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-- JOOF's thoughts on the scene
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Yeah this place once had a lot of producers post here around 2000-2003 time. And a bunch of the big names would come here and never post here out of fear and rejection and what was being trash talked about them. Very cool indeed...plus it takes guts to speak up or admit contradictions.

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Originally posted by West27thPrgrsv Kinda like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2udfD-G-w ^ He's all about the money too.

This is really funny btw

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Now more than ever you don't need money to promote your art, or to make music. Anyone can make a track, anyone can put a track out for everyone else to hear. Any musician quitting because they aren't earning enough was never "all about the music" in the first place.

You still haven't answered the million dollar question for us. How can a new artist build capital to promote himself and his music without a viable economic model that can at least earn him some money to make a living on so he can evolve from being a bedroom warrior to an artist with bookings, licensing and sales so that there is some good music actually heard out there straight from the independent scene next the to crap from the majors from people who can toss 50 stacks into buying back their own records?

Answer the question or shut the fuck up already

i do love what j00f says and he is the best figurehead real trance can have!
just one question though:

is the 'scene' really that bad anymore ?

granted the commercial megaclubthingo scene is quite poor at the moment - but thats only one aspect (that argueably has always been like that anyway)

i live in one of these far flung countries - and any friday or szturday night i can find a solid, fun clubnight (and occassioanl large festival thats just outta town) that will provide me with awesome tunes from prog/tech/psy/good trance and awesome open minded friendly people who are about the 'scene' and not about being 'seen'

surely if we have this choice in melbourne its not that bad anymore in a lot of places around the world?

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Originally posted by West27thPrgrsv You still haven't answered the million dollar question for us. How can a new artist build capital to promote himself and his music without a viable economic model that can at least earn him some money to make a living on so he can evolve from being a bedroom warrior to an artist with bookings, licensing and sales so that there is some good music actually heard out there straight from the independent scene next the to crap from the majors from people who can toss 50 stacks into buying back their own records? Answer the question or shut the fuck up already

Luck.

This thread is stupid. Nobody should care what J00F has to say about "the scene." Have your own opinion and stop being spoon-fed by your idols.

quote:

Originally posted by A.B Luck.

Yeah walk into a bank try to get a business loan and tell them your business plan.
Don't give it too much thought just tell them you plan to be lucky and everything will turn your way.

It is like where do these people keep coming from

Heres another one:

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Originally posted by srussell0018 This thread is stupid. Nobody should care what J00F has to say about "the scene." Have your own opinion and stop being spoon-fed by your idols.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 This thread is stupid. Nobody should care what J00F has to say about "the scene." Have your own opinion and stop being spoon-fed by your idols.

Why did you bother posting if this is a "stupid thread"?

Thank god we have Existo back to set us all straight.

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Originally posted by West27thPrgrsv You still haven't answered the million dollar question for us. How can a new artist build capital to promote himself and his music without a viable economic model that can at least earn him some money to make a living on so he can evolve from being a bedroom warrior to an artist with bookings, licensing and sales so that there is some good music actually heard out there straight from the independent scene next the to crap from the majors from people who can toss 50 stacks into buying back their own records?

As I've already said this is irrelevant, not least because J00F is not a new artist. Also, "build capital", "economic model", "make a living", "licensing and sales"... this is not "All about the music". If you just want to get your music out there and have people hear it, you can do that on a total shoestring budget. I know artists without even a website or a label who have thousands of listeners. Look at a label like Ektoplazm, giving out obscure/niche music for free and so far having over three million downloads in three years.

I sympathise with people like J00F who are used to making a decent living from music and want to keep that up. But the things he's complaining about, such as producers turning to DJing and playing pre-planned sets, are also down to people doing shitty things to make a living. You can't have your cake and eat it.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J As I've already said this is irrelevant, not least because J00F is not a new artist. Also, "build capital", "economic model", "make a living", "licensing and sales"... this is not "All about the music".

