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Cool, thanks again for the listens...

I do use alot of automations it's true.

I typically use parametric EQ's over shelving, as it gives me a little more control.

I didn't physically add much compression on the piano...I suppose I might try adjusting the threshold and loosening up the ratio if it's hitting unbearably hard... I was sorta aiming for the oldschool compressed piano sound though.

And yeah, I'm trying to do a refinement method of work-flow. This track in question was mixed awhile ago before I really knew what I was doing, so digging into it and fixing the problems without screwing over the track has been tough. There are also alot of layers, so leveling is also proving difficult

And yeah a few of the synths were grabbed from some old nexus sample packs, so that's probably where the dated sound comes from. (I think nexus updated their sounds but I can't afford 2,400 bucks in samples =\)

Hopefully I'll be able to make some more modern stuff once I get aquanted with sylenth1.

if i where you, at this point id remove all the compressors and eqs, and start over with the mixing, ofcourse saving it as a new project so u dont loose what you have already done. you have some good elements in there but it needs to be redone mixing-wise i think. i have done this alot myself when things gets out of control. deleting all the compressors and eqs, reset the mixer-faders to 0 and start over with the mixdown. its a good practise too to clean up projects near the end.

I'm getting really lost in the number of previews I'm trying to help out with here, but, listening to "Summer Snow.mp3" again, your attempt at mastering is really ruining the sound. It's the mix that needs work - not strapping some limiter across it in an attempt to make everything better. I mean, listen to the drops after each "breakdown" - terrible ducking.... Focus on thickening up your sound with compression and EQ, or change the samples/instruments entirely as I've said before.

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Originally posted by Atlantis-AR I'm getting really lost in the number of previews I'm trying to help out with here, but, listening to "Summer Snow.mp3" again, your attempt at mastering is really ruining the sound. It's the mix that needs work - not strapping some limiter across it in an attempt to make everything better. I mean, listen to the drops after each "breakdown" - terrible ducking.... Focus on thickening up your sound with compression and EQ, or change the samples/instruments entirely as I've said before.

There's no limiter on anything...so *shrug*

And if you're getting lost in the #of previews, don't worry about it man, no worries.

This is an older track originally mixed with cheaper synths and equipment...I was indeed, simply trying to fix a mix I already knew was bad and was lookin' for some input. But yeah, I guess strip the mixer and automations is going to be required...

Had to do it with my very first track as well, and it benefited greatly.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers if i where you, at this point id remove all the compressors and eqs, and start over with the mixing, ofcourse saving it as a new project so u dont loose what you have already done. you have some good elements in there but it needs to be redone mixing-wise i think. i have done this alot myself when things gets out of control. deleting all the compressors and eqs, reset the mixer-faders to 0 and start over with the mixdown. its a good practise too to clean up projects near the end.

^^^

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Originally posted by theterran There's no limiter on anything...so *shrug* And if you're getting lost in the #of previews, don't worry about it man, no worries. This is an older track originally mixed with cheaper synths and equipment...I was indeed, simply trying to fix a mix I already knew was bad and was lookin' for some input. But yeah, I guess strip the mixer and automations is going to be required... Had to do it with my very first track as well, and it benefited greatly. ^^^

Well there's your first problem. Why even attempt to overload the volume if you don't deal with it the right way (i.e. using a limiter to 'catch' the peaks)? Too much volume equals clipping in the digital world and should be avoided at all cost. In fact I'd advice against any post 0 dBFS volume and get the mix sounning tight without any volume enhancment. I know I'm knew at producing as well (after having been an engineer for many years) and know it takes an incredible amount of dedication. Just don't let me discourage you as I'm only trying to help those just starting out.

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Originally posted by Atlantis-AR Well there's your first problem. Why even attempt to overload the volume if you don't deal with it the right way (i.e. using a limiter to 'catch' the peaks)? Too much volume equals clipping in the digital world and should be avoided at all cost. In fact I'd advice against any post 0 dBFS volume and get the mix sounning tight without any volume enhancment. I know I'm knew at producing as well (after having been an engineer for many years) and know it takes an incredible amount of dedication. Just don't let me discourage you as I'm only trying to help those just starting out.

I'm not discouraged...And I need to put together a tight mix without relying on limiters anyway.

I've recently started mixing to -3dbfs, where the seperate channels were mixed at 0dbfs unity and then levelled...then bring it up to 0 dbfs with the 4-band compressor as a final step.

Been practicing alot of "subtractive" Eq'ing...

