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-- John 00 Fleming and DJmag Poll thoughts
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quote:

Originally posted by pointPi I'd like to go one step further and say that DJ's are downright useless. Back in the 70's, the only way one could possibly have a listen to the latest music (at least in disco music) was by going to the place where the local DJ was playing. But thanks to the internet, I can access all the music of the world so easily I've never felt the need for a local DJ (or even MTV anymore for that matter). As the columnist said it's only, in our particular case, the producers who should be getting all the artistic appreciation.

If this is where your conception of the music rests, it's easy to understand why you've attempted to construct a comparative metaphor between music and gaming and the people, there-in, mostly because that metaphor is as invalid as your concept of the music, itself. As a measure of success, it could be said that all electronic/dance music has evolved to an intellectual stage where the milieu of a night-club or rave is no longer needed to either validate it for its mere utility as the sound-track dominating the late night out or simply to make it accessible as well as acceptable for listening to outside of such places. It's not that you don't enjoy it "properly" or even that your enjoyment of it reeks of a stagnation in your taste. Rather, it's that you're operating with an incomplete picture and one which is woefully neglected when making such claims.

I don't really think it will be hard to get other dj/producers involved in this

quote:

Originally posted by Scoops i love J00F rants but he lost me when associated Tribal with TWILO

I see you're from the US, for many years genres have got lost in translation over the Atlantic.
I'm talking about the British use of the word.
The same confusion often happens with British Hard House and US Hard House. It's a common topic that occurs especially between the European and US offices of Beatport.
Hope that clears that one up for you

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I don't really understand how getting a high placing on the DJ Mag poll will stimulate the underground scene. I just don't see the causality, just vague talk of "unlocking doors" and "convincing promoters". The whole problem with the DJ Mag poll is that the promoters who value it are idiots. You don't want to convince them of anything, you want to stop working with them. Get higher up on the DJ Mag poll and you're simply going to get more booking offers for the kind of events you hate. Feel free to explain a clear methodology to me, but I don't think this is the solution. Moreover, I agree that trance, perhaps more than another genre, has completely ossified into separate commercial and underground strata that have nothing to do with each other. It's probably impossible at this point to recreate a trance scene where credible music achieves widespread and unforced popularity. These things have to occur organically. Trance music in the '90s encapsulated a certain cultural zeitgeist, a mixture of millenial futurist excitement, predominant stylistic currents and the popularity of certain drugs. In 2011 the clubbing landscape is radically different. There are styles of underground music that explode and, at least temporarily, hit the sweet spot between artistic merit and widespread popularity. Nobody can really explain why dubstep took off so well, but it did it through word-of-mouth, press interest and a sense of striking a communal chord. I personally think trance has come and gone as a movement, and now it will only exist in this binary state of underground scene for devotees and ultra-commercialised caricature for the kids.

That's exactly why I'm here and value all of your opinions and I'm here to chat and discuss it. All of the posts and replies are really useful.
I just care for the more serious side of Trance, something that seems to becoming a smaller commodity and almost forgotten about.

I disagree when I hear a few people saying 'the good days wont come back'. I've been in this industry a long time and seen a couple of these commercial cycles come and go. I've been sat at debates wondering how things can break free from the commercial intrusion over the years, and eventually they do. We're at this point in time again.

I know for sure, thousands of people don't bother going out these days because there is nowhere for them to go. It's those very people that will support the new DJ's, the new promoters, clubs nights etc.
I promise you it will come.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming I know for sure, thousands of people don't bother going out these days because there is nowhere for them to go. It's those very people that will support the new DJ's, the new promoters, clubs nights etc. I promise you it will come.

