case closed! Posted by hardcore trancer on Mar-26-2010 15:55:
quote:
Originally posted by Satchel
I agree with much of what Diginut has said. People often blindly accuse Israel of their actions without thought or regard to what is actually going on there. Visit the region and you may have a very different view of things. Israel is building these new settlement in Jerusalem, the Capitol of Israel. Jerusalem will never be given up in any peace agreement. The government is building to accommodate growth in an area that is disputed but will NEVER be given up. They are acting as a responsible municipal government to accommodate the housing needs of the city. If it was a further expansion into the West Bank than I could see it being more of an issue. Anti-Israel lobbyists are trying to make a big deal over nothing.
All this talk about the oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis is over-hyped. The Israeli Defense Forces take extreme cautions to try and minimize civilian casualties. They warn building days in advance of bombings. They drop pamphlets informing civilians of future military actions. Do you think that the US Forces warned civilians in Iraq before entering a town? Unlikely. If you talk to Israelis, you will know that they want peace badly but not in lieu of their safety.
Every country has a right to defend themselves. What do you think would happen if San Diego was bombed by Mexican Militants and their citizens were constantly under a barrage of rockets. There would be a response, and I guarantee it would make Israel's actions seem minuscule. I am just saying that there is blind support for the Palestinians and bias against Israel generated by the media. Look into how other Arab nations and Plasetinian Leaders have treated the Palestinian People in the past and present. It may shock you. Start with Black September. Then check out how Yasser Arafat's wife is living off of all the money he stole from his people.
�We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us� Golda Meir, ex-Israeli PM
hmm where should I even begin with this guy??Posted by Abercrombie on Mar-26-2010 18:01:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
hmm where should I even begin with this guy??
lol, easy on the n00b Posted by Spam on Mar-26-2010 19:31:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
hmm where should I even begin with this guy??
You should bomb his house.
Posted by hardcore trancer on Mar-26-2010 21:13:
quote:
Originally posted by Spam
You should bomb his house.
na I'll leave that to you.
Posted by Angx on Mar-26-2010 21:32:
My question is for the U.N. WHY THE FUUUCK does Israel have Nukes???? Why hasn't any one stepped in to see what they are hiding??
As for the USA its about time they grew a pair of balls. Considering that the Israelies have most of the polliticians in their pocket how far will Obama get?
Posted by risklevel on Mar-26-2010 21:46:
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Figures don't lie (although these ones are wrong), but liars can figure.
First of all, the actual number of terrorist-related deaths in Israel during the past 10 years is about 1200, with about 2/3 of those being civilians, and another 8000 wounded. (Source - and please don't be a loser and scream "bias", there's a detailed account of every incident that can be cross-checked with media sources)
Second, everyone in Palestine is a "civilian" - that is the problem. There is no Palestinian military or security force. Terrorists are lumped into the same category as innocent bystanders, they wear civilian clothes and even hide in densely-populated civilian locations while they fire rockets. So it should come as no surprise that there are a high number of "civilian" deaths in Palestine.
Third, the fact that the Israeli death count is lower than the Palestinian death count is not for lack of trying on the part of Palestinians; the fact that they are less effective at actually killing their targets (Israelis in the border towns are never more than 5 minutes away from a bomb shelter) does not make them any less responsible.
So thank you for the incorrect and ultimately very uninteresting second-hand statistic.
First of all it is quite remarkable how you expect an offcial website of the Israeli foreign ministry to be 'unbiased'. I mean this is the same foreign ministry that has not accepted the killing of a Hamas member Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai. I guess you will also argue that it was a preemptive strike and was necessary. What is more unbelievable is that although Mossad broke a hundred laws the opposition leader Tzipi Livni applauded the murder. The hypocrisy of it all is stunning. How do you think people will sympathise with Israeili policies or Netanyahu when they use fake foreign passports for murder?
Regarding the current settlement issue. It is not only refreshing but actually extremely encouraging to see that finally one of the US regimes has enough courage to stand upto Israel. Without a two state solution there will be no peace. Israel has to realise that, instead of bulldozing Palestinian homes and building new Jewsih settlements. By continuing to build new settlements Israel has shown a very negative aspect of it's commitment to peace. Obama and the US has not taken this issue lightly and finally Israel is feeling the pressure of it's actions.
