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- Chill Out Room
-- Daniel Mackler - Essays For The Enlightenment Seeker
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Originally posted by Theresa After reading this, I decided this guy is a fucking moron and wont be reading any more of his bullshit trite.

Well, right fucking on!

YEAH!

This thread reminds me of slylee.

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Originally posted by Theresa Lie #9: You Cannot Blame Parents, Because �They Did The Best They Could.� My observation is that all parents, even the worst parents, �did the best they could.� Yet this doesn�t let any parent off the hook. A child has the right to blame his parents for their inadequacies�because their inadequacies damaged him. Laying blame at the feet of perpetrators is a huge step in breaking the intergenerational cycle of trauma�and sets the stage for healing. Lie #10: Psychiatric Medications Help Many People. Passively taking a pill, even if that pill helps you function better, sends your spirit the message that life�s answer do not come from within. This is an evil message, because it is untrue. People need to change their lives deeply, both inside and out, in order to heal. Real change is difficult�often hellishly so�but it is the only way. Lie #11: Addictions and �Mental Illnesses� Are Diseases. Addictions and so-called �mental illnesses� are symptoms of a deeper problem: unresolved trauma. Labeling symptoms as disease is easy and convenient for people who are terrified to look below the surface. Delving below the surface entails taking deeper personal responsibility, grieving, and feeling rage at traumatizers�often your own parents. How much easier to believe in �inherent� disease and let your parents off the hook?

what a fucking retard.

Actually, in throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, you're the one who comes across as the fucking retard.

People like Mackler and Mate are a radical thinkers, and in radical times...just because you don't agree, doesn't mean there isn't any validity to what they offer up.

Theresa, what if those people who you feel NEED to be on meds actually DON'T need to be on them, and it's simply a matter of present-day society not having the proper therapies in place to make this so? We used to think that bloodletting was an acceptable means to cure a plethora of diseases, that trepanning would take care of migraines and that lobotomies were a wonderful fix for psychiatric disorders. To think that we've somehow reached the pinnacle in the field of mental health and that our current models are the best that we can do conveys the height of arrogance (which you mimic perfectly in your dismissiveness).

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Originally posted by PivotTechno People like Mackler and Mate are a radical thinkers, and in radical times...just because you don't agree, doesn't mean there isn't any validity to what they offer up.

if there was significant validity to what whackler had to say he would have spent his time getting published in journals not selling DVDs on the internet.

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Originally posted by PivotTechno Theresa, what if those people who you feel NEED to be on meds actually DON'T need to be on them, and it's simply a matter of present-day society not having the proper therapies in place to make this so? We used to think that bloodletting was an acceptable means to cure a plethora of diseases, that trepanning would take care of migraines and that lobotomies were a wonderful fix for psychiatric disorders. To think that we've somehow reached the pinnacle in the field of mental health and that our current models are the best that we can do conveys the height of arrogance (which you mimic perfectly in your dismissiveness).

lulz. yeah, its acceptable to dismiss all knowledge and advancement because science is imperfect.

all you'd need to do is replace 'trauma' with 'thetan' and bam, you've got scientology.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if there was significant validity to what whackler had to say he would have spent his time getting published in journals not selling DVDs on the internet.

Yeah right, because being published in journals is the be-all and end-all of sceintific validation.

Psychedelic researchers like Rick Doblin (look him up if you've never heard of him) were forced, by the nature of their work, to operate on the fringe of their field for years, often vilified or completely ostracized from their so-called contemporaries. With the U.S. goverment having recently reopened exploration into the use of psychedelics as a healing medium, Doblin is now the leading reasearcher in the field. Doesn't matter whether you, me, or anyone else thought he was right or not, his perseverance paid off in the long run.

History has shown time and time again that some of the most out-there thinkers are the ones that lead us to the most radical discoveries about ourselves and the world we live in.

And "thetan" is a made-up word. Last I checked, trauma can still be found in the dictionary and refers to both physical and psychological injury.

