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-- Everything popular is wrong - Stefan Goldmann
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Originally posted by Beatflux I used to, but most sets I listen to are pretty crap IMO. A lot of TA DJs are aspiring to sound up to date and novel, and that usually works to their disadvantage. A lot of DJs will pigeon hole themselves into one particular genre, and will only play what is current. Is it really so bad to play an older track that is great? Then you have the set cliches that include: If you are playing a trance set, make sure to play tech trance at the end. It really comes down to poor track selection. Their over inflated egos justify their eagerness to "put their artistic stamp on the music" and that gives DJs an avenue to try and express their crappy artistic skills.

I'm finding your viewpoints both counter-productively adversarial and genuinely outside the scope of my experience. Personally, I haven't had the misfortune (knock on wood) of being disappointed by anyone's DJ set, that I've heard on TA - including the live broadcasts in the COR.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker The standard characteristics and fundamentals are there. There's a beat, it's predominently synth driven. But there are nuances others are putting into their work, which seem to drive the DJ selection process, that are being missed, entirely, here.

It's probably the mastering.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker But I've yet to find (albeit I don't spend a ton of time in the DJ promotion section) a single TA production (TA DJ/Producers including their own work doesn't count) included in a set of other people's (some of whom may have been formerly active posters, here, but are not currently) work.

It does happen. I have had two of my tracks included in other people's sets here. One of those sets was very well-received, too, and I don't remember any comments about my track being a low point or anything like that. I know some others have had their tracks featured, too.

Even though, as I already pointed out, the popular perception of the producer forums is wrong, I do think it is true that what goes on here is somewhat out of step with musical fashion elsewhere on the board. The strongest fan group out there seems to fall along the spectrum from disco to different kinds of subdued house or tech house stuff, but not too much of that hits the promo forum, really.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker I'm finding your viewpoints both counter-productively adversarial and genuinely outside the scope of my experience. Personally, I haven't had the misfortune (knock on wood) of being disappointed by anyone's DJ set, that I've heard on TA - including the live broadcasts in the COR.

There's nothing adversarial about it at all.

I have been depressed for quite a while and that does affect my enjoyment of music. I can't listen to music that is decent or below. It has to be good or great.

edit: Tell me Eddie, why is it that the tracks that get produced here don't get played out by TA DJs?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles It does happen. I have had two of my tracks included in other people's sets here. One of those sets was very well-received, too, and I don't remember any comments about my track being a low point or anything like that. I know some others have had their tracks featured, too.

If you've got a link to it, I'd love to hear it.

Clearly, my casual browsing is writing checks my stated observations can't cash.

That said, ideally, I think there should be more. Not one in every set and I really don't want it to be some ego-driven fad, but simply predicated on a DJ's meaningful and deserved preference for one of our tracks.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Even though, as I already pointed out, the popular perception of the producer forums is wrong, I do think it is true that what goes on here is somewhat out of step with musical fashion elsewhere on the board. The strongest fan group out there seems to fall along the spectrum from disco to different kinds of subdued house or tech house stuff, but not too much of that hits the promo forum, really.

I've noticed the narrow focus, fan-base cross-sections, too, and that is probably part of it. Where the onus of the producer is concerned, however, I find a great deal of music I'm hearing, that I genuinely like in the MPPF, to be technically gifted but lacking in a fundamental ability to stand out in a meaningful way. Sometimes it's because it's imitative or that it holds to strict rules governing where every element is supposed to fit in. What it doesn't do, with great frequency, is take chances.

Perhaps it's an unfair comparison, but I listened to JOOF's 02-12-2010 Essential Mix, the other day, and every song on it was technically flawless and seemed to brim with carefully considered sound-design, employed both dynamically and aggressively, in such a way that just outshines 95% of what I hear in MPPF. There wasn't a filler (or maybe anything which stood out, to me, as idle filler - and please don't think I'm bashing producer's, here, with this remark) track in the set. Each of the tracks seemed to be constructed in such a way that they stood out.

