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-- My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)
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Nah I actually agree for the most of it.

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Originally posted by Stealth Good point. How do labels know if Beatport(for example) is telling them the truth about how many times a certain song was purchased? If Beatport sends a check to a label for 50 tracks allegedly purchased how do we know it wasn't really 500? Is there any way for labels to audit these Digital Distributors/Retailers? For all we know producing EDM could be WAAAY more lucrative than we think...

I'm going to be trusting here, and assume Beatport and/or the distributors are honest, because they can be audited at any time. The skeptical part of me thinks something is up. I'm starting to think I sell more than is reported. If the distributors are dishonest, we are all screwed. Hang it up. The music Biz is notorious for screwing it's talent, as far back as the 1950's, so it would be nothing new.

I have a question, bout beatport, where it lists "customers that bought this, also bought this." How much of that is an indication of sales numbers? My EP releases all have the max 24 releases in that section. It could be that someone bought my EP and 20 other songs all in one whack, or if could be that I sold 24+

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Originally posted by zodiac9 I'm going to be trusting here, and assume Beatport and/or the distributors are honest, because they can be audited at any time.

really? I never realized labels could actually audit Beatport... do you or anyone else that has label experience know how that works?

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Originally posted by Stealth really? I never realized labels could actually audit Beatport... do you or anyone else that has label experience know how that works?

Beatport is a Limited Liability Corporation, based in the United States and also subject to sales tax codes for Colorado and Denver - the town where it's based. Being that the majority of Beatport's business has nexus outside of Denver, they need to be fairly thorough about how they report sales to the state of Colorado and Denver county which has its own sales tax (2.5-2.9%).

In addition to this they also have yearly filings with the IRS, in which they must report all revenue and have an accurate accounting for all of their sales. The filing must include all sale transactions made through Beatport's payment gateways.

In order for Beatport to conduct business off the books, they would have to deceive three different entities. In addition to this, Beatport must also file yearly 1099s to its non-incorporated vendors who are paid over $650 per year and also provide each vendor with an accurate accounting of what it has paid during each period (month) of the fiscal year.

So suspicion that Beatport is not reporting sales accurately has a very nominal chance of actually being warranted.

Thanks Eddie. Great post. I forgot about the IRS/tax angle...

Doesn't change the fact that their standards are negligible in other areas.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 This does not answer the question, nor does it explain why 'saturation' in EDM industry affects digital sales to the amount you think it does.

It doesn't affect "digital sales" in general, it affects sales for specific labels/artists/tracks.

Honestly, this is Econ 101, I don't see what's so hard to understand. Demand is going up, yes; I made that exact same point and even linked to a chart showing the exponential growth in online music sales. But supply is expanding even faster now that every bedroom producer is pumping out copycat tracks and every mickey mouse label is putting them up on Beatport. When supply grows faster than demand, the average revenue for suppliers decreases, even if the total revenue for the entire industry continues to rise.

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And basically you're saying people who typically buy EDM music online, buy it randomly. Music is not a random choice, its a conscious choice.

Obviously they listen to it first, same as they used to do in the record stores. But if you think that Bedroom DJ #5991 really gives a crap which label the track is from, you're sorely mistaken. Whatever's in the top 100 or in their preferred sub-sub-sub-genre of epic fluffy floaty uplifting megatrance, that's what they're buying.

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And nope no no...people are fleeting from other genres towards EDM, step outside.

Well, you've convinced me.

Actually I never said that fewer people were listening to "EDM" - just that the "scene" is shrinking because the umbrella genre is becoming more diverse and expanding into other areas (pop, rock, etc.) Again, you have no sense of scale here; demand is bigger but it's spread very thin with all of the different splinter groups.

What's amazing to me is that you continue to argue when we are basically saying the same thing - it's not the fault of the listeners, nor is it the fault of the responsible labels, the problem is that there are 50,000 mickey mouse labels out there who have no regard for quality but are saturating the market with their crap (or diluting, depending on your point of view).

Is this not the very same point that you are trying to make? The only difference seems to be that I'm making an effort to actually explain the mechanics of the process.

