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quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos playing a pre-recorded ser is not only inmoral but also won't work. You can read the crowd better or worst but you even unconscious get information from them and act so. I imagine my friend who likes electro a lot playing some underground tracks in a row and people leaving the venue screaming, if he hasn't got it pre-recorded is easy, you think "this is not working, try other thing".

There is an implicit agreement between the DJ and crowd that the DJ should mix songs together at the club, so I could see how a DJ using a premixed set could be considered 'immoral' because he breaks the agreement. But I wonder if the crowd would be happier if a DJ spends a lot of time making a flawless, incredible set at home and pretends to mix live. If the DJ is a good actor, I think the crowd would be happier in many cases.

If a DJ premixes two songs together in an incredibly awesome and novel way and plays that two-song mix at a club, is that wrong? How about three songs? Are playing prerecorded mashups wrong since the DJ isn't mashing up live?

Just something to think about. There is a lot of gray area.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Kinda like the manual on your decks and mixer?

Maybe if you spent a few minutes reading my posts instead of thinking of ways of writing pointless posts you would understand that I only use the sync button to match the tempo instead of using a pitch slider, which is a bit insensitive on my otherwise deliciously wonderful Numark Omni Control. I understand Traktor and my Omni Control quite well.

predicted response: "tl;dr"

Well-done again sir.

By the way, sorry to 360madness for how the thread has deviated from the questions in the OP. :P

if a dj doesn't spin live is like an actor acting while he reads the papers, it's not natural, it's not good. It's fine to bring pre-made mashups or edits, i am a great fan of this, but i feel that you always have to add some element of surprise to the mix, droping tracks you feel crowd wants, making tricks with the fxs... when people ask me for a track i usually add some extra things, say an acapella, skip the breakdown (i have a cd of breakbeats that i usually place inside the breakdown when is long/boring, this is handy to keep the flow) i think is what makes djs different to jukeboxes :S

quote:

Originally posted by Apeattack I'm not surprised that on a forum dedicated to DJing that many people are passionate about the need for manual beatmatching. Right now, most DJs have been DJing for years and are used to manually beatmatching because they had to. Being able to manually beatmatch used to be a valuable skill that club owners were willing to pay a lot of money for. Now that skill is worth a LOT less and will one day be worth nothing as sync'ing technology becomes better and more widespread. My posts are regarding the near- and far-future of DJing. What I stated in the above posts is inevitable. The sooner you realize this the less frustrated you will be in the years ahead when DJs who use a lot more auto-features than I do will be willing to DJ for far less money than you think your skills are worth. I want to stress again that I do not think manual beatmatching is silly or a waste of time. If you enjoy it, do it. At the very least the beginning DJ who practices manual beatmatching will get into the habit of listening for patterns in music and beat-counting while learning a skill that may occasionally come in handy (in the next couple years). But in the near-future I predict that most young DJs will see auto-sync'ing as normal and completely acceptable. There is a reason why a sync button was invented... there is a demand for it.

That's actually quite a good post. And i agree nearly with everything you've written.

quote:

Originally posted by Apeattack If a DJ premixes two songs together in an incredibly awesome and novel way and plays that two-song mix at a club, is that wrong? How about three songs? Are playing prerecorded mashups wrong since the DJ isn't mashing up live? Just something to think about. There is a lot of gray area.

Not really. Common sense should tell you that it doesn't take long for the crowd to get bored and stop paying attention to your mix, if it sucks. You can lose a considerable portion of your audience in less than a single tracks amount of time, let alone a full hour or more of premixed material.

I think it's okay if you want to play premixed material, but you should keep a very close eye on the audience's reception to it, and you should have a way to mix out of it very fast if the audience isn't enjoying it. Many times, you won't have any idea of what kind of music taste your audience will have on any given night, so the entire notion of spending hours "perfecting" a premixed set seems silly.

Pre mixed material will only work for a short time. I honestly can say I've never personally have seen it done. It would get boring really quick and eventually your crowd will find out that your not DJing. Hence less work for you. It's like going and watching a one man band. It's great that you bought all of these virtual instruments, but I want to see actual musicians. As a former drummer, I find drum machines to be insult. In some instances, they're fine to use, but never live.

