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-- Psyshell - 4am in Healesville [Forest Darkpsy for Forest Elves]
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quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell ...when it's in reply to some really stupid crap as seen in this thread and the last one I tend to not care too much about quality.

It's not anyone else's fault but your own and 99% of the "stupid crap" is yours, to begin with. Instead of assuming responsibility for the mess, you externalize it. You rationalize your own decisions with fictitious fault finding. You contrive motivations, such as biased subjectivity, when your critics are plainly being objective. No matter how wrong you are - and you are very, very, wrong - you waste a herculean amount of energy just to assert that you're right and, in so doing, you have made a complete fool of yourself.

Setting aside any debate about the quality of the tracks, your mix is extremely half-arsed. It's way too short and most of the tracks came from one compilation, which clearly says you didn't search very hard for tracks. You openly admit that you had a few goes at it, kept fucking up so just put out the best of a flawed bunch of drafts. It's full of mixing errors and bad decisions because hardly any time went into it. You start off by saying it's your first mix in three years, so it's not like you're a skilled and practised DJ who can just play a great set on the fly.

I don't see the point in putting it out, and please save me a rambling response to the effect of "Yeah I probably should have done more drafts but I have ADHD and whatever, so I released it anyway". The standard of DJing in this sub-forum is generally very, very high, and your amateurish effort is never going to receive more than extremely qualified praise at most. All you could realistically expect was technical feedback on where you went wrong, and when Ziptnf did that in patient detail, you came up with a bunch of fragmentary paranoid nonsense in response. Again, you have this bizarre propensity for doublethink. You know the mix is flawed because you said so, but you're in massive denial when someone points out exactly where you need to improve? Stop taking acid, it's doing bad things to you.

The main thing that has changed my attitude with mixes is putting them out from the perspective of a party attendent rather than simply staying at home listening to music and never going out. Absolutely I need to improve and an overall good post.

What things am I in denial about in terms of where ziptnf said I need to improve? If you're talking about track selection, well most of the tracks contained within his mixes I find pretty boring so it's a pretty reasonable assumption that's what's going on when he listens to mine. I absolutely need to improve in terms of flow and mixing ability; but that still doesn't change the fact that darkpsy (IMO) isn't meant to be as smooth a journey as full on, which is where that argument started. Now that said, if someone posts a darkpsy set that has a flow I like a lot (e.g. cybernetika warpcore 3) then I'll be happy to back down and follow some it's technique. As far as I've heard ziptnf treats darkpsy exactly like full on and that's not the type of set I'm going for flow/transitions wise.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker You contrive motivations, such as biased subjectivity, when your critics are plainly being objective.

This is music we're talking about, it's not as simple as being "plainly objective". Most of your post is probably at least partially true however. That said, there were some bullshit posts that essentially amounted to "pick better music next time" which no one else here seems to recognise.

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell I absolutely need to improve in terms of flow and mixing ability; but that still doesn't change the fact that darkpsy (IMO) isn't meant to be as smooth a journey as full on, which is where that argument started.

Again. "I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to argue every point down to the bone". If you know your mixing and flow need work, at least respect the opinion of someone who provides careful feedback about them. Nobody is ever going to agree with you 100% about how your set should sound. As you've just said, music is subjective, and every listener will have slightly different ideas. So instead of starting a massive quote-fest argument just because Ziptnf's ideas about how darkpsy should be DJed are different to yours, just take it as his subjective opinion, coming from a different sub-sub-genre of psy, or whatever esoteric justification you're using to shield yourself from criticism.

Basically, I agree.

That said... lets put the situation into the abstract to make it a bit easier. Lets assume I'm a techno dj. I post a techno set and a trance dj comes along and posts all these house music mixing techniques and how what I'm doing with mixing techno is all wrong. I look at the trance dj's sets and i see that he hasn't made many techno sets. When I listen to the one's he does have, I can see that they're mixed in a very trance style and focus on the melody but ignore the rythmn. Said trance dj also tells me how he's actually both the king of unicorns and run down factories and has over 1000 hours of techno listening experience.

In that situation what am I supposed to do that doesn't involve said trance dj accusing me of arrogance?

I would say, as an inexperienced techno DJ who's not put much effort into his set and has openly admitted it's flawed, you should probably be shutting your mouth and doing your best to improve before you tell someone else they don't know what they're talking about.

Well in that, I disagree. The differences are more complicated than that. I may be an inexperienced dj but I am an experienced set listener with the genre. I also believe the other person doesn't understand it. The fact they seem not to like it and have hardly any mixes that even qualify as remotely similar adds weight to that assumption of mine. I mean at the end of the day, it's not a matter of there being 10 "techno" djs here; there's about 3 people who regularly post (and I use that very term loosely) that even have any experience with the genre. With the main one of those 3 mostly having experience with "trance" and with a bunch of "house" djs calling me arrogant for not respecting the "trance" dj's opinion on a genre he has very limited experience with.