I hear that sort of risk-taking here, very infrequently. What I hear a lot of is work that is certainly note-worthy but that seems to lack a voice of distinction and holds back a lot of what both could and should be put forward. I think it's something that people are quite capable of, here. They're just not doing it.

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Originally posted by Beatflux There's nothing adversarial about it at all. I have been depressed for quite a while and that does affect my enjoyment of music. I can't listen to music that is decent or below. It has to be good or great.

Depression is anger turned inward, so it looks like you're releasing some of that. Such all-or-nothing declarations aren't typical of anything other than discharging hostility, at best, and trolling, at second best. It seems very little thought was spared to what TA DJ's might be doing right, let alone appreciating that and there's also a specificity lacking from your remarks which makes discerning them as anything other than idle baiting seem quite foolish.

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Originally posted by Beatflux edit: Tell me Eddie, why is it that the tracks you, yourself produce don't get played out by TA DJs?

Fixed because I ask myself that question, a lot, and think it has to do with 99.9% my own short-comings as a producer and 0.01 percent my style.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker If you've got a link to it, I'd love to hear it.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=513400

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I've noticed the narrow focus, fan-base cross-sections, too, and that is probably part of it. Where the onus of the producer is concerned, however, I find a great deal of music I'm hearing, that I genuinely like in the MPPF, to be technically gifted but lacking in a fundamental ability to stand out in a meaningful way.

Well, so many things you hear in there come from people who have been writing music for a couple years or less. It's natural that they may not have developed a very distinctive style yet, and are largely focused on getting up to the sonic standards of their producer "role models."

I'm not sure what's so puzzling to you here, though. Of course there will be a big difference in quality between a forum that has no entry requirements other than having put together a couple minutes of sound and a DJ set made by a respected jock and producer with his own label and a couple of decades in the game...

lots of good opinions in here, the only thing i would say is the audiences have definitely moved from DJ to producer, I know we're all complaining about how easy it is to DJ vs produce but I can't think of anyone as of late who has made themselves famous from just DJing, can you (yes i know lots of people use ghost producers, that's a whole other topic)?

Maybe the general audience is wording it wrong or the media is positioning it incorrectly but the guys at the top [who actually write their own music] are artists (regardless if you like their music or not).

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=513400

Thanks.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Well, so many things you hear in there come from people who have been writing music for a couple years or less. It's natural that they may not have developed a very distinctive style yet, and are largely focused on getting up to the sonic standards of their producer "role models."

True, but I think this strategy is counter-productive in the long term. It seems to insulate from a very obvious resource which would serve to keep the aspiring producer abreast (huhuhuhhh - he said breast) of new ideas, lends insight as to how the tracks that producers construct are incorporated into sets, by DJ's, and offers selections of tracks in a wide range of styles, many elements of which are interchangeable. And it's not as though a producer couldn't find a DJ who's stylistically similar to their preferences, either.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I'm not sure what's so puzzling to you here, though. Of course there will be a big difference in quality between a forum that has no entry requirements other than having put together a couple minutes of sound and a DJ set made by a respected jock and producer with his own label and a couple of decades in the game...

Well, it was an unfair comparison.

The fact is that a lot of the song selection in DJ promotion has those stylistic elements which help the track to stand out from the standard musical bedding. The JOOF set, however, seems to amplify that which is why, in addition to the facts that it's both highly regarded by TA's and not the prototypical tech-house, house, or disco flavors, I used it as an example.

The difference in quality isn't what's puzzling me, however, as much as the fact that such a difference is hardly mentioned and that there seems to be little motivation to look outside of oneself long enough to notice it (even though that could well be a private matter, not yet subject to discussion). I'm not discounting the notion that the quality of tracks issued by individual producers are subject to their advancement on the learning curve, let alone discounting the fact that the learning curve, itself, isn't exactly mapped out or conducive of a cookie cutter path-way with everyone learning similarly and achieving similar results. It just seems that if you want to be played by DJ's - and most people here, do - that one should listen to what the DJ's are playing and be making notice of what distinguishes those choices in track selection apart from their own work. Especially in conjunction with your aforementioned fan-boi "role-model" self-taught methodology.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Depression is anger turned inward, so it looks like you're releasing some of that.