Thank you... My problem exactly! I live in Berlin and there's no(!) Trance scene here at all. I have the choice between "high-heel" House, boring Minimal Techno/Tech-House and Progressive Psytrance. That's pretty much it...no, wait, I forgot Dark-Psy... -.-

Anyway, we as a community should support people like JonDC, who posted a bit earlier. His Entropy Nights are a nice change back to the roots. As far as I understand he trys to combine the Progressive, Trance and Psychedelic scene into one night to expose the audience to a somewhat wider spectrum of influences.

p.s.: It's so nice to see that there's still a proper discussion able to be made here in the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming I disagree when I hear a few people saying 'the good days wont come back'. I've been in this industry a long time and seen a couple of these commercial cycles come and go. I've been sat at debates wondering how things can break free from the commercial intrusion over the years, and eventually they do. We're at this point in time again.

I'm not talking about a commercial cycle for the club scene, I'm talking about the ability of trance music to connect with large numbers of young people. I heard some kid at work the other day talking about when he went to a beach party in Thailand and "some DJ was playing a shit trance tune for about half an hour". You say thousands of people don't go out because there's nothing for them, but how many of those people are the eager 18 year old kids who will drive this scene for the next decade? I think even if you played most of today's kids trance from 1997 or 1999 it's not going to capture their imagination.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not talking about a commercial cycle for the club scene, I'm talking about the ability of trance music to connect with large numbers of young people. I heard some kid at work the other day talking about when he went to a beach party in Thailand and "some DJ was playing a shit trance tune for about half an hour". You say thousands of people don't go out because there's nothing for them, but how many of those people are the eager 18 year old kids who will drive this scene for the next decade? I think even if you played most of today's kids trance from 1997 or 1999 it's not going to capture their imagination.

That bit wasn't aimed at you
Another chap earlier on in the topic was pretty persistent saying this.

This is always a difficult topic, as i do sympathize with people who don't have access to a local scene they can call their home. The only thing that strikes me as problematic, is that what is being suggested here sounds a bit like fighting fire with fire.

The idea of a localized scene forcing a single musical idea is too reminiscent of a state of - pardon the dutchisism - unitysausage. In other words: It's great for the people that enjoy the music, and DJ's will undoubtedly find it very cosy. But what about the people that don't like, in this case, trance? It's like a musical technocracy.
Though it is true that people in many cases will start enjoying the music when you violently jam it into their heads (hence the popularity of commercial music), it comes at the cost of diversity and is not something an underground scene should want to associate with. Even if the intentions are good.

Trance music may just be were it belongs now, Genres often temporarily take off and then start settle in their respective niches. The underground trance scene has very little to offer for the masses, with it's charms being abstract and rather druggy in nature, and it's rythmic structures unrefined and eccentric. It's a rather big leap of faith to suggest that there are hundreds if not thousands of people sitting at home waiting for something to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming I know for sure, thousands of people don't bother going out these days because there is nowhere for them to go. It's those very people that will support the new DJ's, the new promoters, clubs nights etc.

This is 100% true. There are indeed many of us out there that just don�t bother with the club scene anymore today. I do truly hope that this does change in the near future. One of the reasons is because I feel that the clubbers today aren�t going out for the music anymore and the DJ can play any garbage and the people won�t give a damn whatsoever.
I and many others would like to hear quality music when we go out and want to hear the DJ to take us to a journey. I don�t think that is the case with 90% of the Dj�s out there today. I�m all for bringing back the specialists scene and will do all I can on my end to make it a reality.

I appreciate 00's sentiments expressed in the original post but tend to think that ignoring the poll (and building something awesome that doesn't rely on it whatsoever) is the way to go. Work outside of the system instead of within it, essentially. That poll (or something like it) will always be around as long as there are promoters who need a fame metric. It might be terribly corrupt and inaccurate, but for some people it provides the closest thing to an objective quality measure as you are likely to find in electronic dance music culture.

We've been bringing John to India every year and I can tell you, first hand, the kind of impact he's had on the scene here has been significant. He's the only artist I've booked at every single edition of the Sunburn Festival in Goa, and I'm bringing him back again this year.

