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-- Man With No Name Essential Mix from 1998
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Don't drag me into this! I really was talking out of my arse, and there's really no way I'd make it to this event either way, so yeah.

And I live in AMERICA. Superclubs don't exist here outside of New York and... Miami?

I'D PLUR SO HARD, IT'S ALL NEW TO ME.

GATECRASHER

I've seen Human Traffic. Does that give me any sweet Euro clubbing cred??

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Originally posted by Sand Leaper I didn't say anything about not genuinely loving the music. I'm sure they loved the music. What I said was that people going to a big brand name club like Cream most likely weren't the kind of people who'd be big enough trainspotters to recognize a psy/goa act that Oakenfold supported about 10 years later. They would have been too caught up with the other aspects the brand was offering at the time for that. Teleport, based mainly on the times it has been re-released and how many trance TLs I've seen it on compared to the other Fluoro-singles.

Please tell me how many genuine Goa / psy trance dj's / producers were/have made an appeareance at creamfields, tribal gathering , godskitchen global gathering , homelands ...


And when Oakenfold was resident how still got booked ..

K, hope to see you there

edit; wow I was drunk last night.

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Originally posted by colin traveller Please tell me how many genuine Goa / psy trance dj's / producers were/have made an appeareance at creamfields, tribal gathering , godskitchen global gathering , homelands ... And when Oakenfold was resident how still got booked ..

Sigh. This is an utterly pointless debate in this thread, as from what SYS-J said, having relatively unknown names on the lineup clearly doesn't affect the ability of the event to draw. But anyways...

Did MWNN headline any of those shows? Was he a huge star that drew people to the event on the level that, say, Oakenfold and Carl Cox did for Cream? Does he have any big hits that even come close to the house and trance tracks that were big during that time? Is he the same kind of instantly recognizable name for that crowd? I very much doubt it.

Signing to Fluoro and working with Oakenfold certainly gave him a much greater presence and crossover appeal (as evidenced by him getting an Essential Mix), but it's still miles away from the names that made Cream what it was and the tunes that were big in that process, as MWNN was and still is a psy/goa act confined to that niche. That he needed Oakenfold's residency as a connection to get booked for Cream, as you say, only further underlines this.

Now, if you, SYS-J or anyone else wants to keep debating these points I've made, I suggest making another thread or PMing me, so that this thread doesn't get totally derailed from talking about the actual event in question here.

OK guys, so let's get back on track...

For me the best lineup so far. Gonna be making the journey up the M6 for this one :-)

listened to this today and..

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Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7 This is actually brilliant.

Why did this thread descend into farce when there are far more important things to discuss

Like this ->

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Originally posted by THE_Chris 03. Michael Kohlbecker - Cadillac (08:24) Does ANYONE know where to get this from? According to all the tracklists, it was released on Qube, but I cant find it anywhere. I asked Michael about it, he said it got a very limited release on BMG in Germany, but there is absolutely no information about it anywhere, nor have I ever seen it for sale. Its also not on Discogs. Does anyone have information at all?

I agree Chris. This track is banging and deserves to be found!
:-)

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Any other TAs going to the next Cream Reunion? MWNN is playing, along with Tilt live and Quivver. I had to miss the last one, but I'll walk through brick walls to make it this time.

I'm in like Flynn :-)

Only just seen this! Without wanting to get involved or start it up again I've got to pull Sand Leaper up on a couple of things particularly as I suspect you never went to Cream in that era so I'll give you an insight.

Have you seen the weekly lineups from Cream around 96-2000? The crowd were as knowledgeable as anywhere in the country, it was all about finding out what the new record Oakey played that week was and pestering 3beat records every day until they had it.
The likes of MWNN, TILT, Slacker, Amoeba Assassin, Salt Tank have all performed in the Courtyard alongside Oakey, Sasha, Digweed and even LTJ Bukem and the Chemical Brothers. Yes we know it was Oakey that crossed the psy sound over but Cream loved it or he wouldn't have hammered it towards the end of his sets for 4 or 5 years. Sadly before my time but he played his goa mix that he did in 94 in the Annexe. Cream was a club he knew he could do that.

