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Originally posted by Lews "Innocent" is a bullshit term. This whole situation is fucked up. If it was a clearer issue of black and white, bad and good guys, then yes, we would have a responsibility to step in. That's why we intervened in Libya. Syria is a clusterfuck of good and bad people on both sides, with atrocities committed on both sides. Blaming everything on Assad is completely myopic and idiotic. We have neither the right nor the need nor the desire to intervene and shouldn't. A blind desire to help the "good innocent people" isn't going to make this situation any better.

Exactly my point.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 It's irresponsible to allow a regime which uses chemical weapons against its own citizens to remain in power.

I agree with this BUT you also have to realize that the rebels have also used those weapons against the Syrian regime.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 To make it even more absurd is that Syria is actually a member of the UN. A member of the UNs government is actively using chemical weapons on its own citizens and nobody is doing anything at all about it.

Why do you assume that those weapons were used on the people and not the rebels? The rebels for the most part do not represent the Syrian people and most of them are paid foreign fighters from outside so technically he is not using them against his own people.

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Originally posted by Lews "Innocent" is a bullshit term. This whole situation is fucked up. If it was a clearer issue of black and white, bad and good guys, then yes, we would have a responsibility to step in. That's why we intervened in Libya. Syria is a clusterfuck of good and bad people on both sides, with atrocities committed on both sides. Blaming everything on Assad is completely myopic and idiotic. We have neither the right nor the need nor the desire to intervene and shouldn't. A blind desire to help the "good innocent people" isn't going to make this situation any better.

Sorry, i disagree here. Had assad stepped down early enough we would probably be dealing with a situation similar to what's happening in egypt.. It isn't perfect, but at least you commence some sort of democratic process. The reason why it is a clusterfuck is because Assad attacked his own people from the start, tortured, raped killed abused and so forth; simply to hold onto power (also probably pressure from the russians and hezbollah). They torture people; kill others and make sure some survive so they can tell their family and friends what happens when you opposed the assad regime. The result is desperation, guerrilla warefare, anger, vengance and civil war. There is a reason why magua is angry.

why would the US, which is allied with israel, support the rebels, which in turn is and will endanger israel?


fuck john mccain. is there a war that he does not like?

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Originally posted by Spacey Orange why would the US, which is allied with israel, support the rebels, which in turn is and will endanger israel? fuck john mccain. is there a war that he does not like?

hezbollah is more of a threat to israel than the rebels. Assad regime supports hezbollah.

i understand that. but for the US backing the rebels, Hezbollah might not be joining the fight, and Russia and might not have supplied these anti-aircraft missiles to the Syrian government, which in turn, might fall into Hezbollah's hands and rain on Israel or weaken Israel's ability to maintain a strong offense.

i refuse to believe that the policy wonks and strategists in government are so stupid that they couldn't have foreseen these sequence of events, which leads me to question what is their ultimate goal in this chess match. ultimately this is about something else that's not particularly clear yet.

i was generally uninterested in this topic, but thanks to this thread i'll be keeping a closer eye on this events. i think i may be able to learn something. thanks guys.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit Sorry, i disagree here. Had assad stepped down early enough we would probably be dealing with a situation similar to what's happening in egypt.. It isn't perfect, but at least you commence some sort of democratic process. The reason why it is a clusterfuck is because Assad attacked his own people from the start, tortured, raped killed abused and so forth; simply to hold onto power (also probably pressure from the russians and hezbollah). They torture people; kill others and make sure some survive so they can tell their family and friends what happens when you opposed the assad regime. The result is desperation, guerrilla warefare, anger, vengance and civil war. There is a reason why magua is angry.

Yeah, if he had stepped down. Which didn't happen and clearly wasn't going to happen. Counterfactuals like that are worthless for analyzing a situation.

FREE THE JUICE!

Syria has now launched rocket attacks at Lebanon. Something's got to give soon or else that's going to become a massive regional war.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Something's got to give soon or else that's going to become a massive regional war.