That's not true for myself.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Such all-or-nothing declarations aren't typical of anything other than discharging hostility, at best, and trolling, at second best. It seems very little thought was spared to what TA DJ's might be doing right, let alone appreciating that and there's also a specificity lacking from your remarks which makes discerning them as anything other than idle baiting seem quite foolish.

If you want me to be more specific, you could ask.

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Originally posted by Beatflux That's not true for myself.

Well, discharging hostility can be counter-productive, when taken to excess, so if that's not working, you might try focusing that energy on some creative endeavor.

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Originally posted by Beatflux If you want me to be more specific, you could ask.

Asking would negate the self-serving assumption I'd made that you only thought in the simple terms reflected in your sentences and, by virtue of that, were incapable of any discussion beyond the tip of the proverbial ice-berg.

Ofcourse I was joking a bit regarding DJ's, but the ego part is true, most people (exceptions left alone) are only interested in promoting themselves, hence a lot of the good stuff that is available here is not being noticed and picked up, by any other people than the few with a true altrusistic genuine interest in other peoples work.

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Originally posted by Zombie0729 lots of good opinions in here, the only thing i would say is the audiences have definitely moved from DJ to producer, I know we're all complaining about how easy it is to DJ vs produce but I can't think of anyone as of late who has made themselves famous from just DJing, can you (yes i know lots of people use ghost producers, that's a whole other topic)? Maybe the general audience is wording it wrong or the media is positioning it incorrectly but the guys at the top [who actually write their own music] are artists (regardless if you like their music or not).

Yep, and that's why artists shouldn't be calling themselves producers or a dj/producer tweener.

Personally, I like to refer to myself as a Grand High Wizard Of Audio Magic.

Randomly stumbled upon this while lurking, great set by a user named lucid.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=500356

Dj ing is not that easy, beatmatching is only tip of the iceberg.

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Originally posted by Beatflux What's a good DJ to you? A good marketer?

No, I know I've seen a good DJ when I get up and dance around. There are lots of factors that lead into that, starting with good technical skills, good track selection, leading to more advanced skills like being able to build and program a good set and deliver tracks in surprising ways, and finally being able to attract a good crowd of people who are like minded. Marketing a part of that last bit, but its not really what its about.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Good questions. I would say the answer to (2) is much larger than the answer to (3). I think it is generally assumed on TA -- and not just by the DJs, but by most who care about music here -- that the producer forums are full of people stuck in the year 2000, trying to make the perfect supersaw lead and snare roll. While this was perhaps closer to the truth five or six years ago, it has been false for quite a while, but for some reason the perception hasn't changed much.

See the post below you for why its still true. Most people in the production forum still like trance, they don't go to clubs to listen to music 9/10 times IMO. There are a few regulars who that doesn't apply to, but overall, most of the "producers" here are either kids who are too young to go out or older guys who don't like it any more.

In my opinion Eddie is spot on. Most of the stuff that comes out of this forum lacks distinctiveness because the producers here don't go out in search of new genres or tracks. Look at the hostility that gets shown towards dubstep here. Even worse, the new tracks they do hear seem to be ones they've heard on the radio, which totally distorts your perception of any new genre that does come along.

Generally, producers on TA just aren't plugged into the scene in any meaningful way, and that's why their productions are boring, they've been doing the same shit and chasing the same sound since 2002, and its grown completely stale for them.

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Originally posted by Beatflux DJs are not artists.

I've heard your music, and I can safely say that neither are you, dude.

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Originally posted by mathieu Randomly stumbled upon this while lurking, great set by a user named lucid. http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=500356 Dj ing is not that easy, beatmatching is only tip of the iceberg.

and she's hot too

Producers are now going through the same 'boom' that DJs went through 10 years ago.

People realised that DJing wasn't that hard, so everyone wanted to be a DJ. We ended up with more DJs than we know what to do with, so it became harder for them to get gigs. People realised that writing a few tunes can get your name known (and modern DAWs made it a lot easier and cheaper), so they started producing. Add that to the number of people who already want to produce without DJing and we've ended up with more producers than we know what to do with.