Yes the Main Room could be commercial particularly in the mid 90's handbag era though Nick Warren then became resident in there in 97, and ok you'd have people in there just to say they had been to Cream but not the Annexe and Courtyard, that was special and people travelled the country to be a part of that.

Of course TILT aren't going to be playing their new/ more recent stuff, they understand what the night is about!

The night is aimed at over 25's purely because its a reunion and they are the people that used to go and we stated that on the tickets for the first one to prevent any of the current cream 18-21 afrojack idiots going. That worked but we then had inquiries from those that were younger brothers/sisters or just loved the music and we didn't want to discriminate them so it is over 18's but having looked at ticket sales nearly everyone has been over 25 so it suits everyone.

Be cool to see a few of you come down, the last 2 haven't disappointed as any that went would tell you and I think this has the best lineup of the 3.

Oh sh ...when they dropped: Three Drives on A vinyl - Greece 2000 (Man With No Name remix) in the mix... fucking wowed
The mix itself is a win and made of awesome.These guys never fail to deliver.

Man With No Name - Teleport, holly fucking shit I get goosebumps every time hear this classic .The tune is amped.

bump

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Originally posted by AdagioforString These guys never fail to deliver.

Man With No Name is Martin Freeman, one guy (Man).

Michael Kohlbecker - Cadillac [Qube]

I've checked the label, but there is no release of this track. None that I could see.

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Originally posted by Redd Man With No Name is Martin Freeman, one guy (Man).

Didn't they used to be a guy and a girl?

Just felt I'd give this brilliant set a nice christmas bump. It never gets old.

Oh and btw. I already identified the third track for Chris but for the rest of you it's Magnat - Liberate.

Just read through this again. I did go to that Cream Reunion and Sand Leaper was spectacularly wrong on every point he made. Nobody played any new tracks at all (pretty sure that hasn't happened at a single CR event yet by any DJ), and half the club stayed until 5am to hear MWNN finish his set. The CR group on Facebook has about 2,500 members and the music discussions on there show a huge level of knowledge for the music of that era.

People love to be revisionist in their cynicism towards '90s superclub culture but the simple fact is that Cream attracted a rabid fanbase who loved the music and still do.

This old chestnut again? Alright, since this is an old thread, I guess rehashing some of my arguments wouldn't hurt too much.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Nobody played any new tracks at all (pretty sure that hasn't happened at a single CR event yet by any DJ), and half the club stayed until 5am to hear MWNN finish his set. The CR group on Facebook has about 2,500 members and the music discussions on there show a huge level of knowledge for the music of that era. People love to be revisionist in their cynicism towards '90s superclub culture but the simple fact is that Cream attracted a rabid fanbase who loved the music and still do.

At no point did I ever claim that people who went to Cream were not passionate and knowledgeable about the music. My claim was that these people were in the minority compared to the masses of people who were drawn to Cream because of its reputation as a superclubbing brand. That the guys who were booked didn't play any new tracks, or that a Facebook group containing a small group of the brand's total base of punters is discerning towards the retro aspect of this event does not prove this claim wrong in the slightest.

Regarding my other claim, namely that the event could possibly not turn out as oldschool-centred as promised due to point I made above and the artistic circumstances, I already conceded that this would not be a problem in practice due to the information that came to light in this thread from the promoter. Indeed, I'm happy the event turned out to be an old school success. However, this does not change that I was justified in being skeptical, considering the examples of "old school" being thrown to the wayside that I brought up alongside said skepticism.

You weren't justified in being skeptical because you jumped to a negative conclusion and argued it across several pages without doing a modicum of research that would have invalidated your arguments before you'd even made them. The assumptions you jumped to showcased a dismissive attitude towards Cream and its punters, towards the promoters and towards the DJs being booked, who were respectively assumed to be clueless or self-aggrandising. I know perfectly well that Cream had a large percentage of tourists and trendsters, just as Fabric, Berghain, Womb and every other world famous club does today. But that doesn't mean you were in any way correct to take such a negative angle, or to claim my "arguments reek of prog trance fanboyism of the highest order" for not agreeing with your spring-loaded cynicism.

