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-- RE: Silk Road
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Originally posted by Meat187 You're mixing up quite a lot of things there. First, these mechanisms and central authorities can equally fuck things up. See the current Euro crises. Of course a 13 word statement is simplified, but we've seen enough currencies going down in history to know that it's very true.

The current euro crisis is due, in part, to it acting like the gold standard, where differing monetary policies cannot be taken due to the euro central bank�s �standard�. One in all in, as it were. But I agree, central authorities can fuck things up, but the point is they attempt to avoid it. a market determined solely by user use does not have such protections and their history of failure is long and glorious (19th C banking panics in the US being prime examples).

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Originally posted by Meat187 Second, Bitcoin is a replacement for hard cash, not banks or credit cards, so comparisons with those make no sense.

How can it be a replacement for hard cash? It can�t buy anything and it only becomes worth something when it is exchanged for this �hard cash�.

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Originally posted by Meat187 Theoretically, institutions like that could exist for Bitcoin. You're right about its current state and capabilities. What I'm saying that it can either way from now, either becoming completely worthless or establishing itself more (as I said, imagine Amazon starts accepting it).

But why would someone like amazon start accepting them? there is literally no advantage to a legit business. The currency isn�t stable, it is not insured, there isn�t nearly enough market to justify the hassles, it offers literally nothing that current payment options cannot.

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Originally posted by Taipan Nope. When bad things happen to the dollar i.e it devalues - that would make paying for those debts, goods and services cheaper and easier. Therefore the government has less reason to protect it.

Incorrect. Firstly, central banks around the world routinely step in to buy their currency in order to maintain a certain value and prevent price instability. Bitcoin for instance dropped ~90% in a matter of weeks. No central bank would find this tolerable. Secondly, many of those goods and/or services become more expensive, if they are associated some way with foreign currencies (ie that circuit board or food stuff is imported). You are right though, debts held in that currency become relatively less expensive, but that primarily affects the bond holder, not the borrower. The borrower is only really advantaged when the devaluation is achieved by printing more money (ie they have more dollars to use to pay the debt). This is called �inflating out of debt�.

Of course there are very real benefits to a cheaper country (cheaper exports for one) but this doesn�t hold for something like bitcoin which is far more a speculative investment than a real currency. Since nobody is exporting in bitcoins, it doesn�t benefit from being devalued.

I think too many bitcoin people read Cryptonomicon and thought it was some sort of guide.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Incorrect. Firstly, central banks around the world routinely step in to buy their currency in order to maintain a certain value and prevent price instability. Bitcoin for instance dropped ~90% in a matter of weeks. No central bank would find this tolerable.

This might seem like a stupid question but I sincerely want to know: What motive do banks have to maintain the value of their currency.

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Originally posted by Taipan This might seem like a stupid question but I sincerely want to know: What motive do banks have to maintain the value of their currency.

If we�re talking about central banks, then the motivation is to support a stable economy, stable & predictable prices. Ie to provide a stable basis upon which the economy can function.

If we�re talking about commercial banks, then their interest in maintaining the value of a currency is that the value of their loan assets is undermined by inflation. Ie a bank makes a profit by charging interest at, say 5%. If inflation is at 3% then they�re only making a real 2% profit. Basically inflation or devaluation makes debts cheaper, at the expense of the lender. Of course it must be noted that commercial banks are not related to monetary policy in this context.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN

I don't really get what you're trying to say here, besides making simplistic and somewhat contradictory statements like "It's not worth anything, you can only exchange them for money" and pointless comparisons with features and institutions Bitcoin was never intended to have.

you're not exactly giving me much to go on, meat. unless you refer to something specifically i am unable to respond properly. anyway...

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Originally posted by Meat187 I don't really get what you're trying to say here, besides making simplistic and somewhat contradictory statements like "It's not worth anything, you can only exchange them for money"

it's "not worth anything" as a currency because it can't buy anything. im sure you'll agree that's a fundamental aspect of any currency. sure, some idiot online might be willing to pay you USD in exchange for your bitcoins, so what? why didn't you just keep the USD you spent on bitcoins in the first place? yes, you can speculate if that's your thing, but there are literally bajillions of better risks than bitcoin (and you're unlikely to be robbed in the night by hackers while doing so).