Funniest thing about this entire thread and argument is that yesterday, I was listening to sirius satellite Area 33 and there was a live brodacast from Miami (nikki Beach I think).

So the presenter is interviewing some DJ from the club and it goes something like this:

Int: So how come your in to dance music now?
DJ: Well it's all going that way, it's a good place to be and only getting bigger for artits like me
Int: So do you think the trend towards EDM is going to stay?
DJ: We been doing this for a couple of years now so we were some of the first to get in to it and it's blowing up big now. I think it's(EDM) going to get bigger, as more artists like me get in to, it's just growing and we did it first so more are now joining in
Int: SO how to the other EDM DJ's treat you:
DJ: It's all been good, we've been working with my boy(z) like steve aoki and Benny Bennassi and doing studio stuff and it's just getting huge. The clubs are packed and we're looking to get in to this more and more.
Int: So can I can a Wha?
DJ: WHA
Int: So people, coming to you live from Miami, as he take to the decks LIL JON!!

Cue bad house music now.



I cut a lot of the bullshit out of it, but the real gist of it was that mainstream Hip hop is dead and they're moving in to EDM (with "pioneers" like Steve Aoki).

So if hiphop is dead and EDM is where the moneys at, what are we all doing wrong?

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Originally posted by DJ RANN So if hiphop is dead and EDM is where the moneys at, what are we all doing wrong?

You just need to add a rapper to your tunes.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN So if hiphop is dead and EDM is where the moneys at, what are we all doing wrong?

It's who you know.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley More bang for the buck? Were you around when you had to buy vinyl and new needles on the regular? Being a DJ used to actually mean something (Hard to believe, I know)

yes steve was playin records before you i bet and was spending all my spare cash on funding the habbit to. worth every peny to

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Originally posted by EddieZilker It's who you know.

It always been who you know. That was true even back in the day.

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Originally posted by Eric J It always been who you know. That was true even back in the day.

I know. I was being somewhat churlish in likening it to more about being a popularity contest than being about relative talent - but I think, even when talent is the primary focus, who-you-know still plays a part in that.

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Originally posted by DigiNut It doesn't affect "digital sales" in general, it affects sales for specific labels/artists/tracks. Honestly, this is Econ 101, I don't see what's so hard to understand. Demand is going up, yes; I made that exact same point and even linked to a chart showing the exponential growth in online music sales. But supply is expanding even faster now that every bedroom producer is pumping out copycat tracks and every mickey mouse label is putting them up on Beatport. When supply grows faster than demand, the average revenue for suppliers decreases, even if the total revenue for the entire industry continues to rise. Obviously they listen to it first, same as they used to do in the record stores. But if you think that Bedroom DJ #5991 really gives a crap which label the track is from, you're sorely mistaken. Whatever's in the top 100 or in their preferred sub-sub-sub-genre of epic fluffy floaty uplifting megatrance, that's what they're buying. Well, you've convinced me. Actually I never said that fewer people were listening to "EDM" - just that the "scene" is shrinking because the umbrella genre is becoming more diverse and expanding into other areas (pop, rock, etc.) Again, you have no sense of scale here; demand is bigger but it's spread very thin with all of the different splinter groups. What's amazing to me is that you continue to argue when we are basically saying the same thing - it's not the fault of the listeners, nor is it the fault of the responsible labels, the problem is that there are 50,000 mickey mouse labels out there who have no regard for quality but are saturating the market with their crap (or diluting, depending on your point of view). Is this not the very same point that you are trying to make? The only difference seems to be that I'm making an effort to actually explain the mechanics of the process.

You did not make decent economic case for how saturation in EDM (more labels on a server that no one actually takes a look at) is hurting sales. Even though sales have grown exponentially in volume and reach around the world. The supply you talk about is not exactly supply in the traditional sense that would cause sales to stretch amongst suppliers on a given demand amount. What is happening is the best products are up front and building their brands and quality, and every other product is sitting farrr back somewhere that no one ever sees, touches, smells, or feels. YET they sell at virtually the same price as the product in the front, so why the heck would anyone move everything in the front aside (given the consumers tendencies and psychology), to buy the shittier product in the back? Do you avoid your favorite artists and labels and buy the mickey mouse copycat tracks? How does the s "copycat mickey mouse" product, to use your words even affect the sales of the quality product made by the good chefs?