And just for clarity regarding these examples of old-skool being thrown by the wayside... setting aside a Photek set you heard on the radio once, can you please list the retro-themed events you've actually attended that featured DJings playing modern material in a display of self-promotion? All the ones I've been to, such as Future/Past or Shine in Leeds or Plasma Future in Manchester, have always featured DJs who completely understood the concept and were happy to relive halcyon days, as well as knowledgeable and passionate crowds who could trainspot the majority of the records being played.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The assumptions you jumped to showcased a dismissive attitude towards Cream and its punters, towards the promoters and towards the DJs being booked, who were respectively assumed to be clueless or self-aggrandising. I know perfectly well that Cream had a large percentage of tourists and trendsters, just as Fabric, Berghain, Womb and every other world famous club does today. But that doesn't mean you were in any way correct to take such a negative angle, or to claim my "arguments reek of prog trance fanboyism of the highest order" for not agreeing with your spring-loaded cynicism.

First and foremost, I never decidedly said that the event would indeed turn out in the way I had described. It was a concern that I had, based on previous experiences with retro themed sets. Once the info from the promoter came to light, I happily conceded that there was no reason to be concerned. The "fanboyism" bit stemmed from your refusal to acknowledge that artists could think of using Cream's brand name as a marketing advantage at a gig with its name attached to it.

Furthermore, my argument was that because people at Cream were more concerned with being clubbers than trainspotters, the artists booked at a revival gig for Cream could easily play new material, since the brand Cream itself and being associated with it is a big enough draw. That doesn't mean I am dismissing the club's punters just because they weren't as concerned with the music being played at the time. YOU are the one jumping to that conclusion, because you're used to judging clubbers on the basis of their music knowledge.

I also find it funny that you accuse me of being dismissive or viewing Cream's punters as "clueless", and then in the same breath generalise swathes of people at some of the most famous clubs in the world as "tourists". And I'M supposed to be the one who's cynical here?

quote:

And just for clarity regarding these examples of old-skool being thrown by the wayside... setting aside a Photek set you heard on the radio once, can you please list the retro-themed events you've actually attended that featured DJings playing modern material in a display of self-promotion? All the ones I've been to, such as Future/Past or Shine in Leeds or Plasma Future in Manchester, have always featured DJs who completely understood the concept and were happy to relive halcyon days, as well as knowledgeable and passionate crowds who could trainspot the majority of the records being played.

I can't say it has really happened at the retro events I've been to. They were all small events put on by local DJs without PR-related or artistic concerns. However, I don't see whether me acually having attended such an event or not changes anything about the points I made regarding these concerns and how they affect the music performed by artists at such an event. Just because the retro events I've been to thus far were organised by people who are passionate enough about dance music (and the artists involved in them respected this) does not mean they will all be. So, if that Photek occasion I mentioned and other examples from other sets isn't sufficient evidence for you to not brand me as overly cynical, I can live with that.

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Furthermore, my argument was that because people at Cream were more concerned with being clubbers than trainspotters, the artists booked at a revival gig for Cream could easily play new material, since the brand Cream itself and being associated with it is a big enough draw.

No it wasn't. You made a completely separate argument that MWNN wouldn't be a draw because not enough people who went to Cream were knowledgeable enough to remember him this far down the line:

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I also have my doubts towards how much a draw MWNN really will be outside of the goa/psy trance crowd. He hasn't released anything since 2003, and it's been even longer than that since Oakenphant consistently pushed any of his stuff to the more mainstream crowd.