Beatmatching manually or having a computer do it is always gonna get positive or negative feedback. A lot of old school DJ's will say manual is better. Especially when your first learning the craft. The reason I say this, no two DJ booths are alike, and you may find yourself in one that is not set up with today's gear. What are you gonna do then? It's always a plus to learn the old way first. As a kid I learned on two turntables (belt driven, before I bought my first 1200's) and a mixer. Sixteen years later getting back into it, I still prefer the old way. I do own Torq, and Traktor, and although they are great tools, majority of the time, there not for me and I leave them home. I trained my ears by listening to things musically, and for me looking at a waveform just doesn't work. It looks pretty though.

On topic. I learned by using two copies of the same track. I played it over and over again, then would move on to another track and follow step one. Learn this one, then onto another, then another. With this kind of training, I was able to train my ear on counts. Another good practice, don't rely on beat counters. They're never accurate, and cause problems then good results. Plus, just because two songs might have a beat count of 128, doesn't necessarily mean they will blend well musically.

There's many ways to learn the craft and make it your own. It all boils down to practice. The more you do it, the more you'll know your music, and the more you can rely on the ears first. Then go to the technology if you wish.

DJM - 600 has a beatmatching tool (on the effects) "AUTO BPM" i've never tested it, but as far as i can remember 800 hasn't got it so i think works pretty bad if the high end stuff hasn't got it.

On the other hand i believe most brands will start including the bpm sync, without judging if someone is a good dj or not a lot of people will look for sync button on their setups and club owners will look too as all the djs will be "decent" in opposition to whay they currently have (most can't beatmatch, i remember a funny article in a blog where it said: "Those djs who constantly make the songs sound like "pumpampumpampumpam" in their transitions but that when surprisingly the tracks are matched put a god face you feel the need of slapping them" )

But well on topic, i think this will become a standard, i remember that some people said in the past "LOL, bpm counters on stuff???? that's for noobs!!" and now everything has a bpm counter, i think something similar will happen with sync.

The logical next step is start using drum machines and other tools to make live sets like Deadmau5, Zabiela or Hawtin does...

Auto-beatmatching? dont let the pc do all the work for you
would look ridic on stage

Like a lot of people, I started out on 1200's and you HAD to manually beatmatch because that was a LIMITATION of the equipment being used.
Today I still do it because it is what I am use to and I trust my ear more then I do software. If Traktor (or any other software) could guarantee a perfect sync everytime , then why the hell wouldn't you use it ? You are now past a limitation that once was, and you have more free time to be more creative.

I don't know why people are on this whole thing about having to do it manually... I guess people are not looking at it the same as me.

*shrug*

Jay

quote:

Originally posted by brucelee6783 And while we're at it, why not just remove steering wheels from Formula 1 cars, and install an "auto steering" functionality to the cars. That way we can let the driver focus on his braking and acceleration. Damn, that sure sounds like fun. Manual beatmatching is an integral part of the entire DJ performance. It makes DJ'ing more "fun" in my opinion.

Or maybe a better comparison would be installing a semi-automatic gearbox so the driver doesn't have to worry about using a clutch... oh, wait, they have done

[I'm just playing devil's advocate here, not trying to pick a fight]


It's just the age-old argument which gets brought up on here just about every week. And there are so many parallels:

Take the furniture maker who's angry that people can carve wood using computer-controller machines... he's not out of the job because there's a market for the 'authentic' style of a hand-carved chair, but it's certainly going to make business harder and the average customer (comparable with clubbers in our case) doesn't care as long as it's functional.

Or the Royal Mail employees over here in the UK who are striking because their jobs are being threatened by mechanical sorting machines...

Or on a more musical tip, when electronic keyboards emerged in the 70s and meant people didn't have to spend thousands on a piano or guitar to create a similar sound, or digital recording studio now meaning pop records can be recorded without any instruments at all or even anyone who can sing...


