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Originally posted by DjSuez I'm sorry, but i just can't believe that... It would be a hell of a job to create an earth LOOKING 4500000000 years old, but BEING 6000 years old. He would have to create the footsteps, skelleton's, print's, cavedrawings etc. from every creature that'd lived on this planet, and he could not even rely on evolution, 'cause in his opinion it never were... I think also that the footsteps etc. are proof of dinosaurs being there... And why would god create an earth which looks so much older than it is, it's not that it would make a difference to us...

I don't believe that God made the earth look like millions of years old, but with you saying its a hell of a job to do that, I have to say...this is God we're talking about He can do anything, making the earth look really old (even though I don't think he did it) would be a joke to Him.

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Originally posted by DjSuez How do God can then? time in the form it exists nowadays is a creation of men. If you're able to think without time, nothing woukd happen, or anything happens in a undividable little time.

Time is a concept that was invented by God for man. In God's dimension, there is no such thing as time. He exists forever and has existed since the beginning of eternity. In man's dimension, time obviously exists. Time is a means for us to grasp continuity in our lives. Many of you probably can't or won't believe that time doesn't exist with God, but of course that's understandable, because we've never lived without time, so we can't even understand it...

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Frost: Sounds like a self-realist to me. Simple wisdom and simple truths. too bad there are not too many of you around this planet.. At leas,t not yet, until you infect everybody.

Hehe infect everybody, i like it =-P. But really it is logical. I Have spent a lot of time thinking there is something all powerful out someplace, I have prayed and things have happened. But i just have a hard time latching on fully. I mean if i truely dedicate myself to something so much, live my life the way it is said i should. Just do everything in the whole outline of how to get into the gates. But when i die, nothing no gates, nothing who knows what happens. What if i spend my life praying and having faith but when its all over....nothing. What will my life have been for? I figure at least if love, respect just chill with everyone and live my life like me (The god of myself) That when i die, and there really is a gate, then i should be judged on what i believed in, not weather or not i had faith in something i had no clue was there. If there is this all powerful being it should be able to understand that and accept me. If not I am wrong and well then whatever happens, happens. Although im not going to live in fear of the fact that I may be turned away. Thats not life, thats slavery.

I wont react on everybody personally...though i still have read everything in thisd thread. I think it's very interesting.

Everyone believing in the bible and god an so on, is making up excuses for people saying that the bible isn't true. A century ago people just said everything in the bible is true. With more and more evidence coming wich reject this, christians are more and more saying that it's ment not literrally etc. I think that's weak, with all do respect. You just have to stay by what you stabd for, and not change your opinion because you can't hold it anymore...


To Mart: of course men can't understand universe, but people like S Hawkings are getting it more and more. Look, things like lightning and stuff are things we used to say it were the gods of thunder or whatever, but we came to understand it. With the universe it's the same in my opinion, we now say it's gods and stuff, but in a couple of hundreds, maybe thousands of years, if we still exist then, we'll understand it completely. The earth isn't the center of the universe, and there are planets like ours, but we can't see shit of the planets outside our milky way. So there's no way we can tell if we are the only ones out there...

Cuz when god created this all for us, why so big, and why so many dangers like meteors and stuff?

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I don't believe that God made the earth look like millions of years old, but with you saying its a hell of a job to do that, I have to say...this is God we're talking about He can do anything, making the earth look really old (even though I don't think he did it) would be a joke to Him.

I think when you say that you can explain everything by saying 'it was god!!' There's just no logic in making a planet looking older than it is, or making a shitload of universe, for just one planet... Sorry, my opinion is if you just say 'it was god'.. you're ignorant...

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Astrologer? I believe it's Stephen Hawking (theoretical physicist) who theorizes the Big Bang originated from a black hole. I read his latest book, "Universe in a Nutshell", some many months back that showed the process with simple diagrams from a 'singular' point exploding out like a cone.

Yeah, that's him, i read that book fastly... But that point in time you're talking about IS the big bang, according to his book. And the time is then Pear-shaped, because of the bedning caused by the early matter flying in space.