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Originally posted by PivotTechno Actually, in throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, you're the one who comes across as the fucking retard. People like Mackler and Mate are a radical thinkers, and in radical times...just because you don't agree, doesn't mean there isn't any validity to what they offer up. Theresa, what if those people who you feel NEED to be on meds actually DON'T need to be on them, and it's simply a matter of present-day society not having the proper therapies in place to make this so? We used to think that bloodletting was an acceptable means to cure a plethora of diseases, that trepanning would take care of migraines and that lobotomies were a wonderful fix for psychiatric disorders. To think that we've somehow reached the pinnacle in the field of mental health and that our current models are the best that we can do conveys the height of arrogance (which you mimic perfectly in your dismissiveness).

Mental illnesses are as much an illness as cancer or the flu. You can't just use "therapy" to cure cancer can you? So what in the world would make anyone think that you could use "therapy" to cure something like schizophrenia? It has been medically and scientifically proven that many mental illnesses are directly related to damage in the brain, improper function and imbalanced chemicals. You can't just talk that away in "therapy" just like you can't talk away cancer, and any idiot who would suggest that it is possible doesn't deserve to be given any credit or thought in my opinion. It just proves that his ramblings are based off of a bunch of shit he has made up.

I also don't respect someone who believes that it is both ok and should be encouraged to have an external locus of control. I had a shit childhood... I would wager it was worse than a large portion of the people on these boards. I don't use that however, as an excuse to wallow in self-pity and point the finger at someone else for my fuck ups. YOU control your own life, YOU decide how you want to feel and what you want to do with YOUR life. It is not the fault of anyone else for how shitty your life is when you become an adult and take control. Many people have shown that they can come from the depths of hell and rise above it and have excellent lives by taking control of their own lives, working hard and stop blaming everyone else for their shortcomings. For this dude to actually say that you SHOULD blame other people for your shitty life is just pathetic.

The chemical imbalance hypothesis has hardly been proven scientifically. It's fair to criticize it. Indeed, there is plenty of scholarly work doing exactly that, so that alone is hardly a radical idea.

Accusing psychiatric medications of sending evil messages to peoples' spirits, however, is not a very useful or even meaningful criticism.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Accusing psychiatric medications of sending evil messages to peoples' spirits, however, is not a very useful or even meaningful criticism.

Hyperbole is useless, indeed.

The guy reads more like a cult guru. Everything I've seen of Mackler in this thread reads more like an argument negating cliche' than an actual argument. Comparisons to Scientology are warranted because with some minor adjustments to the script, the cult-speaks are virtually interchangeable.







I'll reserve judgment on Mate pending a perusal of his books at the library.

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Originally posted by Theresa Mental illnesses are as much an illness as cancer or the flu. You can't just use "therapy" to cure cancer can you? So what in the world would make anyone think that you could use "therapy" to cure something like schizophrenia? It has been medically and scientifically proven that many mental illnesses are directly related to damage in the brain, improper function and imbalanced chemicals. You can't just talk that away in "therapy" just like you can't talk away cancer, and any idiot who would suggest that it is possible doesn't deserve to be given any credit or thought in my opinion. It just proves that his ramblings are based off of a bunch of shit he has made up. I also don't respect someone who believes that it is both ok and should be encouraged to have an external locus of control. I had a shit childhood... I would wager it was worse than a large portion of the people on these boards. I don't use that however, as an excuse to wallow in self-pity and point the finger at someone else for my fuck ups. YOU control your own life, YOU decide how you want to feel and what you want to do with YOUR life. It is not the fault of anyone else for how shitty your life is when you become an adult and take control. Many people have shown that they can come from the depths of hell and rise above it and have excellent lives by taking control of their own lives, working hard and stop blaming everyone else for their shortcomings. For this dude to actually say that you SHOULD blame other people for your shitty life is just pathetic.

Sooo, he's made this shit up after 10 years of administering psychotherapy to hundreds of people. What are your credentials?