The rest of what you said just says how clueless you are about the industry and scene in general. Since you say the scene in shrinking...please show evidence. Because there is enormous amounts of evidence of growth in the past 10 years, and the "scene" is not a "scene" anymore, it is "scene(s) and actually has grown itself into a culture around music. Actually EDM now creates culture in other parts of popular cultures, like girls doing a dance to Daft Punk and getting 5,000,000 views, something that NEVER ever happened anytime before. And guess what, each time a few thousand more find interest in EDM they never had. People who say what you say, very clearly live under rock.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cYWfq--Nw

An EDM song, created a piece of popular culture, to the point where 38 MILLLION viewers around the world, took their time to click, share, talk about, and enjoy what was made, all around an electronic dance music track.

To say that people are losing interesting, or the opportunities for the scene to grow, or the scene is not growing, is some of the most blatant ignorance this forum sees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLYD_-A_X5E


You know Lady Gaga? Her fame is attached EDM music, the minute she strays away from EDM and starts to push crappy traditional modern pop musice or hip hop, her fame will start to dwindle...why? People WANT and ENJOY and LOVE eDM music...around the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I
160,000,000 people have gotten themselves into a lather over a 4/4 EDM based track. Its virtually a CLUB track.


Now given that you cant give an economics case, reasoning, or analysis of how saturation affects EDM, besides "more label = more saturation", what do you make of 38 Million people enjoying a piece of culture, around an EDM track. You can start by telling us how YOU personally got into EDM. Perhaps the rock will lift, the sun will shine, and epiphany will occur then... (this is a trap)


ps: People do care about what labels the music is on, the same way they care about what brands they wear on their bodies and keep in their homes. In EDM...the quality Labels that sell, have a brand quality and aesthetic to them.

I'm all out commercial tbh and the first tune I sent out has been signed, but the other 49 I've never bothered to send or even finish as they were not original enough.

I don't have the slightest embarrasment or shame at wanting to perhaps be overlty commercial.

Alter ego, my label tell me there is good money still being made as long as the tune stands out.

Been thinking;

99% of actors do not crack the big time.

99.9% of soccer pleayers do not crack the big time.


Even in my humble day job world of finance broking, about 80% fail, 15% make a reasonable living, 3% make a very comfortable living and 2% are statospheric.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Been thinking; 99% of actors do not crack the big time. 99.9% of soccer pleayers do not crack the big time. Even in my humble day job world of finance broking, about 80% fail, 15% make a reasonable living, 3% make a very comfortable living and 2% are statospheric.

Actors and Soccer players dont exactly have the opportunity to control their destiny...Chefs can if they cook good food. No one can fire you if you make good EDM music. You just release it elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Alter ego, my label tell me there is good money still being made as long as the tune stands out.

I'll be interested to see if YOU see any money out of it.

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Originally posted by zodiac9 I'm going to be trusting here, and assume Beatport and/or the distributors are honest, because they can be audited at any time. The skeptical part of me thinks something is up. I'm starting to think I sell more than is reported. If the distributors are dishonest, we are all screwed. Hang it up. The music Biz is notorious for screwing it's talent, as far back as the 1950's, so it would be nothing new. I have a question, bout beatport, where it lists "customers that bought this, also bought this." How much of that is an indication of sales numbers? My EP releases all have the max 24 releases in that section. It could be that someone bought my EP and 20 other songs all in one whack, or if could be that I sold 24+

It seems to hold true for the first 48 hours. Then if people are actually buying it, fake additions are added. That's what I have observed. Other companies such as Juno are flat out dishonest when it comes to "users also bought this"

When it comes to companies reporting I have a bit of an advantage to be able to see the back end (if they let you in real time). I've done checks on the ones who allow for real time updates of sales and they have ALL been legit.

The one that I am most suspicious of, and others might not be, is iTunes. They're way of reporting is overwhelming and confusing. There are no 'real time check' possibilities. It's the least transparent distributor I have seen despite the confusing sales reports they'll let you look at.