Also a pity you didn't answer my question:

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If there's One God, why are there so many people on this planet believing in something else? Wouldn't that implicate that nothing of al that is true? Or that a lot of people(from all but one religion) are very stupid?

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Originally posted by DjSuez I think when you say that you can explain everything by saying 'it was god!!' There's just no logic in making a planet looking older than it is, or making a shitload of universe, for just one planet... Sorry, my opinion is if you just say 'it was god'.. you're ignorant...

I specifically said, TWICE, that I don't believe that God tried to make the planet look older. I don't disagree that there's no logic in it. What whoever that guy was saying is that "its a whole lot of work to do", and I'm saying, it being a lot of work is no explanation because God can do anything in a second. This has nothing to do with God being the explanation of everything.

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Sorry man but i think u are misunderstanding what was said. I think what he means is that the bible was meant to be guide and the events entailed there did not literally happen. It doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the bible. It means just, he believes in the moral lessons of the bible, not that those actual events happened. U can faith in the lessons of the bible without having to believe those events actually happened can't u? Unless, u are implying that by being catholic u have to absolutely believe everything in the bible actually happened. If thats what u mean, i don't have any insight on that so maybe u can elaborate a little further. As for his comment on christians who aren't "real christians" he is referring to people who judge other people based on the beliefs in the bible. Sorry i agree with him there. If anything, christians are supposed to spread the word of God. Alot of these so called "christians" use it as a base to judge other people. People who walk up to me and say ur going to hell if u don't believe in God and things of that nature are wrong. They are using the bible as a standard to judge me. God will deliever his decision on me on judgement day. No other person will tell me what he or she thinks God intended from their simple interpretation of the bible. These are the people i believe he is referring to as "christians who aren't christians." And in that context i am inclined to agree. I am not saying this to look down upon christians and such because i was one of them. But, criticizing and judging other people from the standards of the bible is not Gods work. If anything its prejudicial. and it goes on in every church.Judging people doesn't spread the word of the gospel any.

Thanks Elysium. You got it spot on. I felt a little offended for a second when he literally called me "ignorant" but then i read ur post

Im sorry i got the info wrong about that bloke who turned out to be fake.

Dj suez: -

Everyone believing in the bible and god an so on, is making up excuses for people saying that the bible isn't true. A century ago people just said everything in the bible is true. With more and more evidence coming wich reject this, christians are more and more saying that it's ment not literrally etc. I think that's weak, with all do respect. You just have to stay by what you stabd for, and not change your opinion because you can't hold it anymore...

This comes back to the term free will here because ur saying that we should continue the old belief of where we take the bible literally. Well, there are 3 views on the bible that are all accepted by the catholic church - learnt that in R.E (hehe i did learn somet at school )
Also id like to know what evidence there is to say the bible isnt true? All i can say is that if the bible isnt true, who cares? People who are associated with the church help others and do some fantastic things for others. Im not saying that everyone in the church is, because well lets be honest, all the child molesters who are priests are sick, and its a disgrace wot image they give the church! but people like mother taresa, and the current Pope John Paul, who has just been to Canada and now in Poland, hey do so much stuff to help, other people.

Man has grown to be curious about the things around him, space, the earth, everything, its only natural. I believe that only God can answer some questions that man have, which is allot of questions that people in the world have.

Matt

all i am saying is that you MUST take the bible as the word of god, if you just "interpret it" then you cannot know anything about your religion! you can't know anything, maybe Heaven and Hell is just a metaphor.

some people claim to be Christians, but then they have shaky views on the Bible.... I mean...WHY ARE YOU CHRISTIAN AGAIN?

if you meant something else, then you shouldn't be offended.

The bible is like trying to fix an Imac with a Commodore 64 manual...

you must believe that the bible is error free or the whole christian belief falls apart. Then again.....ckeer is wrong because he makes a statement and cannot back it up with fact.