I'm sure some of the main players in this game would want to have total chaos/instability in the region. There is so much happening in that region at the moment. Look at what's happening in Turkey today with their mass protests and then you have the upcoming presidential elections and rest assured that there could be a repeat to what we saw in the 2009 elections..

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Syria has now launched rocket attacks at Lebanon. Something's got to give soon or else that's going to become a massive regional war.

Um, it hasn't been the first time since this conflict started.

This was over a dozen rockets and mortar rounds. Much more than anything we've seen so far.

Pfft, that is nothing of what is to come.

Read this, please: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n11/patric...-of-sykes-picot

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Good news? How so? More bloodshed is good news? Not sure if you were being serious or not.

Certainly good news, and yes, being totally serious. Much as war is abhorrent, Assad is the problem that needs to go, and not because we need to remove dictators, but because he killed his own people, a majority of which wanted him gone.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Those Arabs countries are the same ones funding and arming the so called "opposition" which consists of Al Qaeda fighters.. Those Arab countries could care less about freedom or Democracy inside Syria. Look at how they treat their own people when they try to protest against the regimes. Point is we are being forced into yet another invasion and this time the reason behind is that the Syrian leader is evil and that he must be stopped. Just like how Saddam had WMD's etc. This war is no longer is not longer about the Syrian people.It is about a few super powers flexing their muscles at the cost of the Syrian people..

The massive difference you're missing is that the Syrian people want this - they started an uprising that Assad tried to forcibly crush, and he do so with the same violence his family has used for decades.

If you need to question which side we should be on, then you don;t understand the confilct that is going on in Syria.

This could all end if Assad stood down; there have been multiple offers for his (and the whole Assad family) over the last year for him to have safe exit to a country that would give him residence but he has vehemently declined every single offer, simply because he wants to retain power at any cost, at that cost is now thousands of syrian civilians.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN The massive difference you're missing is that the Syrian people want this - they started an uprising that Assad tried to forcibly crush, and he do so with the same violence his family has used for decades.

No, no, no. A small portion of the Syrian people want Assad out. It is not the majority. The big forces who really want Assad out aren't Syrians.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN If you need to question which side we should be on, then you don;t understand the confilct that is going on in Syria.

Yeah, no. If you think this is an easy choice, you have no idea what's going on.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Certainly good news, and yes, being totally serious. Much as war is abhorrent, Assad is the problem that needs to go, and not because we need to remove dictators, but because he killed his own people, a majority of which wanted him gone.

But you see we also said the same about Iraq and a few other countries too. Is this really about these leaders killing their own people or is there a bigger picture at play? You say that the majority of the people there wanted him gone which is probably true in the beginning but that's not the case now. The people there have seen what these rebels are all about and don't want their country to turn into a shithole filled with wahhabi extremists funded by the Saudi's.

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The massive difference you're missing is that the Syrian people want this - they started an uprising that Assad tried to forcibly crush, and he do so with the same violence his family has used for decades.

You are right that they wanted him out but that was at the beginning but that's not the case now. We have way passed that point and it is not about Assad being a evil dictator. Syria is a warzone and a few super powers are in there for their own agendas.

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If you need to question which side we should be on, then you don;t understand the confilct that is going on in Syria.

Do you honestly believe that Syria will be a better place with these rebel terrorists running around? I hope you do realize that these guys don't give a shit about Syria whatsoever and they are paid to destroy whatever they can.

quote:

This could all end if Assad stood down; there have been multiple offers for his (and the whole Assad family) over the last year for him to have safe exit to a country that would give him residence but he has vehemently declined every single offer, simply because he wants to retain power at any cost, at that cost is now thousands of syrian civilians.

Yes things would have been better if he had just stepped down but no leader would just step down just because he is told to do so.

Reason to get the fuck out of the Middle East #341...