I've also been using a filter to nip everything past 16khz...As Soundcloud won't accept anything past that frequency anyway. (And it ends up killing my tracks on the stream)

Cubase (and my monitors) have been adjusted to the k14 scale, and read a happy 83 db spl with pink noise in the sweet spot...

I also re-adjusted some bass traps and home-made diffusers...and it seems to have eliminated alot of my med-range frequency issues. (and altered my choice of reveerb)

This is on my recent "nice" mixes, and they seem to have turned out well.

Thanks again for das input, and the goal is to someday fix my previous tracks leading up to where I started 'actually' getting a grasp on mixing.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran I've recently started mixing to -3dbfs, where the seperate channels were mixed at 0dbfs unity and then levelled...then bring it up to 0 dbfs with the 4-band compressor as a final step.

I'd seriously advice mixing without that compressor, then seeing how you can get things to sound then.

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Originally posted by theterran I've also been using a filter to nip everything past 16khz...As Soundcloud won't accept anything past that frequency anyway. (And it ends up killing my tracks on the stream)

This is an absolute CRAP piece of advice. Don't filter anything from the top-end because you're ruining the quality of your work. I've just recently signed up with SoundCloud and it excepts FLAC as far as I know, which means lossless format.

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Originally posted by Atlantis-AR I'd seriously advice mixing without that compressor, then seeing how you can get things to sound then.

Sorry, let me clarify. I do the mix all the way without the comp...

Then when it's ALLLLLL done, I stick it on to bring out the qualities I like best.

Good to know about the .flac as well. Not a problem uploading larger files either as I have a 40Mb connection

dont tell me you dont use compressors, i can hear the level goes up and down out of control. so either you have it intentionally because u believe it will help the sound, or the render does it automatically to prevent clipping. try lowering the volume and see if its better.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers dont tell me you dont use compressors, i can hear the level goes up and down out of control. so either you have it intentionally because u believe it will help the sound, or the render does it automatically to prevent clipping. try lowering the volume and see if its better.

Where did I say that I didn't use compressors?

I don't use limiters alot no...compressors yes, limiters no.

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Originally posted by theterran Where did I say that I didn't use compressors? I don't use limiters alot no...compressors yes, limiters no.

Remember that a limiter is basically a compressor with extreme settings. I haven't heard your sample but if people can hear the levels going up and down out of control, this would suggest you need to drastically reduce the effect the compressors are having.

My guess is it's the multi-band compressor at the end.

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Originally posted by Atlantis-AR My guess is it's the multi-band compressor at the end.

Except...there's nothing on the master channel...in the example track now =|. (so probably the native compressors or maximus mucking things up, as Track2 was mixed in FL)

If you'd like an example of recent mixes, have a listen to yob or trundle on moi soundcloud...I've mixed both tracks the way I've described. For now...I guess I'll be busy for the next week on track2 trying to figure out what the hell happened.

Again, I'm still adjusting to my monitors so the mixes are still developing. Patience is a virtue...

I know I keep repeating myself but I do appreciate your time and the feedback...it helps me hone in on these problem areas much faster, and I can avoid them after having identified and fixed the problem.

Oh and I quite enjoy programming in sylenth :P Might need to get my hands on VirusTI next.

(Ended up getting quite the progressive synth on my first go around, threw on some basic prog. kick/percs for giggles)
SynthTest by TheTA

i dont how you do it but the levels are out of control in this last sample too. either you are pushing the volume too high so that FL reduces it on the render to prevent clipping, or you are doing it intentionally with a sidechain compressor on your synth, triggered by your whole drummachine. it does not work. sorry.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers i dont how you do it but the levels are out of control in this last sample too. either you are pushing the volume too high so that FL reduces it on the render to prevent clipping, or you are doing it intentionally with a sidechain compressor on your synth, triggered by your whole drummachine. it does not work. sorry.

Absolutely doesn't make sense. *frustrated* I updated the sample above to reflect the larger room settings on my Yamaha HS80m's. (no sub and see below for details)

This feels like something that I have to fix before I move on...because what's the point if I can't even level properly?

I'm monitoring max levels using my headphones (Beyer DT770pro) and amps set to 100%. If it was too loud it would clip AND hurt my ears right?...

And on the last sample it's in Cubase...

But all of my at home spl monitoring says it's ok...So I'm stumped.

I've made more adjustments to the monitors and reposted the synthtest track above to see if it made any difference. (it's nearly an 800-1000 sq. foot room I'm in.