As promoters, we've booked acts across the spectrum - (full disclosure) both commercial and non-commercial. I've also keenly observed the impact the internet has had on a nascent scene like India's and the results aren't very pretty. Yes, to a huge extent, it's changed the way people consume music and this has had both, positive and negative ramifications. On the positive side, people are now more aware of and have wider access to a larger pool of music. On the negative side, this awareness (which in many cases is limited - "a little knowledge is a bad thing" etc.) has begun to influence DJs playlists - especially in a society where DJs are largely considered service providers and not artists.

We've tried to bring about a change in that hey-dj-play-my-song way of thinking. Why? Because we just felt like it mattered enough for us to try. It hasn't always made commercial sense, but it's been a fight worth fighting.

As for TA, I think it's a fight worth getting behind. The road map may not be clear... and it may never get clear. But having interacted extensively with John, I know he's the last person on the planet to lead you up the garden path.

Eventually, to vote or not vote is your prerogative. Maybe it'll make a difference, maybe it won't. Either way, if we have a chance of shifting the balance or of changing the scene, (at the risk of sounding like a stuck record) I do believe it's a fight worth fighting.

let me tell you guys about the experimental music scene in toronto, since that's the only one i participate in, and its useful as an example of a specialist scene. guys like hardcore trancer and SPANIARD are much more knowledgable about the trance scene in the city than i am.

really, the scene is about 3 small clubs and a guy's renovated living room (a few couches, a lot of mismatched chairs and a decent soundsystem). there are also numerous bars & other venues rented for one night to accomodate an out-of-town performer or bigger event.

regular participants probably number around 50. these guys are really dedicated, but no commercial success will come. Robert Rich came to perform at a church for an audience of about 70 a while back.

it's not dance music, so there is no network in place to establish really big gigs.

more later, when i have time. at work currently.

edit: what j00f is able to offer is some institutional support because of his links. if you really got something great going, then you'll get in one way or another. talent gets noticed. while what some have said that the underground stays that way, it's also true that the underground can appear even in big clubs -- like when a basically unknown guy gets to open or fill in the slot before or after someone like j00f. we are not talking about sound either -- we are talking about exposure. if joof got placed for a big in some jammed club alongaside some act like Cosmic Gate, then alot of people just heard a totally different sound. the way he handles the crowd and the progression of the night, there is no way they would get tired and leave before seeing their favorite drop anthems if that's what they are there for.

it comes down to trusting j00f to helping amateurs come up and get noticed. we can't kid ourselves that we don't trust the established forums/dj's/clubs etc. because we rely on them to bring talent in all the time.

i dunno what kind of framework he wants to put in place, what system to get people working, talking, sharing sets, tunes, but we gotta be willing to help. the best support TA has got in the last while is j00f coming into this thread and recognizing the crowd here offering serious power in swaying opinion.

I appreciate how john is so honest and passionate.

quote:

Originally posted by pozz we are not talking about sound either -- we are talking about exposure. if joof got placed for a big in some jammed club alongaside some act like Cosmic Gate, then alot of people just heard a totally different sound. the way he handles the crowd and the progression of the night, there is no way they would get tired and leave before seeing their favorite drop anthems if that's what they are there for.

The majority of the gigs J00F plays (or used to play until very recently) are like that. Certainly, both times I've been to see him he was bolted incongruously onto a line-up of useless anthem-merchants. It hasn't changed anything yet.

quote:

Originally posted by AY STAR very good response, i was actually gonna write something very similar the past few years i started evolveing and moving away from the big guys who sold out last cheesey event i went to was anjuna night at wmc this year, i regret not going to bedrock night instead...the music at anjuna was soooo cheesey and predictable...sun and moon,on a good day bullshit and you got these kids eatting it up and singing their lungs out at the same time thinking its trance music, never again do i support bullshit like that as for j00f, i wish you the best of luck with your new nights i hope it sparks something, me personally i do support local dj's and i see dj's who keep it real and not play the top 10 tracks on beatport or whore out their own productions for 2 hours and call it set...BUT i feel it's going to take more than just you to really change the way people see electronic dance music, you are pretty much the only trance dj speaking out about this...its going to take a few more and someone bigger to really get peoples attention hopefully dj's in other genre's from house and techno will follow and bash guetta and shm for makeing pop house music heres a link from the dj mag poll in 2001 http://www.olddjmag.com/index.php?y...00dj_op=results thats when it was a time when the music spoke for the dj, not facebook whoreing,pop tracks,selling out etc etc today its really a joke gareth emery above carl cox,digweed,hawtin,tenaglia etc etc they are the godfathers of modern edm its such a shame i havent voted since 2007 thats how bad it has been these past few years