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Originally posted by torontotrance you must believe that the bible is error free or the whole christian belief falls apart. Then again.....ckeer is wrong

Can you prove I am wrong my friend? The bible still says that the Earth is the center of the universe...but we have scientific proof it isn't..So blind faith turned out to be worng. (along with darwin theory and so on)

what proof

the second law of thermodynamics states the world is going from order to disorder.....not the disorder to order that evolutionists believe. Then again, no one has proven this law wrong yet, it also means the earth is winding down not up.

Darwin's theory was so flawed it was not funny, darwin made too many assumptions. I'll get into that at a later date....

If you are going to diss someone......read up on it.....don't assume things.

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Originally posted by torontotrance what proof the second law of thermodynamics states the world is going from order to disorder.....not the disorder to order that evolutionists believe. Then again, no one has proven this law wrong yet, it also means the earth is winding down not up. Darwin's theory was so flawed it was not funny, darwin made too many assumptions. I'll get into that at a later date.... If you are going to diss someone......read up on it.....don't assume things.

well what you said about disorder to order is really dumbing it down..there is no way you can explain The Thermo Dynamic laws by such an idiotic mean.Just because you read a website you found on askjeeeves.com on the laws of thermo Dynamics dosen't mean your a fucking scientist.(maybe you slept at a holiday inn last night) .lol

I can't understand ThermoDynamics, (i am sure you can TTA). But it has nothing to do with thermo Dynamics and more with pure Physics, and the cosmological constant problem that Einstein introduced. Which in turn goes into his theory on relativity..and that's something I could not possiblily understand in the near future...

but that's my point also, because I am not educated enought to understand it, I should just believe god did it, and be on my marry way?

I'm not dissing anyone, don't be so defensive.

Anyway. Arguing about trance is one thing,,,,arguing about religion is just pointless. I won't say anything after this post in here.

The word of God is in the message that is hidden in the parables and stories. That is what i mean.
Its only natural for a person to be shaky on their religion, or in fact shaky on anything! There is nothing wrong with that, God always says that he would always open his arms to his child that strayed off!
Im just a sensative guy i guess lol, i always take things to heart.

Matt

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Originally posted by torontotrance what proof the second law of thermodynamics states the world is going from order to disorder.....not the disorder to order that evolutionists believe. Then again, no one has proven this law wrong yet, it also means the earth is winding down not up. Darwin's theory was so flawed it was not funny, darwin made too many assumptions. I'll get into that at a later date.... If you are going to diss someone......read up on it.....don't assume things.

hhahaahahahahah

omg you crack me up.

once again another christian claiming they know more than 99 percent of the scientists.

First of all, I learned from my 9th grade science book (shows you how common knowledge it is) that the Second Law of Thermodynamics only applys to an open system. The Earth is a closed system, so evolution makes perfect sense.

Second of all, of course Darwin's theory is flawed! That's why scientists have been patching the holes Darwin had, hell it was a 150 years ago! The theory of evolution is still being perfected, its SCIENCE. don't just throw a perfectly good theory out just because it isn't perfected. just because theories change and are corrected doesn't mean you should just say "Fuck it, i'm going to believe in a ridiculous claim such as christianity!!"

If Christianity got one lick of evidence, I would shit my pants. The only thing it has is the Bible (written by people) and Jesus (a person). Christianity is based on the belief that these people were contacted and told what to do by God. Of the millions of people that have claimed this has happened to them, I find it ludicrous that these few people truely were.

open system eh....

we are talking about a time before everything....so open or closed..don't mean a thing....but the law still applies

UM....if i am not mistaken...the alternative beleif to "EVOLUTION" is "ADAM & EVE" theory right?..which is how the "BIBLE" explains the begining of Earth...God created Adam & Eve on like the 6th day or something then he rested on the 7th (Sunday)...

well that whole Adam & Eve theory is with out a doubt scientifically impossible...no chance in this world that happened they way the Bible explained it...

i mean just look at the most obvious reason...we can not trace human beings back to the dinosaur ages...not even 1 bone...yet we trace dinosaurs back how mnay millions of years?....so IF Adam & Eve is true (which it has NEVER been found to be) why cant we trace human exsistence back that far?....it's simple...they weren't there...so inturn as a LOGICAL person with a 3rd grade education can tell you that Evolution is the ONLY answer...