Artists need money to live on and be able to focus on making music system. They do. They are human beings just like us. They are not ghosts. They exist in flesh and bone. They need things like you know clothes and food.... yeah musicians need to eat too.
If a musician cannot pay his bills through music he will shift his focus from making music to doing something that can afford him the evil capitalist luxury of say buying himself a meal. So how is him shifting his focus from making music to having to I dunno dig a ditch somewhere, answer some phone-calls or clean toilets even, better for that artists music? In the environment where musicians cant pay their bills through music, that music will take a back-seat for those artists unless of course....




AHA!!




Unless of course said person is independently wealthy and does not need the money at all. It seems to me that only these people can survive under this new business model. Under your idea of a ''prosperous scene.'' That is cnot fair to me. In fact that is truly a fucking shame.
Most of the trance we heard was from regular people you wanted to put their music out there. Some of these people had hits and had their music played all over the world! Again regular people of modest means and noble intentions! Putting out amazing records reaching hundreds of thousands of people!
So of course people like JOOF and others who have dedicated their lives to this scene will express concern about the scene being sold down the drain. If you think about it JOOF already made it. He did. It is the little guy that is worse off now but since you seem to know all about what makes a scene prosperous I will bow out this thread and let you the expert have the last word

i just want some time machines ... too much to ask for?

(also i want some jungle percussion lines over trance melodies, which seems more reasonable.)




nothing else to add to this discussion really. all hairs have been split -- nicely, with style.

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Originally posted by pozz i just want some time machines ... too much to ask for? (also i want some jungle percussion lines over trance melodies, which seems more reasonable.)

I hear you on this.

been there done that get the mix tape

peace

John: Vinyl may suck because it's too heavy and "prehistoric needles are too much of a burden, but it certainly filters alot of the shit producers out of the weekly newsletters, and then you tell us that IT people have saturated the production and DJ scene with mediocrity (thanks to digital distribution). As for the rumble affecting the needle, go and lift up a Stanton ST-150 turntable and then come back to me when you're done.

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Originally posted by Light The Fuse i do love what j00f says and he is the best figurehead real trance can have! just one question though: is the 'scene' really that bad anymore ? granted the commercial megaclubthingo scene is quite poor at the moment - but thats only one aspect (that argueably has always been like that anyway) i live in one of these far flung countries - and any friday or szturday night i can find a solid, fun clubnight (and occassioanl large festival thats just outta town) that will provide me with awesome tunes from prog/tech/psy/good trance and awesome open minded friendly people who are about the 'scene' and not about being 'seen' surely if we have this choice in melbourne its not that bad anymore in a lot of places around the world?

The scene in Melbourne is the best in Australia, and I think quite good on the world stage.

And yet, there is no solid weekend night for trance (that I know of at the moment, feel free to correct me). Yes, you can go to great techno gigs most weeks, but they are sporadic and only happen properly when an international is around. I think that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong.

That is what Fleming is talking about - a club night with a loyal bunch of followers who show up every weekend, rather than the one-off international event culture in Melbourne.

In recent years, the closest thing we had to a trance night was Pharmacy, and I'm sorry to say that was rubbish. DJs only given one hour sets on average, and tracks like Full Tiltin played about three times a night. Besides that, which trance nights can you think of? That venue in Brunswick which had/has semi-regular psy nights?

Or better yet, which musical nights of any genre consistently draw loyal crowds without resorting to international DJs? 161, Revolver, Lounge?

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming 1) Purist? No I�m not a purist and hate anything commercial (I�m close friends with Armin, A&B and never say anything bad against them). All I�m trying to do is help unlock the way promoters and some clubbers look at the scene and show there is another fruitful way. Often commercial Trance can be an easy gateway to get people into EDM, once in they may eventually discover me! Things shouldn�t be so separated. No reason why one week you should enjoy Armin dance your socks of to some anthems, then the following week have a heads down night being battered by some dark techno. That�s what the scene used to be about, then people chat about it after and share experiences. Forums seem to create bad vibes on discussions like this today ☹

Well said, John.