Oh damn,i've lost count

Saw this post on FB the other day and thought I'd share it and see what some of you think?

quote:

Syria In 2 Minutes In response to the Syrian protestors� demands, Bashar Al Assad made a number of concessions some time ago that were neither superficial nor partial. They were everything the opposition seems to have been asking for. First, the Syrian government cancelled the long-standing abridgment of civil liberties that had been authorized by the emergency law enacted subsequent to their technical state of war with Israel. The law gave Damascus powers it needed to safeguard the security of the state in wartime, a measure states at war routinely take. Syrians chaffed under the law and regarded it as unduly restrictive. Bowing to popular pressure, the government lifted the security measures. Second, the government proposed a new constitution to accommodate protestors� demands to strip the Ba�ath Party of its special status as leaders of Syrian society. Additionally, the presidency is now open to anyone meeting basic residency, age and citizenship requirements. Presidential elections would be held by secret vote every seven years under a system in which all people, regardless of race, gender, color or religion, have the right to vote. The Syrian government ALREADY ESTABLISHED the multi-party democracy the opposition was said to have clamored for. A protest movement thirsting for a democratic, pluralist society would accept this offer, its aspirations fulfilled, IF THEY WANTED A DEMOCRACY. The constitution was put to a referendum and approved. New parliamentary multi-party elections were held. Multi-candidate presidential elections were set for 2014. A new democratic dawn had arrived. The rebels could lay down their arms and enjoy the fruits of their victory. NO ONE wants Democracy for Syria. NO ONE Cares for Human Rights in Syria. The US, the UK, France, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and others have now sent lunatic Islamic Fundamentalists (CIA/Al Qaeda) to Syria from over 30 countries to plunder the state. Now you know everything worth knowing about Syria

quote:

Originally posted by Lews No, no, no. A small portion of the Syrian people want Assad out. It is not the majority. The big forces who really want Assad out aren't Syrians.

Please spare me the conspiracy theories and stop reading The Guardian while taking it for gospel.

The stats were 55% wanted Assad. The bit they left off was that the question was essentially: Civil War or Assad.

That means 45% were willing to risk civil war and bloody death to get rid of him.

Regardless, even if a small number of your citizens protest (and let's not forget, that what it was at the beginning) Assad lost the right to govern/rule and any legitimacy as a fit leader when he crushed them with full military force.

You simply cannot deny that, and you cannot knowingly turn your back to those actions. I'm not for world police, but you cannot sit there and watch a leader kill their people because they protest against the regime.

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Originally posted by Lews Yeah, no. If you think this is an easy choice, you have no idea what's going on.

It's not a easy choice. Civil war is horrendous. So is sitting there and letting a dictator use their full military might on their people.

Believe it or not, I completely agree with Srussel on this one, and what NRG2 said; the bottom line remains.

there was a point (and not a small window) where assad had the chance to keep power yet let the people of Syria speak.

He declined. With bullets.

After that, there was a still a point where he could cede some power and allow something of a democratic process to at least begin.

Same answer.

Then civil war broke out. The proxy interests have come later, because frankly that's in Assad's interests as he could not hold off his people and tide much longer.

Even then he was given a pathway out to live in Russia or several other states like a king. But no, start shelling your people and using chemical weapons is the only way to go.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Please spare me the conspiracy theories and stop reading The Guardian while taking it for gospel.

Oh, fuck off. I didn't even mention The Guardian or any fucking conspiracy theories. I'm talking about actual facts, something you don't have, you damn imbecile.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Regardless, even if a small number of your citizens protest (and let's not forget, that what it was at the beginning) Assad lost the right to govern/rule and any legitimacy as a fit leader when he crushed them with full military force.

That's a stupid statement with no understanding of what legitimacy is.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN You simply cannot deny that, and you cannot knowingly turn your back to those actions. I'm not for world police, but you cannot sit there and watch a leader kill their people because they protest against the regime.

I'm not denying that Assad is bad. I have never said that. I despise the man. But I'm not so blindly myopic that I want us to involve ourselves in a clusterfuck of a situation and make it worse.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN It's not a easy choice. Civil war is horrendous. So is sitting there and letting a dictator use their full military might on their people.