You might be current on Israeli politics but if you think that America will not improve its relations with Iran or the Arab world by taking a stand against Israel you are sadly mistaken. You then do not know why America is looked upon so negatively in the entire Muslim world.
In the end you are right, Israel will not halt the building of its new settlements but they will lose their greatest support, the US.
Without a two state solution there will be no peacePosted by Yohan on Mar-26-2010 23:03:
quote:
Originally posted by risklevel
First of all it is quite remarkable how you expect an offcial website of the Israeli foreign ministry to be 'unbiased'. I mean this is the same foreign ministry that has not accepted the killing of a Hamas member Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai. I guess you will also argue that it was a preemptive strike and was necessary. What is more unbelievable is that although Mossad broke a hundred laws the opposition leader Tzipi Livni applauded the murder. The hypocrisy of it all is stunning. How do you think people will sympathise with Israeili policies or Netanyahu when they use fake foreign passports for murder?
Regarding the current settlement issue. It is not only refreshing but actually extremely encouraging to see that finally one of the US regimes has enough courage to stand upto Israel. Without a two state solution there will be no peace. Israel has to realise that, instead of bulldozing Palestinian homes and building new Jewsih settlements. By continuing to build new settlements Israel has shown a very negative aspect of it's commitment to peace. Obama and the US has not taken this issue lightly and finally Israel is feeling the pressure of it's actions.
You might be current on Israeli politics but if you think that America will not improve its relations with Iran or the Arab world by taking a stand against Israel you are sadly mistaken. You then do not know why America is looked upon so negatively in the entire Muslim world.
In the end you are right, Israel will not halt the building of its new settlements but they will lose their greatest support, the US.
Without a two state solution there will be no peace
you missed the part about US is pissed at Israel only because of timing of the new Jerusalem settlements announcement...
Posted by hardcore trancer on Mar-26-2010 23:09:
Funny how Israel always bitch and moans why everyone hates them etc etc. Perhaps they should have a look at their own actions from the last 10-15 years.
It will be interesting to see how things will play out with this so called new U.S. pressure. Either they gonna bomb the shit out of Gaza yet again or they'll continue building more and more houses.
Posted by Yohan on Mar-26-2010 23:12:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Funny how Israel always bitch and moans why everyone hates them etc etc. Perhaps they should have a look at their own actions from the last 10-15 years.
It will be interesting to see how things will play out with this so called new U.S. pressure. Either they gonna bomb the shit out of Gaza yet again or they'll continue building more and more houses.
the joos dont care what the rest of the world thinks of them... until someone actually does something that matters (ie sanctions and whatnot)
deeds, not words
Posted by DigiNut on Mar-27-2010 04:37:
quote:
Originally posted by risklevel
First of all it is quite remarkable how you expect an offcial website of the Israeli foreign ministry to be 'unbiased'.
Note to LightsOut: Hopefully, now you understand what I was talking about, and why I wrote what I did.
To "risklevel":
Did I say it was unbiased? No.
Did I say that it was accurate, that it has a complete annotated list of incidents to support its reported static, and that all of these are easy to fact-check individually? Yes.
Did you have anything at all to say about that? No.
Did you present any facts or arguments relevant to the topic? No.
Empty rhetoric and red herrings. Surprise, surprise.
Posted by soupastah on Mar-27-2010 04:59:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Funny how Israel always bitch and moans why everyone hates them etc etc.
I've known a few Isrealis, and I've never known one of them to bitch about what anyone thinks. They don't give a fuck. Personally i think it's a negative not a positive, but i find it amusing how earlier you were making them out to be bullys and then a couple comments later they're moaners.
I don't follow any of this but isn't it funny that the political landscape in Israel went from that woman who wanted to remove all jewish settlements by force nearly being elected to a right wing netanyahu govt in a heartbeat? I mean didn't she take the popular vote in the last elections? wow
Posted by soupastah on Mar-27-2010 04:59:
quote:
Originally posted by Yohan
the joos dont care what the rest of the world thinks of them...
what he said
Posted by risklevel on Mar-27-2010 08:09:
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Note to LightsOut: Hopefully, now you understand what I was talking about, and why I wrote what I did.
