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-- An observation about all the longtime posters on here
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quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights Yeah, of course. Arguments aren't always a bad thing. There's just an underlying elitist sentiment that ought to be toned down.

How can one win an argument if you don't believe you're in the right?

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee How can one win an argument if you don't believe you're in the right?

I'm a bit confused as to how that question arose as a response to my disdain for how pervasive elitism is here.
Do you believe that being in the right automatically precipitates elitism? I don't. In fact, I think being 'right' has very little to do with elitism in Music Discussion.
Of course, this begs the question to be asked - How does one define right and wrong with regard to opinion? That's a difficult issue to tackle, and one that I've seen come up with some frequency here.

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights I'm a bit confused as to how that question arose as a response to my disdain for how pervasive elitism is here. Do you believe that being in the right automatically precipitates elitism? I don't. In fact, I think being 'right' has very little to do with elitism in Music Discussion. Of course, this begs the question to be asked - How does one define right and wrong with regard to opinion? That's a difficult issue to tackle, and one that I've seen come up with some frequency here.

Usually elitism arises when someone assumes they are always right (and therefore superior to those who are wrong).

I still don't see the point, forgive me.

on the contrary, the arrogance that is most prevalent comes from know-nothings such as our dear OP.

and that kind of arrogance is completely unjustified.

part of the reason I left these boards is this utter contempt of knowledge and experience coming from the ever-transient-but-ultimately-always-the-same array of trancetards.

what's this obsession with being 'nice'? if you were sprayed with vitriol, it's probably because you deserved it. come back in 5 years when you know a thing or two. then, argue your point with the fiercest passion you can muster, because quite frankly who has time for your one-liners and links to youtube ch00nz we've already heard a million times in a million different iterations?

you'll see what's really out there, once you get over this temporary attachment to re-music, ex-music and non-music. if your cathexis with EDM is as sincere as you would have us believe, that is.

tl;dr: fuck off.

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights I still don't see the point, forgive me.

The point in becoming elitist, you mean? I'm not sure many actually intend to go down that road, and usually those that do are automatically called out on it anyway.

The common 'TA is too elitist' complaint seems directed more towards those who are quick to either quip on recycled topics (which I see no problem with, to be honest) or attempt to hi-jack a thread with opinions about their preferred style of music. I'm ambivalent regarding the latter (probably because even I've been known to do that on occasion too, ), but I can see how that'd annoy some.

Still, it's been a while since a truly lengthy music thread's come about these here parts. Heck, the CD Reviews forum's practically a ghost-town now. Is there nothing interesting to talk about regarding new electronic music?

Re: An observation about all the longtime posters on here

quote:

Originally posted by osterzone When will you guys realize that people don't really care about your "track X sucks, this is better" type comments? The same people parade into every thread and whine about ANY track that the OP posted and then post something that they think is better, based on their subjective opinion. And you guys have been doing this for years too. It's like you have nothing better to do than to whine in every thread you post in. And then when people snap back you feel the need to turn everything into a flame war. I like this site, but I feel like this music discussion forum could be so much better if some of you put your egos aside and just talked about fucking music instead of trying to one-up each other on who listens to the "purest" and "best" EDM (again, all based on personal opinions that you cannot support with facts).

BRAVO!!BRAVO!!

Why cant people just say : "Not my style","not my cup of tea","not into (xxxxxxx) music......"??????

MUSIC IS LIKE FOOD!! PEOPLE HAVE DIFRENT TASTES AND JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE THIS TYPE OF FOOD IT DOSENT MEAN YOU LIKE BETTER FOOD!!

WHY CANT SOME PEOPLE GET THAT THROUGH THERE HEADS??

I think the main problem at TA is the lack of moderation and the lack of authority the moderators have. Also their moderating ways could be revamped a bit IMO. Closing a good thread because of some flames is essentially killing the good stuff too, which is pointless. I'd just split the flames to some other thread and tell everyone to not flame in the thread anymore and if it does continue then start giving out warnings.