And again, if you actually took the time to read what he says, he doesn't advocate blaming people for their own shit lives then simply walking away with a smug grin, he states that NOT blaming the source of your trauma for your present condition is a form of very damaging denial, and that the anger that accompanies the resentment toward to perpetrator needs to be brought to surface, allowed to transmute to grief (which is all anger is in its most base form, and for some stupid reason a relatively taboo expression of emotion in modern society) in order for real healing to take place.

You seem like a pretty angry individual yourself. 'Nuff caps and arbitrary swearing leads me to believe so. Are you happy the way you are? No resentment toward the folks and how they treated you as a child whatsoever? No addictive behaviour that you wish you could control or eliminate altogether? If so, I commend you, you've obviously worked through your baggage quite thoroughly. If not, then you're exactly the kind of person Mackler's referring to and you're going to carry on seeing what you want to see, and nothing I, or anyone else says is going to convince you otherwise.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go put some motherfucking BASIL CLONES in water. Peace.

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The definition of child abuse is simple: whenever the spirit of the child is disrespected the child is abused.

I'm glad he sorted that one out before embarking on his argument.

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Originally posted by PivotTechno Sooo, he's made this shit up after 10 years of administering psychotherapy to hundreds of people. What are your credentials? And again, if you actually took the time to read what he says, he doesn't advocate blaming people for their own shit lives then simply walking away with a smug grin, he states that NOT blaming the source of your trauma for your present condition is a form of very damaging denial, and that the anger that accompanies the resentment toward to perpetrator needs to be brought to surface, allowed to transmute to grief (which is all anger is in its most base form, and for some stupid reason a relatively taboo expression of emotion in modern society) in order for real healing to take place. You seem like a pretty angry individual yourself. 'Nuff caps and arbitrary swearing leads me to believe so. Are you happy the way you are? No resentment toward the folks and how they treated you as a child whatsoever? No addictive behaviour that you wish you could control or eliminate altogether? If so, I commend you, you've obviously worked through your baggage quite thoroughly. If not, then you're exactly the kind of person Mackler's referring to and you're going to carry on seeing what you want to see, and nothing I, or anyone else says is going to convince you otherwise. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go put some motherfucking BASIL CLONES in water. Peace.

Well, I am a psychology major, but I am by no means at a point in which I could authoritatively argue against his "research". However, I am much more likely to believe in thousands of doctors and scientists who know that anti-psychotics work on their patients than some guy who effectively discredits himself by making the statements that he does.

I personally don't think blaming someone for the shitty things that have happened is a way to self heal. You need to acknowledge that you have control over your own life and move on and work toward making your life the best it can be. However, I would agree that in terms of abuse etc. people need to also acknowledge that they didn't deserve it and that they are the victim, not the perpetrator.

Contrary to your belief, I am not an angry individual. I do however, get highly aggravated at people who make statements like "medications don't help people with mental illnesses" when it could potentially send the wrong message to someone who may really need help. I feel that I can say with authority that medications have seriously helped people who have suffered from mental illness, and I know this from personally knowing people who have benefited from them.

No, I have no addictive behaviour, no unresolved issues, and no, I do not hold resentment toward my parents. I have accepted what has happened in my past, moved on and have decided to take control over my own destiny and work toward a better life. Holding on to grudges and pointing fingers will not do anything positive, nor will blaming my parents for my personal downfalls. I need to take ownership of my own life and my decisions and behaviours.

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Originally posted by Theresa Lie #10: Psychiatric Medications Help Many People. Passively taking a pill, even if that pill helps you function better, sends your spirit the message that life�s answer do not come from within. This is an evil message, because it is untrue. People need to change their lives deeply, both inside and out, in order to heal. Real change is difficult�often hellishly so�but it is the only way.

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Originally posted by Theresa I do however, get highly aggravated at people who make statements like "medications don't help people with mental illnesses" when it could potentially send the wrong message to someone who may really need help. I feel that I can say with authority that medications have seriously helped people who have suffered from mental illness, and I know this from personally knowing people who have benefited from them.