Here's some pics of my sequencer, should clarify some things (hopefully)

I've shown my left monitor + sequencer, so you can see the levels.

I've shown the right monitor + Mixers and opened up both the sidechain compressor for the lead synth and the compressor for the kick. I wanted a bassier kick, so I cut the snap about -3db and boosted the bass/sub-bass about 3db

At max volume, you can see the master channel peaking at -2.9. (roughly -3db)

The only thing on the master channel is an unmodded-physics-based limiter to control the peaks as was suggested.

SO I am fucking clueless...Arf. I know most people use it as an excuse...but I really have only started since January of this year...EDM production seems very overwhelming overall but I'm just gonna keep on it...the faster I can work out my mixing disorder...the faster I can get back to making the music I lurv.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Absolutely doesn't make sense. *frustrated* I updated the sample above to reflect the larger room settings on my Yamaha HS80m's. (no sub and see below for details) This feels like something that I have to fix before I move on...because what's the point if I can't even level properly? I'm monitoring max levels using my headphones (Beyer DT770pro) and amps set to 100%. If it was too loud it would clip AND hurt my ears right?... And on the last sample it's in Cubase... But all of my at home spl monitoring says it's ok...So I'm stumped. I've made more adjustments to the monitors and reposted the synthtest track above to see if it made any difference. (it's nearly an 800-1000 sq. foot room I'm in. Here's some pics of my sequencer, should clarify some things (hopefully) I've shown my left monitor + sequencer, so you can see the levels. I've shown the right monitor + Mixers and opened up both the sidechain compressor for the lead synth and the compressor for the kick. I wanted a bassier kick, so I cut the snap about -3db and boosted the bass/sub-bass about 3db At max volume, you can see the master channel peaking at -2.9. (roughly -3db) The only thing on the master channel is an unmodded-physics-based limiter to control the peaks as was suggested. SO I am fucking clueless...Arf. I know most people use it as an excuse...but I really have only started since January of this year...EDM production seems very overwhelming overall but I'm just gonna keep on it...the faster I can work out my mixing disorder...the faster I can get back to making the music I lurv.

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about with all the above. Room sizes? amp settings? it will hurt your ears if its too loud?

This has nothing to do with setting the individual track levels when producing a tune. You are WAY over thinking all of this. I've listened to that very last soundcloud sample a couple of posts up.

My advice - TAKE OFF ALL COMPRESSORS ON EVERY CHANNEL AND ON THE MASTER. NO LIMITERS EITHER!!

Now start again and don't put any compressor anywhere. You should get a balanced mix in terms of levels just by setting the volume faders correctly for each channel. No compression required.

When I'm having trouble with a mix I turn all my faders down but my kick then re-mix around the kick. My master is always empty get your mix together before trying to put a donk on it mate

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con I have absolutely no idea what you are on about with all the above. Room sizes? amp settings? it will hurt your ears if its too loud? This has nothing to do with setting the individual track levels when producing a tune. You are WAY over thinking all of this. I've listened to that very last soundcloud sample a couple of posts up. My advice - TAKE OFF ALL COMPRESSORS ON EVERY CHANNEL AND ON THE MASTER. NO LIMITERS EITHER!! Now start again and don't put any compressor anywhere. You should get a balanced mix in terms of levels just by setting the volume faders correctly for each channel. No compression required.

I actually did start simply by reading almost every fking tutorial known to man on setting levels of drumkits, synths etc...I even picked up a 150 dollar recording technicians manual to help.

Also this thread : http://www.tweakheadz.com/perfect_mix.html

So up until now I've simply been setting everything the way everyone has suggested.

By amp I mean computer amp. Like the windows mixer in the bottom right. I also judiciously set all of the native soundcards EQ'ing to FLAT.
What I meant by hurting my ears...My headphones don't have an amp, thus if I plug them into my soundcard (creative x-fi platinum with Alchemy support) at 100% volume, that should logically be my specified maximum volume, where it's not obliterating my eardrums.

I add content and mix at 20% volume first to avoid ear fatigue...then when I'm happy with the track I'll mix once more at 100%) I also go back and forth between professional tracks to compare and see how I've done...This is probably what is adding to my confusion, because the levels in my recent tracks sound similar (to me) to professionally produced EDM.

Haven't tried mixing with just my ears...but I really don't hear anything wrong with that sample...The kick is the focal point, then underneath is the sidechained synth...clap and hats sit right underneath everything else.