not too mention if Adam & Eve "IS" true (which again i STRESS it can't be)..but "IF" it was that would inturn mean that every single human being on this planet is related to one another...we would ALL be brothers and sisters, cousins, mothers and fathers of each other...so then isnt that going against the Bible by committing incest?...if i am not mistaken incest is a sin...is it not?....

most of which is in the Bible is fairy tales...written by the upper classes way back when, to scare the lesser people and to establish an order of some type...

I DO beleive in a God...and i beleive he created the Earth, however i do not beleive he wrote the Bible and that he created Adam & Eve...i beleive he is a higher power....but people who beleive that they must pray (which also is in itself a SELFISH act)and confess their sins and always do good so they can get into theis magical thing we call "heaven" are in my opinion fanatically absurd....it's all out of fear...thats it...thats what it all comes down to....

you wanna know what happens after you die?...absoulutley nothing...it is like before you are born..nothing...there are no pearly gates and no angels or what have you....u simply go away and thats it...people beleive in a heaven and all that stuff out of fear..because they think of they don't beleive in it that their worst fears will come true when they die...that worst fear being death = nothing...

don't get me wrong i wish there was a heaven and all that...but dont bet on it...i can be wrong..but i doubt it....

i say just live your life without fearing there is some magical being in the sky judging you....because if you REALLY beleive in all that biblical stuff then i hate to break it to you...we are all going to go to hell...why you ask?...because every single human being on this planet is sinful...and every human being on this planet as inpure thoughts...its normal and natural...but wait religious people will say if you tell God your sins...i am sorry let me rephrase...religous people beleive if you tell a priest or what have you about your sins that all you have to do is say a hail Mary thingy and everything will be ok...LOL...get on with your lives...NO God is judging you...he may exist...but he can give two shits about what you do....

so all youy religious people have fun living your lives in fear...which is what it ALL boils down to...

bring on the flames...

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Originally posted by davinox all i am saying is that you MUST take the bible as the word of god, if you just "interpret it" then you cannot know anything about your religion! you can't know anything, maybe Heaven and Hell is just a metaphor. some people claim to be Christians, but then they have shaky views on the Bible.... I mean...WHY ARE YOU CHRISTIAN AGAIN? if you meant something else, then you shouldn't be offended.

Hmm i understand your stance on the Bible being the word of God but, I'm not quite sure what how u are referring to the meaning of it. Everyone who reads the bible "interprets" it differently. Or God speaks to each person differently. Hence, we have differing views from person to person about what the bible actually means.(ie whether events in the bible actually happened are of no consequence in what i am asking. thats another discussion entirely) Maybe i am misunderstanding here but it sounds like u are implying all christians should come away from reading the bible with the same understanding. Maybe i am misunderstanding what u wrote, hope u can clarify.

try this website!!!!

try this!!!

http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/

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Originally posted by Elysium Hmm i understand your stance on the Bible being the word of God but, I'm not quite sure what how u are referring to the meaning of it. Everyone who reads the bible "interprets" it differently. Or God speaks to each person differently...

The bible is suppose to be the word of god, you said it yourself (and its also in the bible). And somewhere in there it says that gods word is eternal, ie it doesn't change. all these bible ppl try to interpret the bible however they want to make it suit the times, pathetic. a few decades ago the church wanted women to stay at home, only old style hyms were permitted, contraception was immoral, gays were evil...
the church nowadays claim to want to make religion more trendy to draw the younger audience, hahaha they're getting desperate.