To "risklevel":
Did I say it was unbiased? No.
Did I say that it was accurate, that it has a complete annotated list of incidents to support its reported static, and that all of these are easy to fact-check individually? Yes.
Did you have anything at all to say about that? No.
Did you present any facts or arguments relevant to the topic? No.
Empty rhetoric and red herrings. Surprise, surprise.
wow, you really miss the point dont you. how am i or anyone supposed to fact-check these events individually? by typing it on google? information checking is not that simple. The information could very well be tweaked. The point i was trying to make is that by defending Israel as to how many people have been killed you cannot suggest it is acceptable for them to carry out all the injustice on the Palestinian people. Either you have tunnel vision or you might just be immune to all the condemnations from the UN and other European countries. Its almost as if you think that killing a Palestinian civilian is the right of Israel. Israel was accused of crimes against humanity last year in the siege of Gaza by the UN. The IDF used white phosphorous on civilians, I mean chemical weapons? Your argument about the problem of all Palestinians being civilians is ridiculous. The IDF bombed schools as well, are you going to say they did not know where the schools were, i hope you are not so naive.
About relevant argument, i am not in your classroom to be told what i can argue on. I was making a more general argument of achieving peace through a two state solution by using the point you had made. With each day the world sees how Israelis are treating the Palestininans. Just to see what you think on the issue you must be aware of the Jenin camp in 2002. I am trying to find the video where Terje Roed-Larsen (UN inspection team) says very emotionally that the camp was "horrific beyond belief" and that it was "morally repugnant" that Israel had not allowed emergency workers into the camp for 11 days. Justify that. I also want to ask you, do you want Palestinians to have a separate homeland or do you think that Israel has the moral right to deny them their basic human right?
Posted by LightsOut on Mar-27-2010 15:01:
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Note to LightsOut: Hopefully, now you understand what I was talking about, and why I wrote what I did.
Yeah fair enough, politics always seem to incite quite the little heated debates on this board, no hard feelings Posted by jester on Mar-27-2010 15:41:
quote:
Originally posted by Angx
My question is for the U.N. WHY THE FUUUCK does Israel have Nukes???? Why hasn't any one stepped in to see what they are hiding??
As for the USA its about time they grew a pair of balls. Considering that the Israelies have most of the polliticians in their pocket how far will Obama get?
What nukes? Shit where is Iraq's WMD? Fuck its like asking Where is Waldo? At least with Where is Waldo, you can find him
Obama will not get far. Honestly no President will ever get far. They would need some KKK member to gain power, but that will never happen. If that happened a civil war would most likely break out seconds later.
The only thing Israel is hiding is probably the remains of Jesus lol
Plus if Israel did have "nukes" they can never use them. It is a means of striking fear in others (its a form of defense).
Honestly if any country uses a nuclear weapon in this day in age, they do not care for the safety of their citizens.
Plus if any country used a nuclear weapon on Israel. Thats a big problem, its in acting another holocaust and that country is trying to destroy thousands of years of history / religion. Your not just attacking Judaism, your going after Christianity, Islam and Bahai faith.
Posted by DigiNut on Mar-27-2010 15:53:
quote:
Originally posted by risklevel
wow, you really miss the point dont you. how am i or anyone supposed to fact-check these events individually? by typing it on google? information checking is not that simple.
So even though every single item on that page is carefully sourced, you hand-wave it away on the grounds that it is not simple to check.
You summarily dismiss thousands of verifiable facts in favour of your own vague, unverifiable, hostile opinion.
Middle-Eastern politics at its finest, folks. I don't know fuck-all about what's really going on down there and I'm not really interested in learning, but I'm pissed off and not about to let anyone forget it!
quote:
Just to see what you think on the issue you must be aware of the Jenin camp in 2002.
You mean the so-called "massacre" that the media stringers reported on, the tempest-in-a-teapot that opened a significant portion of the western world's eyes to "Pallywood" and proved conclusively that neither the U.N. nor the mass media could be trusted to conduct themselves responsibly in the Middle East?
Yeah, I'm aware of it.
Posted by risklevel on Mar-27-2010 21:03:
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
So even though every single item on that page is carefully sourced, you hand-wave it away on the grounds that it is not simple to check.