So either communication fail or I am being seriously trolled. (the latter would be quite pathetic considering this is where one is supposed to get technical help)

maybe u use some sort of normalization option when rendering? i know logic has that and you should stay away from it. dont know if cubase has it though. could u just try to lower then master volume with -20dB and do another render? if its still there then theres definitly something weird going on.

i do think it is your sidechaining causing problem though. im actually 90% sure. it seems though that u your not using the kick alone, but the whole drummachine or something, either way you should remove it, only a baseline needs sidechaining.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran So either communication fail

It's this, no one is trolling.

Yes it is a good idea to mix at low levels, as you say to avoid ear fatigue but also, you will mix better at lower levels. If everything sounds clear and comes through at low levels, it will sound good at louder volumes.

Your sidechain needs work. It's compressing the lead too much - try shortening the release and/or lowering the ratio.

And what Kevin shawn says is simple but very good advice.

I can't hear anything particulary 'wrong' in terms of levels in the above sample.

It is too loud if there is no master compression - so just turn it all down, end of.

Then once mixed, it's time for mastering / loudening.

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Originally posted by theterran Except...there's nothing on the master channel...in the example track now =|. (so probably the native compressors or maximus mucking things up, as Track2 was mixed in FL)

If there's nothing on the master channel then you need to make sure the output isn't clipping or compromised in any way, it's as simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran If you'd like an example of recent mixes, have a listen to yob or trundle on moi soundcloud...I've mixed both tracks the way I've described. For now...I guess I'll be busy for the next week on track2 trying to figure out what the hell happened.

Will try to get back to you on this later.

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR If there's nothing on the master channel then you need to make sure the output isn't clipping or compromised in any way, it's as simple as that. Will try to get back to you on this later.

No worries. And I'm not intending it as a sneaky way to get people to listen to my tunes...

I really am trying to dial in good mixing practice, as I feel it's yet another one of my weakpoints.

I'm very very intuitive...so I tend to struggle horrendously with anything that's counter-intuitive.

Like G-Con already said, don't rely too much on compression. If that's not you applying compression on the kick then I don't know what is. Or the sample was already like that. Even the synth sounds rather compressed. Notice how the level suddenly goes up when the kick stops at 0:26, then compresses again when the kick hits. I can definitely hear things pumping and breathing.

Listening to Trundlethump, turn everything down and try to mix at a lower volume. Like G-Con said too, everything becomes clearer and will translate better when you mix at a low volume. If you're not doing any mastering (which is totally fine, in fact prefered), make sure nothing is being compressed as you're mixing as you'll probably be undoing all the hard work you're putting in. I know there are situations where mixing into a compressor might be favourable, but it's not something I recommend unless you really know what the levels are doing. The mix shouln't even come close to 0 dB. In fact some plug-ins work best right down at -22 to -17 dB, and, with floating point internal precision, you've got absolutely nothing to lose.

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR Like G-Con already said, don't rely too much on compression. If that's not you applying compression on the kick then I don't know what is. Or the sample was already like that. Even the synth sounds rather compressed. Notice how the level suddenly goes up when the kick stops at 0:26, then compresses again when the kick hits. I can definitely hear things pumping and breathing. Listening to Trundlethump, turn everything down and try to mix at a lower volume. Like G-Con said too, everything becomes clearer and will translate better when you mix at a low volume. If you're not doing any mastering (which is totally fine, in fact prefered), make sure nothing is being compressed as you're mixing as you'll probably be undoing all the hard work you're putting in. I know there are situations where mixing into a compressor might be favourable, but it's not something I recommend unless you really know what the levels are doing. The mix shouln't even come close to 0 dB. In fact some plug-ins work best right down at -22 to -17 dB, and, with floating point internal precision, you've got absolutely nothing to lose.

Cheers. The sample track did have sidechain compression on the synth, and the kick itself was compressed using calculated values...I used some automation to fade everything in, and once I set the max levels, the rest was controlled via cutoff filter + automation, and I was trying to add in some phrasing / crescendos to simply make the sample a little more interesting to listen to.

For trundle, I'll probably start simply by lowering the master fader some and seeing if that doesn't help. If it's loud, but balanced, it should do the trick I imagine. If not I don't mind reworking it, I'm very patient. I spent about 8 hours reworking ALL of the automations and eq's in my first track, after having put in around 80 hours initially.

Summer Snow (2nd track of mine) will most likely get a full strip and rework, as I had to do it with my first track... and they were made around the same time on the same cruddy gear.

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