Also the forum software could be updated as it's not really working as well as it could. A major revamp of the whole forum structure wouldn't hurt either. Killing off the forums no one ever uses (Finnish sub forum , Polls at least) and some that are just way out of place like Sports, Gaming and Political Discussion. I think those could very well be suited to a general discussion area, which the COR IMO is certainly not. The COR is more like an Offtopic forum with all sorts of crazy/random shit. I'd keep that as it is and make another proper general discussion forum.

Also one thing of note is that not all negative opinions are bad, which is what some people seem to think. Flaming is usually rather useless and useless stuff like that should be just cut out and sent to some "Useless Stuff" sub forum and let the proper conversation continue.

I think TA has great potential, but could be so much better. I'm hoping to see some changes in the future, but I'm not holding my breath as nothing has changed since i've joined.

quote:

Originally posted by distant on the contrary, the arrogance that is most prevalent comes from know-nothings such as our dear OP. and that kind of arrogance is completely unjustified. part of the reason I left these boards is this utter contempt of knowledge and experience coming from the ever-transient-but-ultimately-always-the-same array of trancetards. what's this obsession with being 'nice'? if you were sprayed with vitriol, it's probably because you deserved it. come back in 5 years when you know a thing or two. then, argue your point with the fiercest passion you can muster, because quite frankly who has time for your one-liners and links to youtube ch00nz we've already heard a million times in a million different iterations? you'll see what's really out there, once you get over this temporary attachment to re-music, ex-music and non-music. if your cathexis with EDM is as sincere as you would have us believe, that is. tl;dr: fuck off.

You're demonstrating the worst of everything we're talking about, and doing so with vigor. "Come back in 5 years when you know a thing or two." Reading something like that is embarrassing. It has very little to do with playing nice, being totally accepting. Do you really believe that music discussion shouldn't be a place where people can learn "a thing or two" by engaging in some sort of discussion about music ?

People join tranceaddict becuase they are, or were at one time most likely addicted to trance. Being an addict has absolutely NOTHING to do with knowing everything about it. Being addicted is wanting more. Instead of discussing the music, there's pure hate spewed, or vitriol as you said, when people voice opinions that differ from the consensus here. When somebody posts a new track they enjoy they're almost always scorned - mocked for their taste. When a new tiesto track comes out, for instance, and somebody posts it there's always hate, it's never "yeah, i don't really like that track. imagine being around when this came out though!" and then they could post a video of tiesto-fly. and we could all laugh. and the op could thinking 'wow. i love this song.'.

in case you were curious - no, i have never started a thread in here about new tracks. i very rarely even comment on things like that. i'm not stupid - and i know better than to do that. my tastes are quite open right now - i like reading the threads, discovering songs that i like. the board just doesn't support an environment where that's easy to do, that's all. i love seeing "what's really out there". The music discussion has very little to do with that, though. Anybody who spends 10 minutes here knows that.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J This is also complete nonsense. There are plenty of threads about tracks from many genres that don't get trolled like that. You just never click on them. And this is the thing - it's always the same group of people who listen to the same type of music who make these complaint threads. Plenty of people (including you) have endlessly trolled about genres they don't like, such as minimal or tech house, but nobody makes these pathetic complaints threads about it. Man the fuck up, son.

Just what I was gonna say. I would say that tech house and mininal house music gets bashed equally as much as trance these days. If not more. But the cry babies are always the trance heads.

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights Do you really believe that music discussion shouldn't be a place where people can learn "a thing or two" by engaging in some sort of discussion about music ?

there can be no discussion as long as these simpletons keep spouting their "it's all subjective, maaan" nonsense (as clubamerica demonstrated just a few posts up). the subjective status of music is a red herring. it is used by people who don't know how to argue, to veil their ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by distant tl;dr: fuck off.

quote:

Originally posted by distant there can be no discussion as long as these simpletons keep spouting their "it's all subjective, maaan" nonsense (as clubamerica demonstrated just a few posts up). the subjective status of music is a red herring. it is used by people who don't know how to argue, to veil their ignorance.

