatever gets you to make your best work and be satisfied with HOW you got there is acceptable to me. There will always be people trying to make a quick buck by making something easier. That doesn't mean everyone has to use the product to it's full power. |
The problem here is that most people seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Catanya is and isn't and many of you seem to have it confused with a step sequencer. It's an arp - that's it. It won't write a song for you, or a chord progression, or a melody. It doesn't even create the "one-finger wonders" that so many step sequencers (e.g., Thesys) will, because it doesn't create sequences of intervals relative to a held note - it only plays back the notes (+/- octaves) that the user puts into it. All it does is take the notes in the chord that the user plays or pencils into the piano roll and plays a pattern out of it and sends that MIDI off to whatever synth(s) you want it to. It's no different than the arp that is built into 3/4 of the synths on the market, except that instead of having only the up, down, up/down, and random directions, it has unlimited variations, including 1200 categorized presets, all of which are freely editable. You only have control over which note is triggered within the chord(s) that the user must play or enter in the piano roll, the range of octaves, and the velocity. That's it.
In most respects, it's hardly any different than penciling the arp into a piano roll and, in fact, the beauty of Catanya is that it's much quicker than penciling the notes in because it uses a very intuitive grid from which you choose which notes from your chords (i.e., not intervals relative to the notes in your chord) and the timing/length at which they are trigger/held (i.e., almost like a piano roll). It makes it very easy to try out different arp patterns and quickly change them, and with the ability to save the pattern. Plus, you can record the MIDI notes into your piano roll for further editing.
As far as the presets go - they aren't going to create a song for you, but they also aren't limited to up, down, up/down, and random as most arps are. It's funny that I don't hear any of you bitching about how something as elemental as those basic and widely used patterns aren't destroying the fabric of EDM, but more advanced arp patterns in Catanya are? That's ridiculous, particularly in light of the fact that almost everybody here uses something as basic and uncreative as oom-pah bass/kick patterns and consider it standard fare. Perhaps the greatest irony is that some of you are bemoaning Catanya under false assumptions, while praising Thesys, which actually does allow the user to create "one-finger wonders" and comes with a ton of presets doing exactly that - you hold down a note and, bam, instant melody - all of the note intervals and modulations are already done for you. Of course, Thesys does much more than that and is a very powerful tool, but the point is, Catanya doesn't do what some of you are bitching about, while Thesys and most other step sequencers do.
I think many of you should actually sit down with the demos for a few hours and understand what each one does and how they work, and learn the difference between and arp and a step sequencer before carrying on about this anymore.
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| Originally posted by cryophonik The problem here is that most people seem to have no fundamental misunderstanding of what Catanya is and isn't and many of you seem to have it confused with a step sequencer. It's an arp - that's it. It won't write a song for you, or a chord progression, or a melody. It doesn't even create the "one-finger wonders" that so many step sequencers (e.g., Thesys) will, because it doesn't create sequences of intervals relative to a held note - it only plays back the notes (+/- octaves) that the user puts into it. All it does is take the notes in the chord that the user plays or pencils into the piano roll and plays a pattern out of it and sends that MIDI off to whatever synth(s) you want it to. It's no different than the arp that is built into 3/4 of the synths on the market, except that instead of having only the up, down, up/down, and random directions, it has unlimited variations, including 1200 categorized presets, all of which are freely editable. You only have control over which note is triggered within the chord(s) that the user must play or enter in the piano roll, the range of octaves, and the velocity. That's it. In most respects, it's hardly any different than penciling the arp into a piano roll and, in fact, the beauty of Catanya is that it's much quicker than penciling the notes in because it uses a very intuitive grid from which you choose which notes from your chords (i.e., not intervals relative to the notes in your chord) and the timing/length at which they are trigger/held (i.e., almost like a piano roll). It makes it very easy to try out different arp patterns and quickly change them, and with the ability to save the pattern. Plus, you can record the MIDI notes into your piano roll for further editing. As far as the presets go - they aren't going to create a song for you, but they also aren't limited to up, down, up/down, and random as most arps are. It's funny that I don't hear any of you bitching about how something as elemental as those basic and widely used patterns aren't destroying the fabric of EDM, but more advanced arp patterns in Catanya are? That's ridiculous, particularly in light of the fact that almost everybody here uses something as basic and uncreative as oom-pah bass/kick patterns and consider it standard fare. Perhaps the greatest irony is that some of you are bemoaning Catanya under false assumptions, while praising Thesys, which actually does allow the user to create "one-finger wonders" and comes with a ton of presets doing exactly that - you hold down a note and, bam, instant melody - all of the note intervals and modulations are already done for you. Of course, Thesys does much more than that and is a very powerful tool, but the point is, Catanya doesn't do what some of you are bitching about, while Thesys and most other step sequencers do. I think many of you should actually sit down with the demos for a few hours and understand what each one does and how they work, and learn the difference between and arp and a step sequencer before carrying on about this anymore. |
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 My explanation for that is that he has no motivation to make better house/trance than you. Knowing myself when I am unmotivated I couldn't produce the theme to sesame street but when I am motivated I have made some great stuff. The mind is a fragile tool and the most important thing in life as a producer is knowing how to manipulate it to do what you want. |
i find some EDM just as impressive as some classical and rock/pop. They are very different and require different skills. There isn't anything in classical you could show me that I wouldn't know how to do or analyze. There is alot of EDM stuff that puzzles me.