The number parts are honest. What is a pain, or at least was, is getting a detailed quarterly report and payment in a timely manner. I have a new aggregator for that (ditched Label-Worx) and am looking forward to my first quarterly report from them. (Bonzai/BansheeWorx)

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Originally posted by DigiNut epic fluffy floaty uplifting megatrance

As a side note; Why should sales go up when the society itself is against this? Seriously, who buys records or cds anymore? Who goes to some mp3 hub when google can give you any album from any edm artist ever made, with albumart at max quality in .wav format? We don't need to hear from the 4 of you who purchase music, chances are you are already an artist, so your purchase is overshadowed by the fact that you add to the overall pile of content. Diginut said it fine. Why do these kinds of threads about "saving x aspect of edm" keep coming up? Shits unsavable man. Eventually edm will be a mass of artists just giving content away. What is to be saved when your whole world [edm] exists in a realm where ctrl+p and ctrl+v makes quantity obsolete. how do you stand to sell something that can be gotten for free right next door? Not even right next door, the guy standing next to you is offering your own shit, for free, while you are trying to sell it.

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Originally posted by cronodevir As a side note; Why should sales go up when the society itself is against this? Seriously, who buys records or cds anymore? Who goes to some mp3 hub when google can give you any album from any edm artist ever made, with albumart at max quality in .wav format? We don't need to hear from the 4 of you who purchase music, chances are you are already an artist, so your purchase is overshadowed by the fact that you add to the overall pile of content. Diginut said it fine. Why do these kinds of threads about "saving x aspect of edm" keep coming up? Shits unsavable man. Eventually edm will be a mass of artists just giving content away. What is to be saved when your whole world [edm] exists in a realm where ctrl+p and ctrl+v makes quantity obsolete. how do you stand to sell something that can be gotten for free right next door? Not even right next door, the guy standing next to you is offering your own shit, for free, while you are trying to sell it.

I don't believe there's only 4 people that buy EDM music though.

I for one (not to mention at least 10 other DJ's I know and mix with) will buy a good track from beatport if they like it. $2 aint a big deal. In fact it's far easier than getting some shitty unknown bitrate mp3 ripped from a radio show.

There's enough people like us out there to make a living if you put out good music, and therefore labels CAN be supported by those sales.


Yes, a lot of people do get music for free but just because you give yours away doesn't mean everyone is going to. Why would they when they know they can make money from it?

Don't use the justification of you giving your stuff away as reasoning to not pay a measly $1-$2 for a decent track in .WAV format.

It's just tightness, not some revolutionary stance on mainstream counter culture.

Not paying for music is nonsense (when it's the only legal way to obtain it that is - technically downloading music is legal in NL).

I buy all the music I use. Music which I spin and the music which I like to listen to, purely out of respect for the artist and common decency. I think it's important to buy the music, especially since I'd like to make myself a living out of music one day and wouldn't want everybody to download it from whatever source available except for the ones that cost money.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 160,000,000 people have gotten themselves into a lather over a 4/4 EDM based track. Its virtually a CLUB track.

As much as I don't want to get into this debate, I don't see how examples of public reception to established mainstream artists has anything to do with the smaller labels that diginut is talking about. I don't think anything he said made it seem like people aren't into EDM as much as they used to (IIRC he said the opposite), or that artists can't still hit it big.

@DJ RANN & Storeteller

Do you think everyone thinks like that?

Also, the myth that downloaded music from a ripped source is bad quality is just that, a myth. Because you know where MOST pirated music comes from? Someone buys the record/cd/mp3 and then hosts it on a torrent site. Or p2p, or what ever flavor of file sharing they use. Ive met people in p2p networks with many gigabytes of music, and they paid for all of it. Then they dropped it into their share folder, and that was that.

If you can't acknowledge how... basically "nice" pirates have it, then I don't think you will really be able to see the impact virtual media has on the growth in revenue for music in general.

Also, youtube has probably every song ever made hosted on it, and its in a quality that people are content with.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir @DJ RANN & Storeteller

Here we go, again.

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