I think one of the main reason trance has become such a commonly unknown type of music, is that there doesn't seem to be any communication between the commercial and underground scene. It seems that the house scene on the other hand doesn't really have that problem.

You see, if the establishment and the resistance are kept seperated, both parties will suffer from inbreeding. The commercial scene becomes this, cheesy, fluffy and bland same-old, same-old. While the underground only makes this obscure, avant-garde insider-stuff that nobody outside will get.

Why do I nag about this? Well, I'm a bit bothered why trance music haven't had its Pink Floyd, 2Pac or Iron Maiden. Trance have only had the stuff that's either stuff that's only Top 40 values or the stuff nobody listens to. Why isn't there any artist trying to fill that huge gap between the mainstream and the underground? Heck, why isn't there anyone even recognizing it?

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2) Producers & DJs Phew here we go again! Producers and DJ�s are a team. We need each other and that will always be the case. No one can hide the fact that if a guy that has been sitting in a studio all his life is presented with DJing at a club he will have no idea what to do. Things used to work when producers came into clubs playing �live sets�. There is no better feeling watching a true music geek twiddling on keyboards, and FX. The crowd on the dancefloor will be in a different mind set knowing they are watching a live set, in the same way when you�re at a concert to see a band. After all you�re hearing all his tunes you love, and seeing him perform live (he plays them anyway in a DJ set anyway!). Once finished the DJ takes over. This format worked perfectly for years. I think today�s producers should take this approach I know for sure it�s more fun for them. This also lets more real DJ�s onto the circuit. ** In the same way Anton Chernikov performed a live set for me in Brighton**

Good point, but you're forgetting about something. Electronic music is programmed, not performed. Since the invention of sequencers, you no longer have to have the talent of playing the guitar or the piano or whatever to create a masterpiece. Now, you just need to learn how to write music, something that gets easier with every new generation of sequencers.

The only reason that we have the illusion that performed music should be better than pre-recorded or programmed music, is because back in the very old days, like before the days of Edison, the only way you could listen to music would be to ACTUALLY SEE SOMEONE PERFORM IT. Today though, music is now reachable within a few button clicks and somehow it doesn't really feel the same as a live performance, even though it's EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

That is my main problem, that performance and presentation is somehow more important than the actual product, that is, THE MUSIC ITSELF. If you want the true benefits of live music, I can say that seeing Tron Legacy in an IMAX theatre will be the same experience as seeing Daft Punk playing the soundtrack on one of their gigs. I'm just saying.

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Originally posted by West27thPRGRSIV Artists need money to live on and be able to focus on making music system. They do.

No they don't. When a band is learning to play or a producer learning how to produce, they make no money at all from it, usually for years on end before they're actually ready to release something. And then it might take several albums worth of material before they are successful enough to make a living from their music. It's always been that way. Even in the 90s progressive scene there were producers who made a handful of records and then vanished without ever breaking through and becoming full-time musicians. That's always how it has been: hundreds of unknown producers putting out small numbers of tracks, and famous DJs picking up on a few, making them classics and delivering the thousands of sales you seem to think were guaranteed.

Yeah it'd be nice if we had a situation where a musician could do whatever they wanted and still expect to make a decent living, but that's life. Very few people in any walk of life have a job that lets them do what they love all the time.

I must agree with System-J here. Making a living off of your productions are not a necessity for creating good art (music). The story about bands working hard on their art for years before breaking through is an apt example of that.

I don't blame people for wanting to make a living off their work but for their creative purposes you can't really argue that a full financial system based in their art must be in place before they can produce qualitative work .

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No they don't. When a band is learning to play or a producer learning how to produce, they make no money at all from it, usually for years on end before they're actually ready to release something. And then it might take several albums worth of material before they are successful enough to make a living from their music. It's always been that way. Even in the 90s progressive scene there were producers who made a handful of records and then vanished without ever breaking through and becoming full-time musicians. That's always how it has been: hundreds of unknown producers putting out small numbers of tracks, and famous DJs picking up on a few, making them classics and delivering the thousands of sales you seem to think were guaranteed. Yeah it'd be nice if we had a situation where a musician could do whatever they wanted and still expect to make a decent living, but that's life. Very few people in any walk of life have a job that lets them do what they love all the time.