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 That's untrue. EDM is very simple. All you need is to be studious, determined and put in the time. There are no shortcuts it's all about putting in the time. I would agree with you on the Bolier reference. But if you have a working knowledge of theory then you'd know that his tracks are not difficult to make. How do you think he puts out 40-50 a year? |
If its easy why aren't you putting out 40-50 tracks a year at the same standard? Its a simple question with a simple equation Its not 40-50 btw.. its around 10 a year. Leon is gifted, its simple to hear if you have an ear Theres good and bad pieces of music within every genre. I know you know that aswell, but its a fact you have to keep in mind when generalizing a genre for being "easier to make," or what could be implied as being "lesser." Also theres lots more trash inside EDM because it's so easy to start playing around with. We all know that, and it facilitates the prejudice and generalization factor of the genre a whole lot.
not to side track your arguments but all those tracks sound like derivative shit that was done better 10 years ago.
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| Originally posted by RichieV not to side track your arguments but all those tracks sound like derivative shit that was done better 10 years ago. |
it isn't hard when all the ideas can be grasped in 8 bars.
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| Originally posted by lenieNt Force I don't think Leons tracks are easy to make mate. Leon is a true master of his craft If its easy why aren't you putting out 40-50 tracks a year at the same standard? Its a simple question with a simple equation Its not 40-50 btw.. its around 10 a year. Leon is gifted, its simple to hear if you have an ear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_7dR0RuMCg I had a very long reply written, I listened to this and it told me its not worth it, neither is it worth it telling its not worth it, so again I see myself ashamed at what Im doing, but ok.. Other points you make are good, I just disagree that its simple art, because it all depends on what your reference tracks are within the genre Theres good and bad pieces of music within every genre. I know you know that aswell, but its a fact you have to keep in mind when generalizing a genre for being "easier to make," or what could be implied as being "lesser." Also theres lots more trash inside EDM because it's so easy to start playing around with. We all know that, and it facilitates the prejudice and generalization factor of the genre a whole lot.Some things to think about : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS0Oo19ijz0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Y2r-o5mQ0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FwbsSdWh-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A54ARXaHLoo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CC0pgmqEqQ I don't think it's all theory and simple art, I think it is a bit of self-expression and a heart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c52KR9e_wU Listen man.. it's so much emotion I have trouble standing on my feet when I listen to this, as his emotions rushes from him, through the music into me! Thats what it's all about. It's so majestetic, just so majestetic and powerful it overflows, can't you hear it.. it is a godsend. One should live in awe of a man like Leon, not call his art simple. I cry so easily to this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vloSmBrOfys Tears flowing down my chin.. This doesn't come from theory alone. For the record, Im not trying to give you bad thoughts.. Cause I believe you create great music, but I don't believe its all theory. I believe you have some sort of talent for expressing yourself through music, whether you know it or not, else you wouldn't be here. Not everyone has that. People are tone-deaf man. People have no sense of rhythm at all. Great tracks mate but how in the world can you forget Ocean Drive Boulevard??? Imo not only is it his best track he has ever made but one of the all time trance classics! One of the best breakdowns I've ever heard. Leon is so great because of one thing. He understands and has mastered tension. That is the key to this genre. There are other things that are extremely important but tension is what makes people see tracks as special. ------------------------------ Anyway folks, I find myself spending too much time on here so this will be the last time you see me for I don't know how long.. Much love and respect, and I wish you all good fortune and best of luck with music and life in general from now on forward! Bye guys.. I have really loved the forum and it has helped me in so many ways, from the time I started browsing it some 5 years ago.. but it takes up too much of my time as it is now, so I'll have to say goodbye! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh9SN9Rm16M |
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| Originally posted by RichieV it isn't hard when all the ideas can be grasped in 8 bars. |
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| Originally posted by RichieV not to side track your arguments but all those tracks sound like derivative shit that was done better 10 years ago. |
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| Originally posted by mfitterer1 It used to be my primary email but as anyone who has used hotmail knows it only takes time before it becomes unusable. |
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