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Originally posted by Meat187 and pointless comparisons with features and institutions Bitcoin was never intended to have.

you specifically asked me why i consider bitcoin to be worthless as an alternative currency and i think i provided many reasonable points. if you have a problem with them then feel free to elaborate, but the point is, these "features" and "institutions" are what make currencies work, and the lackthereof is why bitcoin will not.

you specifically mentioned amazon, and i directly asked you what they would have to gain. feel free to answer on point some time this discussion.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you specifically mentioned amazon, and i directly asked you what they would have to gain.

Today: none. Someday: meeting the demand from many customers to pay in that currency.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you're not exactly giving me much to go on, meat. unless you refer to something specifically i am unable to respond properly.

I'm trying to find out why to respond, even though most points have been agreed upon and others are opinion and speculations about the future. I guess it's either trying to pretend your opinion is a fact or plainly trying to have the last word.

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Originally posted by Meat187 Today: none. Someday: meeting the demand from many customers to pay in that currency.

how will there be "many" customers when the currency has an absolute limit in terms of units? it literally can't grow beyond a certain size. what then? either you're stuck at the limit or you change the code to allow for more bitcoins (i hope i don't have to explain the hilarity of this notion to you).

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Originally posted by Meat187 I'm trying to find out why to respond, even though most points have been agreed upon and others are opinion and speculations about the future.

see all you've done is quote my name and provided a blurb of your own, i honestly don't know what you agree or disagree with. yeah yeah, i know you dont do the "internet argument" thing and that's fine but i aint no mind reader either.

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Originally posted by Meat187 I guess it's either trying to pretend your opinion is a fact or plainly trying to have the last word.

i (obviously) think my opinion is more or less accurate and ive provided several examples and explanations and a reasonable source to support that opinion. if you ever bothered to provide an alternative position i might at least hear something new re bitcoins or be forced to reconsider my loathing. but you give me nothing, meat.

don't care about having the last word (he says having the last word). i just rate your opinion to a certain degree and would like to be shown your dizzying intellect just once. or, i would like to stomp you into the dirt for being caught up with nonsense when you should really know better.

either is good.

sushi likes the balls.

Lol, fuck off.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Lol, fuck off.

did my ~5am text wake you up at all the other week? i really hope so.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN did my ~5am text wake you up at all the other week? i really hope so.

Phone stays in the office room charging overnight, didn't hear shit

Azzhole.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how will there be "many" customers when the currency has an absolute limit in terms of units? it literally can't grow beyond a certain size. what then? either you're stuck at the limit or you change the code to allow for more bitcoins.

See, this is the problem. I'm inclined to agree with you and there would be nothing to talk about, but then you say something like that, which is really simplistic. I'm not even sure you are aware that Bitcoins can be divided, currently with 8 digit accuracy. And that can be increased, if needed. So there's no inherent limit to the number of customers. The real issue is that in such a case a huge deflation would have taken place. Today currencies have a built-in inflation, Bitcoin has a built-in deflation. Is that a bad thing? I frankly don't know. But I like the fact that such an alternative exists.

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Originally posted by Meat187 See, this is the problem. I'm inclined to agree with you and there would be nothing to talk about, but then you say something like that, which is really simplistic. I'm not even sure you are aware that Bitcoins can be divided, currently with 8 digit accuracy. And that can be increased, if needed. So there's no inherent limit to the number of customers.

what do you mean by divided? that 1 bitcoin can become 1/2s or that 1 can become 2? if the latter than i do admit that's not how i thought bitcoin worked. if the former then i don't really see the practical applications (do we bother dividing cents at the store?) unless each bitcoin is worth a small fortune. is there a limit of ~20M whole bitcoins?

but sure, if you can divide bitcoins into tiny pieces, and those tiny pieces could buy stuff, then i guess it wouldn't be as bad as all that. im not a math star but i think the required worth of each single unit would be unrealistically high.

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Originally posted by Meat187 The real issue is that in such a case a huge deflation would have taken place. Today currencies have a built-in inflation, Bitcoin has a built-in deflation. Is that a bad thing? I frankly don't know. But I like the fact that such an alternative exists.

periods of deflation have tended to be pretty ordinary (great depression, GFC...19th C depression?). not sure what that means for bitcoin though; i would suspect it would create hoarders but that could just be me. thanks for putting a view across

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what do you mean by divided? that 1 bitcoin can become 1/2s or that 1 can become 2? if the latter than i do admit that's not how i thought bitcoin worked. if the former then i don't really see the practical applications (do we bother dividing cents at the store?) unless each bitcoin is worth a small fortune. is there a limit of ~20M whole bitcoins? but sure, if you can divide bitcoins into tiny pieces, and those tiny pieces could buy stuff, then i guess it wouldn't be as bad as all that. im not a math star but i think the required worth of each single unit would be unrealistically high.