You're wrong there. Musical taste is very subjective.

whoooosh

quote:

Originally posted by distant whoooosh

My bad, you're actually correct.

like I said, it's completely uninteresting whether it's subjective or not. those comments move us away from discussing actual music (which is unfortunate since that's all Mr. LAdazeNYnights and others want to do), they're defensive in nature and are chiefly aimed at people who objectively know more.

if you want to learn, don't alienate the teacher.

quote:

Originally posted by distant like I said, it's completely uninteresting whether it's subjective or not. those comments move us away from discussing actual music (which is unfortunate since that's all Mr. LAdazeNYnights and others want to do), they're defensive in nature and are chiefly aimed at people who objectively know more. if you want to learn, don't alienate the teacher.

the teacher?
i just don't see how anything i've said is all that unreasonable.
who am i alienating and how?

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-MB But that doesn't happen most of the times. Also just few people tell what they do like about a track, even if they in general don't like it for other reasons. People who don't like e.g. uplifting at all, post that other uplifting tracks suck, but don't mention they don't like uplifting in general. To me it does make a difference: That track sucks. vs. That track sucks, because I don't like any uplifting. vs. That track sucks, even for an uplifting track which I don't like in general. Some people do give their opinion and even can put their personal taste aside.

But if you're a regular here surely you figure out over time where each person's musical taste is at? Do we need to justify every goddamn post by describing our tastes? So in practice what you want us to do is to be all touchy in our answers so you don't get butt-hurt.

The reality is that us folks that have moved from trance to other camps a long time ago don't have much patience or empathy for much trance anymore, it is so far apart in everything. When I meet here someone who likes modern Armin tunes, I simply don't have much respect for that musical taste because I don't consider it credible, it comes off as someone who is yet to discover better stuff or has stagnated at a point of our musical evolution that we passed ages ago. And why should we fake respect just for courtesy?

What you lot fail to understand is that lack of respect for your musical taste doesn't mean lack of respect for yourself - albeit forum nonsense would perhaps lead you to think so. Forum arguments grow, grow and grow, and sometimes people go out of their way to prove their discussion points by attacking others in the heat of debate. The difference is that those who've been here for ages know it works like this, whereas the newbies act all offended and go open threads like this. We're not super serious and don't really want you all to literally die in a massive ball of fire.

There is of course a problem with people going out of their way to attack others in threads they have no need to discuss - but doesn't everyone do this once in a while, some more than others? I've seen tranceheads trolling people in deep/tech house release threads and we didn't act all butt-hurt about it.

And I promise this is the last fucking huge wall of text that I'm writing in any thread like this, goddamnit.

quote:

Originally posted by noikeee What you lot fail to understand is that lack of respect for your musical taste doesn't mean lack of respect for yourself

and conversely, it doesn't mean I or anyone thinks they are a "better person" than anybody else. new people are so quick to come up with explanations laden with connotation for why forum veterans behave the way they do. we simply know more than you do. get over it. if you can do that, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

quote:

Originally posted by distant it is used by people who don't know how to argue, to veil their ignorance.

Saying "This track is an abomination to music" isn't really an argument either. I'm sure people in here who haven't been listening to trance for as long as others haven't been exposed to what you think is "good music." You talk about people "learning a thing or two," but if someone likes a track, and get torched, what exactly are they learning? Yeah, the "this track is horrible, try this" would be ideal, but I think what some of the people in this thread have said, i.e. "the elitist mentality" does hold some weight here.

People are quick to judge (usually harshly) others tastes in music, but I'm sure all of them were in the same boat previously. There must have been loads of people mocking their tastes in music when they first got into "the scene." I think the point people are missing is that it's not people being sensitive or "butt-hurt" by people's flames, but rather the frustration of the lack of actual discussion. If you don't like a song, say so, but don't attack a PERSON for liking it. Music makes different people feel different ways, and that's the beauty of it. Who are you to judge the listener for enjoying a track, simply because you do not?

Essentially it all boils down to the forum title. It's Music Discussion, not open musical taste court. People aren't posting a song they like in order to be judged by a jury of their peers as much as they're posting something to TRY and "learn a thing or two." If you think you have better taste in music, or the artists/songs you listen to are of better quality, maybe you should suggest some of it to them.