I think the big name that is closest to not being commercial and thinks in a similar way is Markus Schulz. Get him to help

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Originally posted by foothegreat I think the big name that is closest to not being commercial and thinks in a similar way is Markus Schulz. Get him to help

you're wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo you're wrong.

u Airwave? do tell more. I know u and Schulz used to be pretty tight

we indeed used to... which is exactly why I'm telling that's not the right thing to do.

Yesterday, I made a public statement on my facebook page that all my fans should vote for john this year as their #1 and I'm going to tell you why.

Back in 2009 I was completely lost and some people took profit of my bad state and screwed me big time. John and I were very close during the same period and the only thing he was concerned about is how I'd get out of trouble. He didn't any second take profit of my situation, unlike some effing moron from MD, USA that I'd throw by the window if he ever came to me again. But oh well, I'll eventually keep those crusty stories for press releases. hehehe.

We're now two years later, and I can tell you that thanks to him I'm totally out of trouble, mentally back on track, and I've got one hell of an album coming up.

The man has proved me that you could stick to your roots and thoughts yet have a successful career.

Out of the thousands of dj's and artists, I've never seen anyone that socially available.

I think John himself would avoid those ranking things if he could, but the time has come to show you guys what we all have overlooked the past 6 years, and john is here and acting this way for that reason only.

I seriously owe him a lot. I was about to tear my career apart and he saved me.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo we indeed used to... which is exactly why I'm telling that's not the right thing to do. Yesterday, I made a public statement on my facebook page that all my fans should vote for john this year as their #1 and I'm going to tell you why. Back in 2009 I was completely lost and some people took profit of my bad state and screwed me big time. John and I were very close during the same period and the only thing he was concerned about is how I'd get out of trouble. He didn't any second take profit of my situation, unlike some effing moron from MD, USA that I'd throw by the window if he ever came to me again. But oh well, I'll eventually keep those crusty stories for press releases. hehehe. We're now two years later, and I can tell you that thanks to him I'm totally out of trouble, mentally back on track, and I've got one hell of an album coming up. The man has proved me that you could stick to your roots and thoughts yet have a successful career. Out of the thousands of dj's and artists, I've never seen anyone that socially available. I think John himself would avoid those ranking things if he could, but the time has come to show you guys what we all have overlooked the past 6 years, and john is here and acting this way for that reason only. I seriously owe him a lot. I was about to tear my career apart and he saved me.

Glad to hear that everything worked out well for you at the end and we cant wait to hear your new album.

cheers.

Hi John,

For twelve years i have given this scene my full support. From standing outside the clubs at 3AM in cold winter nights handing out flyers to attending gigs whenever and wherever possible and much more. I have seen people with fantastic talent give up because of reasons mentioned by you and i also have examples of people continuing to put in the effort even though they do not have the resources of the big name DJs and labels. In my 'experience' fans will support those who musically satisfy their needs. Everything else is secondary. It was proven so back in 2005 with some of great nights at Viva; Laurent, you were part of one of those nights. Same is being proven nowadays again by Oz and his team at Vola. Such instances of success for fresh sound and new talent can be found in other places as well.