I think you�re somewhat distorting the truth a little, this is a typical stereo typical way of looking at the music industry from outside eyes. I lived and breathed this industry for the past 25 years and have seen huge changes.

One memory stays planted in my head of how I met the Digital Blonde in 1996. He sold his work van so that he could afford to press 1000 copies of his track (vinyl). He travelled all across the country selling these records to records shops and DJ�s (how I met him), he did this in order to buy another synth to better his production. This was one of many such like stories.

Back then we had a massive amount of weekly underground clubs supporting new DJ�s and producers (not like the one-off events you mentioned earlier). These DJ�s would play for pocket money in order to survive and keep doing what they where doing with music.
It�s impossible for a DJ or producers to survive these days because there�s no clubs for them to play at. In London alone we had a good 50 underground clubs, I was resident at 10 of them for many years. Today we have Ministry of Sound and Fabric fighting for the same turf (with a handful of one offs). The same goes for other cities across the UK, and this is what put the UK firmly at the forefront of the EDM scene all those years ago.

Torrent sites have killed sales completely, any producer will tell you here on this forum it now becomes a joke when statements arrive. Yet they still peruse on making the music they are passionate about. In my eyes these guys are real hero�s, they make the ultimate sacrifice and get a �regular job� rather than sell out and make commercial music for the masses. They do this to keep their musical pride in tact. Why? Because they still have bills to pay like everyone else and they will put every spare penny towards their studios.
One prime example is an old friend I spoke to on the phone the other day, Oliver Lieb. He saw the scene head in a super commercial direction, so rather than sell out he took a break until this dust storm settles down.

Ask yourself this question, in your current job would you do three months of work just for the love of it and not take a wage? That�s the amount of work many producers put in a single release and in this day and age with Torrents site they hardly get any return. That�s dedication to their art and I respect that.

There�s a big difference between earning a living from music for your art and supporting family, while some chose to use music as a tool to become famous and grab as much money as they can.

I wouldn't give torrent sites the full blame of killing sales. There lies a responsibility as well at the sellers side.

In today's world a bedroom dj who wants to buy lossless EDM music gets confronted with almost a monopoly/duopoly cf. Beatport. Especially in Europe, a so called exclusive track (which is a ridiculous feature to have this day and age) will cost him/her �2,17+�1 for WAV handling (come on, this is just outrageous) and about an extra 20% of VAT. I know vinyls were more expensive and the so called "oldies" of the scene will say this pricing is not too high but still, in their days there wasn't a free alternative offering the exact same product, namely torrents. Now there are others sellers with more reasonable offers, like Digital Tunes (It's �1,5 for new releases wether you choose mp3, flac or wav) but in general they have a way more limited catalog.

What I don't understand is how labels these days still need these sites to sell their tracks, why can't they (some do) sell their tracks directly from their own homepage, eliminating the extra middle man and therefore setting a price which will convince (bedroom) dj's, who might have the same love for music as the producers who don't get any return today, to stay away from torrents, knowing that what they pay is going directly to the label and the artist. Are the operating costs that high to set such a system up? Are labels afraid that people won't find their music? Yet most labels are using social networks to get in touch with their customers these days so they have ways to reach people I'd guess.

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Ask yourself this question, in your current job would you do three months of work just for the love of it and not take a wage? That�s the amount of work many producers put in a single release and in this day and age with Torrents site they hardly get any return. That�s dedication to their art and I respect that.