Now, regardless of what anyone says, I'm going to keep posting mixes of genres I enjoy (with very occasionally some genres other people may request) and hopefully I'm going to take in some criticism from this mix. It is indeed a bit rushed, but I have a bit of a problem with finishing things and delaying things so I figured release+feedback was the best option after I'd redone it about 3 times (and then it took another 4 to do it without too many mistakes). Hopefully both my technique and track selection will improve over the next 1-5 mixes. If not, feel free to point it out.

Also, please bear in mind, I have two distinct problems with two distinct posters in both threads. One thinks he knows everything about the genre when honestly if I was to measure it I would say that's not true. The other one simply gave me a detailed analysis after he said he didn't like the component tracks. Which I said was a bit useless. I probably shouldn't have reacted the way I did to the second poster but still, that's cleared up and resolved now.

p.s. The problems with my posts can be summed up nicely. Poor grammar & flow. I can fix that easily by practicing writing well. I'm no where near as confusing in an instant messaging or IRL convo. I just haven't done anything academic (outside of programming and setting up computers) in a few years. Mixing up how things are coded in Lua with English grammar certainly doesn't help post readability either.

Remarkable.

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell

Dude, no one cares how you rationalize any of this. You obviously don't handle criticism well and your butthurt posts are a joke. Shut up, try again. Next time be a good sport.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Dude, no one cares how you rationalize any of this. You obviously don't handle criticism well and your butthurt posts are a joke. Shut up, try again. Next time be a good sport.

You're a joke. Now seriously, unless you listen to this genre or something even remotely related. FUCK OFF. You're just a cor idiot who's decided to jump on the hate bandwagon. This isn't the COR. I'm also not interested in what you think is going on inside my head(at least not in a thread that's in dj promotion). You're not even remotely accurate. System J may be but you're not.

Also, who are you to say no one cares in this thread? You don't listen to anything similar. So contrary to what you've said, I don't care what you have to say, so don't bother saying it. Go find some thread in the CoR to post this crap in please.

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell The fact they seem not to like it and have hardly any mixes that even qualify as remotely similar adds weight to that assumption of mine.

Incredible.

quote:

Also, please bear in mind, I have two distinct problems with two distinct posters in both threads. One thinks he knows everything about the genre when honestly if I was to measure it I would say that's not true.

Holy shit, at what point did I ever say that I knew everything? You fucking prick, don't ever put words in my mouth again. If anything, I'd say that you are the one acting like you know everything, considering that everything I have said in effort to help you has been argued against by you with several walls of text featuring piss-poor rambling accusations and logical fallacies.

You never cease to amaze me with such bold fucking statements. I don't plan on ever wasting my time dealing with you again.

quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf considering that everything I have said in effort to help you has been argued against by you

Do I really need to take 100% of all advice you give? What's wrong with commenting on why I'm not going to in the cases where I'm not?


Here's an idea, if I'm such a prick and I'm "putting words in your mouth" then put me on ignore list or something. Ofcourse you're going to call me a know it all and visa versa. Look at what's been posted to see why.

quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf I don't plan on ever wasting my time dealing with you again.

Good. How come it took this many posts for you to either come to that conclusion or to simply no longer take me seriously? Is changing my opinion to be the same as yours really that important to you?

quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf You never cease to amaze me with such bold fucking statements.

That is actually a problem, because of the tone I use in writing people usually assume that my emotions are a lot more extreme than they are. Usually people assume I'm really angry regardless of what mood I'm in.

Ignore lists are for pussies.

And it's not about changing your opinion, it's about being around to not let someone talk shit about me the way you do. Post as many mixes as you want. This drama can last as long as you want it to

Well, as much as I'm going to disagree with you on why there is/isn't drama. Overall that's fine. On an unrelated note, any new darkpsy mixes coming from you any time soon?

quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf Ignore lists are for pussies.

I don't really use it to ignore people, the "show post anyway" button still gets used a lot. It's more a reminder not to reply to someone's posts who annoys me. I only have dykes on jay on there at the moment. That guy's actually an idiot, I swear you can't even fake that level of annoyingness.

No. Go fuck yourself.

Well, in that case you can come seriously critisize my darkpsy mixes when there's some decent competition (or you know... any competition). I'm all for constructive criticism but getting mad at me when I mention why I'm not going to take all of it is just dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by clay is forest psy trance a new genre i didnt know about?

It's a spin-off from Great Oak Savanna Progressive Trance.

quote:

Originally posted by clay is forest psy trance a new genre i didnt know about?

It's a fairly common (by psy standards) way to describe a certain kind've darkpsy that's more organic sounding. It's generally got more of a horror/fantasy aesthetic rather than more "high tech" sounding darkpsy. I heard the term used on isratrance for a fair bit before I heard about it anywhere else, but it has a subgenre on ektoplazm that you can check out:

http://www.ektoplazm.com/

Downloading 5 albums labelled only "forst psy and darkpsy" and 5 albums labelled only "darkpsy" should illustrate the difference. It's pretty subtle though as mentioned. My quibble with zipntf was more about the difference between full on and darkpsy... which is; much more immedietly obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by clay im more into mountain village house

It sounds silly, but not every genre goes by the "this is normal stuff, this is hard stuff, this is progressive stuff". It depends on the culture of the scene. Unless you're going to go ahead and say there's no difference between for example death metal and black metal either.