Maybe I'm just tired, but that really confuses me.

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Originally posted by idoru Maybe I'm just tired, but that really confuses me.

What confuses you?

He says "LIE: Psychiatric Medications Help Many People."

Which could arguably be read as "it is not the case that psychiatric medications help many people" AKA people who are on drugs for mental illnesses aren't being helped.

That isn't entirely wrong though...he just makes a very biased point without attended to WHY medication "doesn't help". I can sort of agree in the sense that medication ALONE doesn't help people. One cannot expect to heal psychiatric/mental illnesses without being aware of all the other socio-cultural-political-environmental factors that contribute to it. Otherwise, imo, you're just wasting your time if you expect a pill is going to solve all your problems.

I think, essentially, his message is quite true - that people need to attend to the root causes of their problems, which all kinds of research DOES link to childhood trauma. And that can be anything, if you're considering it from a social determinants of health perspective.

Seriously, I put it to the naysayers to read Dr. Mate's book. It's an eye-opener.

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Originally posted by Theresa YOU control your own life, YOU decide how you want to feel and what you want to do with YOUR life. It is not the fault of anyone else for how shitty your life is when you become an adult and take control.

Except not everybody has the same access to choice and control. You really think a homeless guy can just get up and walk into the job bank and get work? What address is he supposed to fill out on the forms? How would he even know that these places exist? What if he's schizophrenic? You think people are going to treat him the same as everyone else? Why do you think he would turn to drugs an alcohol?

Why can't this bum just invoke the spiiiiirit of childhood healing to salve his woes? It's possible - YOU CAN DO IT, TOO. buymybook

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Originally posted by jennypie One cannot expect to heal psychiatric/mental illnesses without being aware of all the other socio-cultural-political-environmental factors that contribute to it.

dont use your fancy words on us! you know its nothing more than trauma to the spirit of the child.

Philip, you have a very negative aura about you.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Philip, you have a very negative aura about you.

i have friends who swear by how awesome tony is, been to his seminars etc. one's now a stripper and the other works for avon. great work tony!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont use your fancy words on us! you know its nothing more than trauma to the spirit of the child.

Lol. Like I said, don't read Mackler, read Mate.

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Originally posted by jennypie Lol. Like I said, don't read Mackler, read Mate.

well, if someone was to felate mate in a thread i would definitely give it my due attention. and i certainly agree that there would be many examples where a person's addiction(s) could be attributed to a multitude of external factors. of course, given that we're only children for a fraction of our average lifespan, i would posit that these external factors could be an influence at just about any age, and certainly did not have to reside in our childhood.

i know for a fact that my nicotine issues aren't linked to dad yelling at me at 5am on christmas day in 1985 coz i was being a loud cunt like arbiter's ignored posts said, the idea that the "anti-panacea" could be traced to a unitary childhood moment is simply ridiculous.

Mate is a well respected medical doctor who works in Vancouver's downtown East side - which has the highest population of addicts in the world. He's done extensive research aside from his own personal experiences working with those with addictions, and has addictions of his own.

I just don't think many people are genuinely interested to learn more about it, and would rather stick to their uninformed beliefs about addiction. I suppose it's hard to see it the way he does if you don't have a background in health care and a broad understanding of mental health issues and addictions. But what Dr. Mate says does make perfect sense, and his arguments are entirely rational - and well supported by legitimate research.

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Originally posted by jennypie Mate is a well respected medical doctor who works in Vancouver's downtown East side - which has the highest population of addicts in the world. He's done extensive research aside from his own personal experiences working with those with addictions, and has addictions of his own. I just don't think many people are genuinely interested to learn more about it, and would rather stick to their uninformed beliefs about addiction. I suppose it's hard to see it the way he does if you don't have a background in health care and a broad understanding of mental health issues and addictions. But what Dr. Mate says does make perfect sense, and his arguments are entirely rational - and well supported by legitimate research.

which is why your opinions on the subject are ever more convincing than pivot's

Uh, ok.


edit: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

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