Well, what I studied is that satan, was one of GOD's stronger and favored angel, but there was Jesus too, and there was a plan that had to come up in order to test us all, Satan's ( lucifer 's) plan was to AUTOMATICALLY do what GOD told us to, and Jesus's plan was to let us have the liberty of choice, to choose wheather to do the BAD or THE good, and GOD aproved Jesus plan, that made Lucifer mad and felt betrayed by GOD ( since he was actually the BEST ). So many followed lucifer, and others followed Jesus's and GOD's plan( those are US here on earth ). So what actually Satan is trying to do is to get moore of us into his side by doing the bad things ya know, but as Jesus plan was, to have a free will of choice, but if we follow the commandments, and do the right, we will be on the right path. After death, there's another life, the ETERNAL life , but thats only for those that have done the rigthneous. Before that is the judgement day, where we will pay for our sins ( so if you do them , repent and dont do them again ).Satan will also be TIGHTEN for 1000 years, then he would be loose again, and will go with all his powers on trying to GET us by you know.. doing the SINS. All this will happen obviously agter Jesus's second coming. I can keep on writing, but I know many will get confuse, this is some of the idea, that I have studied, and believe on.

This will go more for the christians ( hence Jesus is involved ).

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Originally posted by dr me The bible is suppose to be the word of god, you said it yourself (and its also in the bible). And somewhere in there it says that gods word is eternal, ie it doesn't change. all these bible ppl try to interpret the bible however they want to make it suit the times, pathetic. a few decades ago the church wanted women to stay at home, only old style hyms were permitted, contraception was immoral, gays were evil... the church nowadays claim to want to make religion more trendy to draw the younger audience, hahaha they're getting desperate.

Watch this, it says on apocalypses, that the most influential church in the world will get destroyed .. whats happening to the catholic church TODAY ?!?! mmmmm makes me wonder for those that think thats the REAL church.

I'm over this argument so i'm not gonna bother continueing in this debate. Let each man believe what he will, you just can't change peoples opinion or make them see otherwise it seems

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once again another christian claiming they know more than 99 percent of the scientists.

what can I add...

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Also id like to know what evidence there is to say the bible isnt true? All i can say is that if the bible isnt true, who cares? People who are associated with the church help others and do some fantastic things for others. Im not saying that everyone in the church is, because well lets be honest, all the child molesters who are priests are sick, and its a disgrace wot image they give the church! but people like mother taresa, and the current Pope John Paul, who has just been to Canada and now in Poland, hey do so much stuff to help, other people.

The evidence for the existence of Dino's and rocks found from 4 billion years ago, that's also evidence for the bible not being true, but about this evidence is been said enough, you ignore it, or just accept the facts...

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we are talking about a time before everything....so open or closed..don't mean a thing....but the law still applies

Come on!! just admit you're wrong...the earth spins around the sun, wich is at the side of a milky way... and the earth is ROUND, like a ball...not flat...

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Watch this, it says on apocalypses, that the most influential church in the world will get destroyed .. whats happening to the catholic church TODAY ?!?! mmmmm makes me wonder for those that think thats the REAL church.

Islam is the biggest Religion in the world, not christianity and certainly not Catholicism

and finally;

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God can do anything in a second.

Why has it took him 6 days to create the earth, and then he needed a day RESTING, so I guess it took quite a lot of his powers then...

(and why isn't anyone answering my question? )

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open system eh.... we are talking about a time before everything....so open or closed..don't mean a thing....but the law still applies

No, the law only applies to closed systems. And the Earth is not a closed system. Evolution doesn't go against any thermodynamic law. All evolution says (essentially) is that natural selection exists (which it does), and over the period of many, many years, it can account for grand changes in populations of species. You take a population of Polar bears out of the arctic circle and force them to live isolated from all other polar bears in a warmer climate, and the population will change. It will only begin with something like the bears developing thinner coats of fur (which is an advantage in the warmer climate) but, over time (a long time) the changes mount up, until the point where this population of bears become so different from their cousins in the arctic circle, that breeding between the two populations becomes impossible because the genes/chromosomes/whatever have become too different to allow for sexual fertilisation. It is at this point that we say the two populations are different species.

It's not difficult to understand, it makes sense, and - most importantly - it is the best explanation to fit the evidence we currently have. Generally speaking, the only people who disagree with evolution are those who do not understand it and have no will whatsoever to understand it. If it wasn't the best explanation, or it could be shown to be inaccurate or unworkable, then science would not have accepted it, for the past 150 years, as the theory that best explains speciate change during the history of the world.