With that being said i will vote for you because i am just as passionate about music as you are. I will however say that i don't think it is going to make much of a difference. If you end up with a number that gets you the corporate recognition then i am afraid that this number is going to also attract the "corporate fans" people who show up at clubs because that�s just how they spend their Saturday nights. They will not have a clue about who is playing, what is being played and these types of fans will increase over time. In my opinion we, the passionate lot, need to understand that we should focus on these corporate fans and bring awareness of our 'passion' to them. How do we bring this awareness? One way of doing so is exactly what you are doing, JOOF Editions night. Another way of doing so is taking fellow artists like Laurent and Christopher under one umbrella and launching a movement to bring this passion to other people. This movement does not require any corporate assistance. I think places like TA, Facebook, Twitter and My Space can do the trick. I am sure people will help seeing that you are leading by example. Look at the responses you are receiving here and what you get on Facebook. I think you should first focus on bringing other artist with your similar passion on board, actually launch a movement and watch the support you get. You will be surprised to see how many people are waiting for someone to take charge and bring the scene out of this corporate shit hole.

Fans who appreciate you, your music and your passion will support you not only with their time and efforts but financially as well. I will do it. Fans will support you once they actually see you bringing the movement and i think that you can start without relying on this Dj poll. John, do not count on this Dj poll to bring the Trance back ... let�s work on plan B. I have some other ideas as well which i will share with you separately. Artists who really want to bring the old days back need to get behind John, and fans who believe that the old days can be brought back need to support all these artists not only by showing up at their gigs but behind the scenes as well whenever possible. Promoters and clubs will follow automatically when they see the movement growing.

Let's work on bringing the passion back into clubs - let�s bring Trance back. Let's bring the change!!!

Cheers,

Tyler.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGrooves Let's work on bringing the passion back into clubs - let�s bring Trance back. Let's bring the change!!!

great post Trancegrooves!
Reading this discussion gives me positive vibes! What John is trying to do is all about our music, real trance music. We need to protect our scene, preserving it from disappearing. Giving back the name "trance" to where and to who it belongs.
Maybe we can even open eyes of the big ones, who we helped to grow up because they played fantastic trance. But who nowadays abuse the name trance...

John, I support your plan! We need a forum, and this may be the right way to do it!

Indeed, you have to find support from other producers/DJs thinking the same way. Like Airwave does. The ones who are reading here, please reply!

Yeah, this thread has evolved in a really interesting fashion. I didn't expect so much intelligent discussion. Truth be told - I wasn't planning on voting this year. I didn't really see the point in it. I'll go ahead and vote anyway, based on the best parties I've been to over the past year.

1. J00F (haven't seen him in ~14 months but it was great and this thread is working for me)
2. Hawtin (my first time seeing him...was transcendent)
3. Sasha
4. Eelke Kleijn (haven't had a chance to see him play yet. Productions are magic, though)
5. Schulz (I almost always have fun at his parties, and I refuse to believe his whole attitude is just a marketing gimmick. I still think his heart is in the right place. He comes off as a genuinely nice guy, and always seems to have time for his fans.)

quote:

Originally posted by tranceraverla I loved his tune JAWA. With that said, J00F needs to lighten up a bit. Negativity doesn't have a place in this highly competitive scene. I advise choosing positive vibes and a bright outlook. If J00F really doesn't like the DJ Mag poll he should just not talk about it at all. He's giving it credit by blasting its name out there and coming off as a very jealous DJ. Not good when you want to attract more fans. That's my two cents.

To know what is wrong is what makes us better.

JOOF came and conquered Melbourne with his JOOF Editions on friday night, he had the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Was such an amazing night he played 4+hrs
It's a shame the scene has reduced dj's to playing 1 hr sets (in order to get more ppl on the lineup). I am so sick of waiting for an international to come down here and only get to see them play for an hour. I see it as a waste of their time to travel 24+ hrs for that. The scene needs longer sets to showcase what the dj can do, i believe this skill has been lost in the newer generation of dj's.
I also applaud the promoters who backed JOOF and his vision.

Closing track was a killer

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGrooves ] Let's work on bringing the passion back into clubs - let�s bring Trance back. Let's bring the change!!! Cheers, Tyler.

+100

LETS BRING TRANCE BACK. LETS BRING THE CHANGE!!!!

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