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The point is that Cream was/is a superclub juggernaut where the music itself wasn't the focus. People went to Cream because it had a recognizable brand name. It had all the biggest superstar DJs, sold the VIP-packages, had TV and radio ads, sold compilations with Cream in big letters stamped on them etc. etc. Do you really think a goa/psy trance act like MWNN, who at best had one big tune, is going to be a familiar enough name for these people to draw?

Quite simply, utter tosh.

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I also find it funny that you accuse me of being dismissive or viewing Cream's punters as "clueless", and then in the same breath generalise swathes of people at some of the most famous clubs in the world as "tourists". And I'M supposed to be the one who's cynical here?

I've no problem with accurate, measured cynicism, but rather this rushed cynicism where negative assumptions are jumped to far too quickly with far too little consultation of the available information and can easily be quashed (as yours were). All famous superclubs have tourists. You, however, seemed to think Cream had such a large quotient of them that a retro reunion night wouldn't be able to muster a crowd of people who would recognise Man With No Name. There's a difference between a realistic piece of cynicism (world-famous superclubs attract people who just want to experience them, without any real knowledge of the music being played) and wildly over-the-top negativity.

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Originally posted by Sand Leaper However, I don't see whether me acually having attended such an event or not changes anything about the points I made regarding these concerns and how they affect the music performed by artists at such an event.

Because you're talking about a body of evidence to give precedence to cynical assumptions but you only cite one single example which wasn't even from an actual event, it was a radio broadcast. I don't think I need to delineate why the two are very different propositions when it comes to self-promotion. I'm also curious because while you're usually insightful and on-point, your more incongruously outlandish and inaccurate proclamations tend to be directed at things where you have no first-hand experience; clubs you've never been to and DJs you've never seen live.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No it wasn't. You made a completely separate argument that MWNN wouldn't be a draw because not enough people who went to Cream were knowledgeable enough to remember him this far down the line: All famous superclubs have tourists. You, however, seemed to think Cream had such a large quotient of them that a retro reunion night wouldn't be able to muster a crowd of people who would recognise Man With No Name. There's a difference between a realistic piece of cynicism (world-famous superclubs attract people who just want to experience them, without any real knowledge of the music being played) and wildly over-the-top negativity.

Yes, that was another argument I made. If you can somehow prove that MWNN being on the bill was what made the reunion event successful, not the Cream brand and the associated nostalgia, then yes, you'd be right in calling me out on misjudging the overall knowledge of Cream's patrons. The event being successful in and of itself does not prove that, though. I also disagree that arguing for the existence of these "tourists", as you call them, is somehow cynical by default. It's only cynical once you regard these people with disdain for not being as involved with the music. I don't.

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Because you're talking about a body of evidence to give precedence to cynical assumptions but you only cite one single example which wasn't even from an actual event, it was a radio broadcast. I don't think I need to delineate why the two are very different propositions when it comes to self-promotion.

The importance of self-promotion isn't necessarily the only cause for old school going by the wayside. The Photek occasion I mentioned might just as well have been due to a miscommunication with his management, for instance, something that can easily happen when booking a live performance as well. Another issue could be that artists do not like to focus squarely on the past, which is why they play remakes, new remixes of classics, tracks from artists known by their past hits etc. to indicate that they are looking forward.

To sum up, there are several variables outside of the actual club that could potentially make retro themed nights turn out not quite as retro, and that was the concern that I was trying to voice. I did not assume that the Cream reunion would turn out that way, and it's getting tiring to point this out. You're being far too defensive about these events, and reading far too much negativity into my words.

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I'm also curious because while you're usually insightful and on-point, your more incongruously outlandish and inaccurate proclamations tend to be directed at things where you have no first-hand experience; clubs you've never been to and DJs you've never seen live.

It's flattering that you are so interested in my thinking regarding electronic music and consider me insightful. However, what you're asking would be a rather self-centered debate to have in a public thread discussing MWNN's Essential Mix. If you really are that interested in discussing my personal way of thinking regarding electronic music, I suggest you PM me with these "incongrously outlandish and inaccurate proclamations" you're talking about, and take it from there.

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