You summarily dismiss thousands of verifiable facts in favour of your own vague, unverifiable, hostile opinion.
Middle-Eastern politics at its finest, folks. I don't know fuck-all about what's really going on down there and I'm not really interested in learning, but I'm pissed off and not about to let anyone forget it!
You mean the so-called "massacre" that the media stringers reported on, the tempest-in-a-teapot that opened a significant portion of the western world's eyes to "Pallywood" and proved conclusively that neither the U.N. nor the mass media could be trusted to conduct themselves responsibly in the Middle East?
Yeah, I'm aware of it.
Vague? I dont think i can be any clearer or coherent. Verifiable? Am i only supposed to give you sources from the Israeli Defense ministry or Israel media? It seems likely that these are the only ones you trust because the UN and the world media must be out to get Israel right? Obviously in your eyes Israel can do no wrong, how could they, as long as Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel Israel has the right to indiscriminately kill civilians at will. Theyr so efficient at it too, i must admit.
you want verifiable source? Let me give you the latest idea of how Israel conducts itself. This is regarding the siege of Gaza. The Jewish South African former Supreme court judge Richard Goldstone (head of fact finding mission) said Israel should face charges against crime of humanity. The report can be found here report ..
Maybe if you had bothered to read such reports you wouldnt have such a biased view and it is very clear to me that you dont know much about Israeli conduct. Refer to point number 517 and 518. The director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA says 'There is nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized'. Israel had managed to terrorize the Palestinian people by shutting their water supply, denying any emergency help and indiscriminate bombing. These findings are coherent in the report and consistently mentioned. definitely go over CHAPTER 10 AND CHAPTER 11 regarding the deliberate and targeted killings of civilians and the use of certain weapons (such as the white phosphorous). Now obviously according to you the UN report cant be trusted because they dont know how to conduct themselves in Middle Eastern politics, you really should be given a medal for ignorance.
Another report http://www.alhaq.org/pdfs/Legal_Bri...st_Lead_Jan.pdf .
Hopefully you are pissed off because the world is not blind anymore. One day Israel will be accountable for their actions and one thing is clear with their recent attitude they do not want peace.
Posted by Moral Hazard on Mar-29-2010 11:33:
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Plus if Israel did have "nukes" they can never use them. It is a means of striking fear in others (its a form of defense).
IF? Just because Israel has never declared they have nukes doesn't mean they don't. In fact, Israel is very clear (has been since the late 60's) that they would not be the first state to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the region.... they (by they I mean Yitzhak Rabin then ambasador to the US) defined "introduce" as weapons "would not be tested and declared, whereas simply possessing them did not constitute introducing them." Honestly, this is a pretty clear declaration that they have them but they will not confirm it. Additionally, your assertion that nuclear weapons are a defense is quite right; however, that is exactly how they are "used" to prevent invasion.
Posted by gummybear on Mar-29-2010 14:49:
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
So even though every single item on that page is carefully sourced, you hand-wave it away on the grounds that it is not simple to check.
You summarily dismiss thousands of verifiable facts in favour of your own vague, unverifiable, hostile opinion.
Middle-Eastern politics at its finest, folks. I don't know fuck-all about what's really going on down there and I'm not really interested in learning, but I'm pissed off and not about to let anyone forget it!
You mean the so-called "massacre" that the media stringers reported on, the tempest-in-a-teapot that opened a significant portion of the western world's eyes to "Pallywood" and proved conclusively that neither the U.N. nor the mass media could be trusted to conduct themselves responsibly in the Middle East?
Yeah, I'm aware of it.
You're so biased on this issue that I can't even fucking read your opinions. It is impossible to have a healthy debate with you about this topic because you will NEVER accept that you are being driven by your allegiance to one side. It's so #$^%$*&^%*(%^ annoying especially since you come off as such an insulting pseudo intellectual elitist.
Props to the actual intellects in this thread who actually use their brains and examine situations from a realist and objective point of view, rather than spewing a bunch of one sided shit wrapped up in pretty prose. No offense Digi, but you to me are not a progressive thinker.