I just think the Music Discussion forum should be more about people discussing the music they like in a more constructive way. Be as brutal as you want in your opinion of the song, but leave the OP out of it. If you really get more pleasure out of bashing someone, than you would about helping to broaden their taste, that's really sad.

quote:

Originally posted by noikeee But if you're a regular here surely you figure out over time where each person's musical taste is at? Do we need to justify every goddamn post by describing our tastes? So in practice what you want us to do is to be all touchy in our answers so you don't get butt-hurt. The reality is that us folks that have moved from trance to other camps a long time ago don't have much patience or empathy for much trance anymore, it is so far apart in everything. When I meet here someone who likes modern Armin tunes, I simply don't have much respect for that musical taste because I don't consider it credible, it comes off as someone who is yet to discover better stuff or has stagnated at a point of our musical evolution that we passed ages ago. And why should we fake respect just for courtesy? And I promise this is the last fucking huge wall of text that I'm writing in any thread like this, goddamnit.

Yeah I would like YOU folks that think you are more than a newbie to add a few words with every post you do and just show some decency and not implying to present a fact.

I always thought that US older ones should try to be a good example to younger ones. I must be really old for thinking this....

What a total lame excuse. Who told you to be the one who knows what actually is better music?
To me it sound like you really earned the title to be an Elite.

Someone mentioned high horses?

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-MB Someone mentioned high horses?

Or unicorns.
Sorry I just couldn't resist

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 Saying "This track is an abomination to music" isn't really an argument either. I'm sure people in here who haven't been listening to trance for as long as others haven't been exposed to what you think is "good music." You talk about people "learning a thing or two," but if someone likes a track, and get torched, what exactly are they learning? Yeah, the "this track is horrible, try this" would be ideal, but I think what some of the people in this thread have said, i.e. "the elitist mentality" does hold some weight here. People are quick to judge (usually harshly) others tastes in music, but I'm sure all of them were in the same boat previously. There must have been loads of people mocking their tastes in music when they first got into "the scene." I think the point people are missing is that it's not people being sensitive or "butt-hurt" by people's flames, but rather the frustration of the lack of actual discussion. If you don't like a song, say so, but don't attack a PERSON for liking it. Music makes different people feel different ways, and that's the beauty of it. Who are you to judge the listener for enjoying a track, simply because you do not? Essentially it all boils down to the forum title. It's Music Discussion, not open musical taste court. People aren't posting a song they like in order to be judged by a jury of their peers as much as they're posting something to TRY and "learn a thing or two." If you think you have better taste in music, or the artists/songs you listen to are of better quality, maybe you should suggest some of it to them. I just think the Music Discussion forum should be more about people discussing the music they like in a more constructive way. Be as brutal as you want in your opinion of the song, but leave the OP out of it. If you really get more pleasure out of bashing someone, than you would about helping to broaden their taste, that's really sad.

Thank you. People are getting caught up in the Trance vs. Tech/Deep idea here - thinking that the problem arises from tastes having moved on and others still enjoying trance. I don't think that's quite the issue. I like trance, though I haven't been as exposed to it as many on here have been. I also love deep house - I've become quite passionate about it - but, again, I haven't been nearly as exposed to it as many on here have.

Distant keeps falling back on "maybe you could learn a thing or two" without recognizing that the desire to learn is exactly what I'm advocating here. He mentioned "alienating the teacher" when it is absolutely the other way around.

When that whole trancetop1000 site was first announced, I made a thread about it in here and eventually shared the top 10 that I submitted. Being a bit newer to trance but still knowing a bit about it, I recognized that some of the songs I chose would be understood and others would be flamed immensely but they were all tracks that, both at shows and in my bedroom, did incredible things to me. The best part about that thread for me was discovering tracks by artists I had never heard of that people considered to be top quality.

quote:

Originally posted by distant and conversely, it doesn't mean I or anyone thinks they are a "better person" than anybody else. new people are so quick to come up with explanations laden with connotation for why forum veterans behave the way they do. we simply know more than you do. get over it. if you can do that, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

Just a question for you and I mean no disrespect, but exactly how do you equate being a forum veteran here to having superior musical knowledge. I know in some instances you are probably right, but that's really a wild and arrogant assumption, no?

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