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Darwin's theory was so flawed it was not funny, darwin made too many assumptions. I'll get into that at a later date.... If you are going to diss someone......read up on it.....don't assume things.

Now I don't want to seem as though i'm hounding you, but perhaps you could take your own advice.

You assert that Darwin's theory is flawed (even though Darwinism is quite different to the modern theory of evolution) yet provide no evidence to support this. You assume that evolution is wrong, I suspect, without really having made any attempt to understand it.

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Its funny that u mention the Big Bang. In the same book i was reading about omnipotence vs free will, there was a article concerning a a a famous Harvard astrologer(i forget his name). Anyhow, he was able to trace the origin of the unverse back to a single point in time. It was not the big bang as many had thought. I'll have to dig up the article but, i remember that this thoery had been tested and proven as far as my memory goes.

I'm not sure if it was an unintentional typo or not, but "astrologers" have absolutely no place lending their scientific opinions. If you meant "astronomer" then it's obviously quite different if an astrologer sees himself fit to tackle the origins of the universe while still assuming that the way we view the arrangement of the planets in our sky somehow affects everything that occurs down here.

And yes, I think all astronomers/astrophysicists (like Steven Hawking as Elysium said) agree that the universe began at a singularity. Without claiming to understand the process, the universe can be traced back to 10^-43 seconds (Plank Time) after what we assume was the big bang. Earlier than this point in time, the mathematics break down, as we begin to deal with infinities (in terms of heat, energy, singularities and so on). However, even if we can't trance it back the entire way, we can still tell that the universe would have - in all likelihood - began with a singularity (the size of a pea according to Hawking) that contained all the energy we see in the universe today. This singularity "exploded" sending this energy travelling at virtually the speed of light in all directions. It was millions of years (I think) before the universe was cool enough to allow matter to form in even the most elementary of forms (the individual atom) which should give you an idea about the amount of energy contained in the original singularity.

Some may argue that "God" must have set the Big Bang off (invariably referring to their own specific denomination of God) but to me I think it makes little difference. You can call the force that triggered the Big Bang "God" or you can call it "nature" or you can call it whatever you want. However, if you wish to call the catalyst for the universe "God" then all you're really doing is defining your own ideas into existence by calling something you don't understand in terms of something that you do. By calling the beginning of the universe God, you lend unjustified credence to the view you are attempting to purport - language is a funny thing.

You can't just assume that your own definition of God must have created the universe, because, by all accounts, the forces that may have led to the creation as we know it are likely to be quite different from your God. The forces are not necessarily infinite or omnipresent, and certainly not omniscient or omnipotent. If you wish to say that God created the universe then so be it, but you're probably going to have to rapidly change your definition of God, or risk being disappointed and/or living in a state of self-delusion.

It's probably all a bit anal, but it's something I feel that I needed to get off my chest. (Erm, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular btw, just to anyone who can be arsed reading it).

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I'm bemused that scientists have come up with such far-fetched ideas as to how we "evolved" into what we are now.

They didn't just "come up" with the ideas, they developed them over hundereds of years.

And they aren't far-fetched, just misunderstood.

Still, I'll agree with you on one point: I'm not sure I can really be arsed with this debate for much longer. :-/

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However, if you wish to call the catalyst for the universe "God" then all you're really doing is defining your own ideas into existence by calling something you don't understand in terms of something that you do.

My point exactely!!!

Another line which clearifies my statement (not proves it):

"God hasn't create man, man created god"


ow, and let's all read "The origin of Species" By Charles Darwin, then we can finally close this thread..though I'll be here untill no one postst here anymore..

as there are lots of stupid ppl, i tend to use his arguement

if the universe requires a creator why does a god need to be immune to this? which is easier to understand:
1. a complex intellegent, omnipotent "being" always existing OR
2. a complex universe, which follows rules, always existing

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