Even in the DJing world, when CDJs appeared they were met with disgust by the vinyl devotees because they were seen as easier to mix with, but now I expect only about 1% of DJs use vinyl. But that's not a bad thing: with a bit more time, mixing with vinyl will be seen as a specialised art which will draw its own following.

In fact exactly the same has already happened with looping: before CDJs, beatjuggling was the only way to loop a section of a track (unless you're DJ Shadow, in which case you use a rubber band around the tone arm, or so the legend goes). I know several turntablists who were outraged when they found out people were 'cheating' and had buttons to do it on CDJs. Now, the orange buttons are seen as the 'normal' way to loop a track... so if you do see a turntablist beatjuggling, it makes it even more special.


It happens in every industry and the answer is always the same when technology takes a job which workers want to protect: the technology will gradually become more reliable and will eventually dominate, some tears will be shed and you'll be left with those with the manual skills being in the minority, but highly revered and more valuable*

It's then up to the individual DJ to decide whether they want to take advantage of the technology and focus on developing new skills with it, or whether they want to become recognised as talented in the traditional manual arts of mixing.


* Let's face it, with every man and his dog being able to beatmatch nowadays, it does feel like the hours we spent practising in our bedrooms have done nothing to set us apart from the crowd... but give it a decade and your beatmatching skills will be sought after once again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos The logical next step is start using drum machines and other tools to make live sets like Deadmau5, Zabiela or Hawtin does...

I agree with this.

In the future, the DJs who will be the biggest draws still will be those who produce the most popular tracks (e.g., Armin, Tiesto, Guetta, etc.). But other DJs will be able to stand out from the crowd by utilizing tools in novel and interesting ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox It's just the age-old argument which gets brought up on here just about every week. And there are so many parallels: ... Even in the DJing world, when CDJs appeared they were met with disgust by the vinyl devotees because they were seen as easier to mix with, but now I expect only about 1% of DJs use vinyl. But that's not a bad thing: with a bit more time, mixing with vinyl will be seen as a specialised art which will draw its own following. ... Now, the orange buttons are seen as the 'normal' way to loop a track... so if you do see a turntablist beatjuggling, it makes it even more special. It happens in every industry and the answer is always the same when technology takes a job which workers want to protect: the technology will gradually become more reliable and will eventually dominate, some tears will be shed and you'll be left with those with the manual skills being in the minority, but highly revered and more valuable* It's then up to the individual DJ to decide whether they want to take advantage of the technology and focus on developing new skills with it, or whether they want to become recognised as talented in the traditional manual arts of mixing. * Let's face it, with every man and his dog being able to beatmatch nowadays, it does feel like the hours we spent practising in our bedrooms have done nothing to set us apart from the crowd... but give it a decade and your beatmatching skills will be sought after once again.

I agree with most of what you say except that I do not think that DJs who use vinyl and beatmatch manually have skills that will be sought after once technology makes those skills completely obsolete.

Someone may pay a carpenter to make a chair by hand because the chair likely will last longer than an Ikea chair and the chair has a certain stylish look to it. But can you imagine a club owner paying a DJ to mix only with vinyl records? The club owner likely doesn't care what a DJ uses as long as he/she brings in warm bodies and keeps them dancing and drinking. Most club patrons can't see what the DJ is doing and don't care if the DJ is using turntables or CDJs.

In 5-10 years, I don't believe there will be any monetary value to learning how to mix with vinyl or manually beatmatching. There may be sentimental value (which can be very important to the individual), and you may get the respect of certain DJs, but those skills will not help you pay the bills.

All that being said...
If a DJ loves to use vinyl and manually beatmatch, great. We all started DJing because we have a passion for music, love to show off to the crowd, etc... and it is important to keep doing what you love.

Learn with vinyl. End of story.

Such a funny yet irrelevant argument everyone is making about beat matching vs. autosync. All i know is..