Darkpsy itself tends to mean psy that is either harder or darker or both than full on. That said, it's possible to make full on that's harder than darkpsy without it being darkpsy. The best way to explain it would be to show artists that are crossovers between the two in different ways.

Honestly, I'm not that up to date with what I'd give for more recent examples, but speaking about what the differences were in 2005-2009ish

For example:

Bog standard full on:



Slightly darker (in mood) Full on:



Full on structure, darkpsy style:



Another crossover between full on and darkpsy. Sounds more like darkpsy trying to be full on, wheras the previous example is arguably the other way around.



Darkpsy:



More Darkpsy



Some forest dark from then:

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell My quibble with zipntf was more about the difference between full on and darkpsy... which is; much more immedietly obvious.

Except that we never even said anything on the difference between full-on and darkpsy. Seriously, what conversation did you think you were having?

You mentioned your darkpsy set, I said it wasn't even darkpsy. I mean come on, xerox and illumination and the rest of those artists? They may be full on psy that is dark in mood (or twilight or something) but it's not darkpsy.

That kind've music is not similar to ocelot, the nommos, furious, silent horror, kindzadza, penta, attoya, electrypnose, dohm, baphomet engine, psykovsky, enichkin etc because it simply isn't darkpsy.

[edit] It appears I must've looked at the wrong tracklist, you do indeed have some darkpsy sets. I seem to remember not liking them and thinking they had quite bad flow though. Lets just say we both have room for improvement in terms of the flow of darkpsy sets. There's some darkpsy djs out there who have sets that flow extremely well though. As I mentioned, I based the flow mostly on two sets.

I seriously think there is something mentally wrong with you.

1) When I mentioned Radioactive Sound, I only called it a mix with a "hypnotic foresty vibe". I NEVER CALLED IT DARKPSY. EVER. NOT ONCE.

2) I DID show you a darkpsy mix that I've made. Yin's Reign. I believe you've heard of it?

Wouldn't you think I'd know the fucking difference between two mixes in which I've created? Jesus Christ, you're an absolute moron. Where on earth did you come up with me saying these things? That I'm the best psytrance DJ of all time and that Radioactive Sound was darkpsy? Holy shit, dude, you can't even get your gripes with me straight.

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell [edit] It appears I must've looked at the wrong tracklist, you do indeed have some darkpsy sets. I seem to remember not liking them and thinking they had quite bad flow though. Lets just say we both have room for improvement in terms of the flow of darkpsy sets.

Really? You didn't like it? Check the thread again, pal.

quote:

Originally posted by Darkarbiter Suprisingly our taste in darkpsy is a lot closer than in full on. An actually good darkpsy mix, I think this is one of the two I've downloaded (along with cybernetika's warpcore 3) out of like 7.

But yeah, you can change your opinion to fit your narrative if you'd like. I don't give a shit.

Perhaps I misread the bit where you said it had a hypnotic foresty vibe. I assumed you were saying that forest darkpsy didn't exist and that that set was the close to it anyway (which implies it's darkpsy). I didn't check your set archive for the darkpsy section until about 5 minutes ago, I just assumed that radioactive sound was your idea of what forest darkpsy is. Yes that means I've made a mistake. Moving along please.

quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf But yeah, you can change your opinion to fit your narrative if you'd like. I don't give a shit.

Fair call. All I can say is, I do indeed not have memory where I remember comments made 2 years ago accurately. Let alone the fact that, who knows, maybe I liked it one day, but it didn't stand up to listen 2/3 so I decided to leave that comment and move on. I don't remember how much I liked it back then to that level of detail.

Regardless, this still doesn't change the fact that if I want to copy someone's transitions style I'd probably rather go for a more experienced darkpsy dj who specialises in that. While not many darkpsy djs post on this forum, darkpsy mixes are not in short supply on the net at all.

Nah. Not moving on. Going back to Yin's Reign. You say now that you didn't like it and it had a poor flow? Please explain.

I don't remember it directly. I only remember my memory of it from 2 years ago. You've quoted text that directly contradicts my memory of it so perhaps the best thing for me to would be to listen to it again. Also, whether or not I thought the flow was good/ok/bad it doesn't change the fact that I've always consistently thought that if I was going to base a darkpsy mix's flow on anything it'd be cybernetika's warpcore 3. That that mix definitely has the best flow out of anything I've heard darkpsy wise. I realise that's moving the goal posts a bit, but we are argueing about what my opinion was 2+ years ago. I hope you don't expect me to have quite that accurate a memory. I haven't really listened to that set since but perhaps I should 1-3 times over the next few weeks to give a bit of an updated opinion on it at least.

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