I've pretty much dispensed with the notion of dealing with labels, at this point. While part of it is that I think I need to cultivate a bit more proficiency in some areas, a lot more of it is that the whole business side of things looks a mess with very little reward on the sales side of things. And I have to laugh when I read producers who have some pie-in-the-sky notion about reviewing their Beatport statements, as though some Life of Riley was going to befall them in the form of accrued earnings. While I definitely don't begrudge anyone trying to make a little side money, doing something they love, it seems that there's a massive mythology being promoted about how feasible it is; let alone making a living from it.

I think most djs aren't honest about what's going on, I get sick of watching them trot out the same old codswallop about how everything is all rainbows in dance music.

John is honest and upfront about his feelings. I respect that he's willing to speak the truth about how the commercial djs have hurt the dance scene with their inflated fees. He's right about the club scene in the UK, it's gone to hell, that's why the UK djs are flooding into the USA trying to make a buck there.

I reckon John's got real guts coming on here and facing the firing squad, some of you buggers can be brutal sometimes

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Ask yourself this question, in your current job would you do three months of work just for the love of it and not take a wage? That�s the amount of work many producers put in a single release and in this day and age with Torrents site they hardly get any return. That�s dedication to their art and I respect that.

This isn't a fair analogy because I keep my work and my art separate. I'm a writer and I do put about three months of work into a short story, then I have to send it off to a multitude of anthologies, competitions or magazines, usually paying �10+ entry fee a pop. I don't make any money from seeing my work published. You might earn �50 for having a story published in a magazine, you might be lucky and win �500-1000 if your story wins a competition, but I don't expect that and I certainly don't do it for the money. In the future I'd like to publish some novels (I suppose the equivalent of releasing an album) and maybe supplement my income with a few grand a year from that, but I accepted long ago that I'm not in it to become rich. I do it entirely to share my work with others. When people tell me they've really enjoyed a piece of my writing that's a massive reward for me.

I have a separate day job that gives me a steady income so I don't have to compromise my art for money. And it's been like this for most writers throughout history. It's the same as music - a few people become famous and earn millions, but even a lot of well respected, award-winning writers aren't rich, and often have to supplement their income with creative writing workshops and live readings. There's never, ever been any money in poetry - nobody ever got into poetry for the money. Same goes for most painters and actors and all other creative pursuits.

So yeah, I sympathise and I empathise, but the need to make money and the ability to make great art have always interfered with each other.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J This isn't a fair analogy because I keep my work and my art separate. I'm a writer and I do put about three months of work into a short story, then I have to send it off to a multitude of anthologies, competitions or magazines, usually paying �10+ entry fee a pop. I don't make any money from seeing my work published. You might earn �50 for having a story published in a magazine, you might be lucky and win �500-1000 if your story wins a competition, but I don't expect that and I certainly don't do it for the money. In the future I'd like to publish some novels (I suppose the equivalent of releasing an album) and maybe supplement my income with a few grand a year from that, but I accepted long ago that I'm not in it to become rich. I do it entirely to share my work with others. When people tell me they've really enjoyed a piece of my writing that's a massive reward for me. I have a separate day job that gives me a steady income so I don't have to compromise my art for money. And it's been like this for most writers throughout history. It's the same as music - a few people become famous and earn millions, but even a lot of well respected, award-winning writers aren't rich, and often have to supplement their income with creative writing workshops and live readings. There's never, ever been any money in poetry - nobody ever got into poetry for the money. Same goes for most painters and actors and all other creative pursuits. So yeah, I sympathise and I empathise, but the need to make money and the ability to make great art have always interfered with each other.

I recognize most of what you say when I look at my friend Lisaya. Having the fun or making tracks he likes is the most important. If a track would have success that's very nice, but scoring a huge hit will be very unlikely. Of course someone needs sort of a goal which is good and makes it even more fun. Without getting a track release it will be difficult to get recognition in the same way that you need a story to be published. People probably not knowing you well could say you only write for getting a story in a big magazine, as others will bash Lisaya's tracks for trying to be like a successful producer.
I always think that if someone does do something for a long time, success can't be the main reason to keep on going.
A hobby mostly will cost more then you earn with it and I guess that's why it's called a hobby.

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