I can press the auto sync button on anyones midi controller and software. You can't beat match on my CDJ's. I therefore, by nature, already have more skill than you do and we haven't even started mixing lol!! Done and done

quote:

Originally posted by RyanVice Such a funny yet irrelevant argument everyone is making about beat matching vs. autosync. All i know is.. I can press the auto sync button on anyones midi controller and software. You can't beat match on my CDJ's. I therefore, by nature, already have more skill than you do and we haven't even started mixing lol!! Done and done

Let's say you spilt coffee all over your flimsy midi controller/laptop and had vinyl/CDJ as a last resort. Would you still have more skill than the average DJ with minimum 2 years experience on vinyl/CDJ or would you run for the nearest sync button. You are not a DJ. Piss off.

if you can beatmatch you aren't a good dj solely because of this, those laptop wannabes you see in local clubs often don't have any clue about the eqs, phrases, fxs and keep redlining the mixer all the night, there are some things that you've to learn with practice, and with the autosync button people think they can play for a night in a club and can't.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanVice You can't beat match on my CDJ's.

Lol what?

quote:

Originally posted by RyanVice I therefore, by nature, already have more skill than you do and we haven't even started mixing lol!! Done and done

Pushing a button is not a skill. You are not a DJ. Sit down.

you tell em mr mystery

quote:

Originally posted by stealthman Let's say you spilt coffee all over your flimsy midi controller/laptop and had vinyl/CDJ as a last resort. Would you still have more skill than the average DJ with minimum 2 years experience on vinyl/CDJ or would you run for the nearest sync button. You are not a DJ. Piss off.

Bahaha! Someones panties in a bunch? Chill out you wombat.

I wouldnt know, i learned on vinyl and dont use MIDI controllers.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos if you can beatmatch you aren't a good dj solely because of this

Never said it did.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos those laptop wannabes you see in local clubs often don't have any clue about the eqs, phrases, fxs and keep redlining the mixer all the night, there are some things that you've to learn with practice, and with the autosync button people think they can play for a night in a club and can't.

My point exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Pushing a button is not a skill. You are not a DJ. Sit down.

You're right! Button mashing is not a skill, beatmatching is a skill. WOW You're right again! I'm not a Disc Jockey, I'm a business professional who enjoys mixing music as a hobby.

While your sitting at home hoping to be the next Tiesto and 'Searching for yourself' lol, im out wearing my big boy pants stacking ca$h.

PWND

quote:

Originally posted by RyanVice You're right! Button mashing is not a skill, beatmatching is a skill. WOW You're right again! I'm not a Disc Jockey, I'm a business professional who enjoys mixing music as a hobby.

At least you know where you stand.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanVice While your sitting at home hoping to be the next Tiesto and 'Searching for yourself' lol, im out wearing my big boy pants stacking ca$h. PWND

Ah, the internet - where any idiot can pretend to be anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos if you can beatmatch you aren't a good dj solely because of this, those laptop wannabes you see in local clubs often don't have any clue about the eqs, phrases, fxs and keep redlining the mixer all the night, there are some things that you've to learn with practice, and with the autosync button people think they can play for a night in a club and can't.

The opposite is not true either... in 2010, being a 'good' DJ does not mean you can beatmatch (based on my definition of a 'good' DJ).

Eh, this debate keeps going in circles because we all have different standards for what a 'good' EDM DJ does. For me, an EDM DJ did well if he/she forms a seemless mix that sounds 'good' to the club patrons regardless if he/she uses an autosync button.

Never forget that the average patron at an EDM club only cares about two things:

(1) Song selection: Patrons have to like the songs and the songs have to go well together. They may like song A at 130 bpm and keycode 12A, and song B at 140 bpm and keycode 2A, but putting them next to each other in a set is usually not going to sound 'good.'

(2) Good transitions: Finding good transition points and EQing well so that the songs form a seemless mix.

If manually beatmatching is part of your definition of a 'good' DJ, that's fine. But club patrons will not care if you manually beatmatch or autosync... they just won't.

I choose to spend the seconds I save by autosync'ing making sure the EQ'ing goes more smoothly.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Pushing a button is not a skill. You are not a DJ. Sit down.

So to you, is beatmatching all that a DJ does?

quote:

Originally posted by Apeattack So to you, is beatmatching all that a DJ does?

I'm pretty sure I've said nothing of the sort.

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