Yeah, there is a limit to the amount of whole bitcoin units. Currently the smallest subunit is 0.00000001 bitcoins, which is of course pointless now since only two digits make sense. The concept is that one whole bitcoin will indeed be worth a small fortune and thus the smaller subunits will become relevant. Again, it's a different approach but I don't think the limited amount itself is a problem.
The only thing I'm opposing here is when you say the whole thing is worthless and has no merit. I'm not saying the opposite is true, I'm saying I don't know and don't think one can know for sure at this point.
Still, I like the sheer existence of such a different model. Because fuck you, central banks and governments. And I like that it enables things like Silk Road. Because fuck you, law.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN .. it's "not worth anything" as a currency because it can't buy anything.

You can buy dollars. If that's not enough, then tell me, what can you buy with gold these days? Does that mean Gold is worthless?

quote:

Originally posted by Meat187 The only thing I'm opposing here is when you say the whole thing is worthless and has no merit. I'm not saying the opposite is true, I'm saying I don't know and don't think one can know for sure at this point. Still, I like the sheer existence of such a different model. Because fuck you, central banks and governments. And I like that it enables things like Silk Road. Because fuck you, law.

haha yeah that's all fair enough. im probably a bit sour from all the rabid libertarians that have big gay hard-ons for bitcoin.

quote:

Originally posted by Taipan You can buy dollars.

if you can't buy anything else with it then it isn't a currency, by definition. if you wanna tie your PC up constantly you can mine it for mediocre profit, but why would i, John Consumer, be interested (junkies and kiddy fuckeers notwithstanding) in using it instead of whatever real currencies i currently have available?

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Originally posted by Taipan If that's not enough, then tell me, what can you buy with gold these days? Does that mean Gold is worthless?

gold is indeed worthless as a currency. we could argue it's a hedge against inflation or whatever but you can't buy shit with it and bitcoin is attempting to be a currency free from The Man.

we'll ignore the fact that gold at least has some industrial uses, which means it would always be worth something. bitcoin lost 90% of its value in a matter of weeks. why are we talking about how "valuable" it is? people are willing to pay for it because of drugs and other illicit activities. that's where its worth is derived. it will never compete with a national/regional standard. well, in zimbabwe maybe.

so all you libertard crybabies can jerk off to it all you want and it will never be more than a passing fad for addicts and pederasts.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so all you libertard crybabies can jerk off to it all you want and it will never be more than a passing fad for addicts and pederasts.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im probably a bit sour from all the rabid libertarians that have big gay hard-ons for bitcoin.

Probably.

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Price of Bitcoin Continues to Plummet, Falls Below Price of Mining for Them Bitcoin is a weird thing. While many would argue that currency itself is arbitrary, Bitcoin is a virtual currency backed by tangible currency. One benefit of Bitcoin is that it is pretty much untraceable, allowing people to buy nefarious items across the Internet � generally drugs. Another benefit of Bitcoin, one that some will speculate doomed the currency to fail from its inception, is that it is able to be generated for what many people would claim is free, as the only real costs involved are the electricity spent on the computing power being used to mine for said coins. Well, those doomsayers will be happy to know that the price of Bitcoin has been falling for some time, and has now fallen further than the actual price to mine for some. The worth drops around one dollar every week or so. At least one Reddit user is speculating that one Bitcoin will be worth one USD sometime soon, effectively making Bitcoin worthless � not in that one USD is worthless, but in that one can simply use USD to pay for things instead of go through the process of obtaining Bitcoins.

http://www.geekosystem.com/price-bi...s-below-mining/

not worthless though man! I can trade $2 of electricity for $1 in bitcoin. Bargain!

lol. Whoopsie!

"at least one reddit user is speculating that..."

wow. great reporting.
LOL

At least one man. At least

Well, we could always pay attention to the near 7 billion people who aren�t buying them. but where�s the fun in that?

OK, so speaking of the "deep web," has anyone else had success with SR?

I know I dished out a ton of advice to a bunch of people about how to use it.

Reflecting back on it, I can't believe this worked more than once for me. Wtf world.

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