All these hundreds of producers haven't suffered from the same 'starvation' as DJs have because it's now so easy to set up your own label - you can do it for free - so you have hundreds of new labels hardly selling any copies, but not caring because it doesn't cost them anything.

But it does mean that it's very hard for producers to get recognised. And it certainly is no longer the case that you can get gigs as a DJ just by releasing a few tunes - they're all at it.

So soon people will cotton onto another way to get gigs and everyone will start doing that instead.

entirely agree with stu cox here. But may I add that this does not mean we're too many people trying to put music out?

Actually, I see this crunch into my area as the very best thing that happened. And the more the better.

Because in the next few years we will see a rise in terms of quality overall, in every single genre of music. Not only dancefloor music! We already have seen artists such as Apparat, Ellen Alien, Blake, Burial, become instant stars, and believe me, this is only the beginning.

Something's happening, like a huge reset inside the music industry, and for a better good. You can see it now, or you must be blind.

I like the spirit and attitude of dubstep, doing your own thing with no boundaries or limits. I doubt I'll ever be a fan, but I sure can learn something from it. Playing live with no quantizing, that's a fresh idea. I play live when I compose, but I always clean it up or quantize. Might be time to change that. I like break beats, 4 on the floor gets old. Well anyways, this thread inspired me a bit. Time to rethink things.

I've given up on genres, i make Raphie Sounds, whether people like it or not

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Originally posted by Raphie I've given up on genres, i make Raphie Sounds, whether people like it or not

+1

I think people, first and foremost, should be making the music they want to hear. Whatever genre it falls into should be something that occurs, almost after the fact.

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Originally posted by Lolo But may I add that this does not mean we're too many people trying to put music out?

Yeah totally. There's so much good music around at the moment, which is almost entirely because it's become so easy for new musicians to get their ideas down.

It just happens to be swimming in a sea of rubbish, so it takes a bit of filtering to get the good bits out.

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Originally posted by Lolo Something's happening, like a huge reset inside the music industry, and for a better good. You can see it now, or you must be blind.

Well, I was around when all of this first came about - the very reason this forum exists being that essential revolution in thinking about how music is made and promoted that began in the late-eighties and peaked in the late nineties. From my vantage point, it seems like two things are a factor. The first is that record companies and promoters, perhaps tenuously, seem to have regained control they were forced to abdicate because of the tectonic changes taking hold in the early nineties.

The second is that producers and DJ's are becoming aware of this interference along with some of the trends which caused it. It looks like people are realizing that the Superstar DJ phenomena didn't pan out as hoped, in terms of advancing the relevance of dance music as much as it allowed for a foothold with which financially dominant industry fixtures could maintain control over markets. How much of this represents a willingness to do something about it, remains to be seen.

You probably know things I don't as you're something of an insider. I've known of one DJ (who was really, really good) who just up and quit, deciding that the corruption of the scene was too rich for his blood. There seem to be a lot of these "state of the scene" blog posts, rants, et al, which take stock of the perceived short-comings that echoed his sentiments on his way out the door. Things have changed since the first damn burst and a lot of things seem more entrenched to withstand people who'd rock the boat.

For what it's worth, though, I hope you're right.

Lolo I hope your right, but bare in mind a BBC documentary on a famous London art school ended with the head teacher saying about 2% of students 'made it' in art, and they were the ones that were the best husslers, networkers and salesmen and by no means the best artists.

I see this in my business. Loads of business owners I know are very big into networking, breakfast clubs and so on.

I personally cant stand all the constant music marketing - you see it on sound cloud where someone gives a 2 word bit of feedback like 'cool tunage, check out my work here', it's like damn, everyone is constantly hussling.

High profile DJ's seem to me to be just like these other business people I know, always hussling.

There's an old American ditty about this;

'He who whispers down a well, will never make as many dollars as he who climbs a tree and hollars'.

I don't see things changing on any grand scale. People with lifestyle and family to feed will always sniff out nthe best route to money / sucess, no matter what.

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