Anybody who has a half a fuckin brain and looks at thing objectively, can see that what is going on in that region is and has been utterly disgusting but things will never change. It's not about right and wrong. It's about allegiances, money, power, world domination and a bunch of other messed up shit that rules this world. That sad part is that human lives mean shit.
The facts are the facts. Remove your bias, hate or whatever is clouding your judgement and then, you will see the situation for what it is.
ps. moving sucks. I hate everyone. Posted by Xavier Moriarty on Mar-29-2010 16:06:
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Plus if any country used a nuclear weapon on Israel. Thats a big problem, its in acting another holocaust and that country is trying to destroy thousands of years of history / religion.
are you trying to say that because they indured holocaust they should be allowed to do whatever they want to??
and fyi, around 25 millions russians died in ww2, 2/3 of that was civilian deaths
Posted by hardcore trancer on Mar-29-2010 17:35:
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
are you trying to say that because they indured holocaust they should be allowed to do whatever they want to??
Thats also my question too. Just because they indured holocaust it doesnt give them rights to kill as many as they can. shouldnt they be more compassionate towards other humans?Posted by jad on Apr-02-2010 21:09:
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Thanks for the heads up on that.
You're welcome.. You seem to have a pretty comprehensive understanding of this situation. I agree with with most of what you've said except for when you stated that settlements such as this do not violate the Geneva Convention. I don't want to get off topic, even though Israel's occupation of Palestinian land breaches countless international laws on many levels.. so I'm just going to stick to the issue at hand. Israel extending its jurisdiction into Palestinian affairs in annexed East Jerusalem is the root of the Silwan problem. This extension of jurisdiction clearly violates the Fourth Geneva Convention, which condemns an occupying power from extending its dominion to an occupied power.
Israel legitimizes the demolition of the Arab homes in Silwan by deeming the houses as illegal since their owners have not obtained permits. Annually, Israel only issues few hundred residential permits to the Palestinians, while its construction firms are given the right to go on and build 1,600 new homes on stolen land. Palestinians are only allowed to residentially develop 11-12% of East Jerusalem.. that's if they're lucky enough to receive a residential permit. Out of desperation, Palestinians go on to build new homes or extend existing ones.. One can say that they need to expand their residential areas at the same rate of their population growth? Israeli settlement development in the West Bank, which was meant to be frozen, still expanded at a rate that was proportional to Israel's natural growth rate (supposedly). Any houses developed without these permits, are demolished or evacuated.. Eventually the land itself or the vacant house will be illegally occupied by Israeli settlers. Both options are clear examples of theft. Now when you compare these statistics to the demographics of the area, the extent of how badly the Israeli authorities treat most Jerusalem's original inhabitants (Palestinians) can be shown.
It's great to see that many TAs seem to have a firm understanding of the reality of Israeli Apartheid. Much respect to you.
As for Diginut.. it saddens me to see somebody so intoxicated by bias that it hinders his / her ability to have a constructive debate.. This approach doesn't just apply to this topic.. being this stubborn will definitely limit you in many other aspects of life.. It's not good for you buddy. Keep your ears and eyes open or you might just end up burying yourself in a hole of denial. On the other hand, as a Palestinian I can also see this a good thing. Attitudes such as Diginut's allow for the true colors of Zionism to shine through.. Ignorant people that have been systematically socialized by certain ideals endorsed by the Zionist regime cause others to realize how far fetched and incorrect these ideals are. So thank you.. for one day your words and actions will help in justly bringing Israel down to its knees in the eyes of the international community.
On a lighter note.. Imo the most effective method of weakening the Israel is through the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS). It's based on a similar movement which brought an end to South African Apartheid. Anybody can join this movement.. Your contribution boils down to the day-to-day decisions that you make, which can either benefit or weaken Israel. These decisions include: 1. cultural/ academic/ athletic/ economic boycott; 2. ending investments in firms operating in Israel and firms that support Israel; and sanctioning Israeli military/ diplomatic/ economic global links. Please check out the following websites if this interests you:
- http://www.bdsmovement.net/
- http://www.nion.ca/
- http://www.caiaweb.org/
Posted by jad on Apr-02-2010 22:05:
A little bit of topic.. but this song reminds me of Palestine.. I listened to it countless times when I was there in December.. Probably one of the best tracks of 2009. Enjoy.