Full military might would involve using every weapon he has on them, which he hasn't, so that statement is factually inaccurate.

You show, as always when it comes to politics, a blind and myopic misunderstanding of the situation. You freak out because you've heard about chemical weapons and crackdowns on protesters, and haven't ACTUALLY thought about the situation.

International Relations is not simple. There is not a good person and a bad person. This shit isn't black and white. Assad is terrible, but the rebels are bad fucking news. This is two groups of terrible people fighting it out, and we have no clear strategy of how to fix the situation. Yes, it sucks that innocent people are dying. Yes, it sucks that atrocities are occurring. But when there is no viable solution to the problem, the U.S. getting involved will only make things worse.

Why do you think the U.S. is so hesitant to get involved? We would love to fuck over Iran by getting rid of an ally of theirs. This situation is fucked up. Stop thinking it isn't and actually use your brain.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Saw this post on FB the other day and thought I'd share it and see what some of you think?

The "concession" were a fucking insult. He had already killed at least 60 peaceful protesters (and those were the ones that got reported - no mention of the political prisoners held in murkey jails) just 12 days in, and two weeks AFTER THAT, he lifted a decades old Emergency Law which was designed to keep his people stripped of any civil liberties.

You can bang on all you want about outside interests, and I'm sure Isreal would be happy to see him go and are no doubt doing whatever they can to make it happen, but Assad and his father built this problem over the last 40 years, and it finally came back to bite them.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN The "concession" were a fucking insult. He had already killed at least 60 peaceful protesters (and those were the ones that got reported - no mention of the political prisoners held in murkey jails) just 12 days in, and two weeks AFTER THAT, he lifted a decades old Emergency Law which was designed to keep his people stripped of any civil liberties. You can bang on all you want about outside interests, and I'm sure Isreal would be happy to see him go and are no doubt doing whatever they can to make it happen, but Assad and his father built this problem over the last 40 years, and it finally came back to bite them.

This problem was built far before Assad's father took over.

Israel would prefer Assad to the rebels.

You know nothing.

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Originally posted by Lews Oh, fuck off. I didn't even mention The Guardian or any fucking conspiracy theories. I'm talking about actual facts, something you don't have, you damn imbecile.

Then where are your stats that "only a small number" want assad gone? Where are those "facts"? It doesn't make it so just because you say it is. You're not Jean Luc Picard.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews That's a stupid statement with no understanding of what legitimacy is.

Bullshit - If killing your people because they protest doesn't endanger your legitimacy as a leader, then what should. Do you want mass genocide as the benchmark? And if so, what exact number has to die before your question their right to rule?

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Originally posted by Lews I'm not denying that Assad is bad. I have never said that. I despise the man. But I'm not so blindly myopic that I want us to involve ourselves in a clusterfuck of a situation and make it worse.

Same, but the alternative is to sit there and watch a man kill innocent people because he wants to stay in power.

Which fucking bit of this do you not get? Or are you just too much of a pussy to take a stance? "It's complicated" isn't a fucking solution.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Full military might would involve using every weapon he has on them, which he hasn't, so that statement is factually inaccurate.

He used fighter jets on civilian buildings. Tanks on protesters.

I see, he didn't nuke them. Oh, that's fine then. Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews You show, as always when it comes to politics, a blind and myopic misunderstanding of the situation. You freak out because you've heard about chemical weapons and crackdowns on protesters, and haven't ACTUALLY thought about the situation.

I couldn't care less about chemical weapons but yes, I do care about the slaughter of protesters. Look at all the early protests. No reports of "rebel fighters". No guns, no weapons, yet Asaad butchered them.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews International Relations is not simple. There is not a good person and a bad person. This shit isn't black and white. Assad is terrible, but the rebels are bad fucking news. This is two groups of terrible people fighting it out, and we have no clear strategy of how to fix the situation. Yes, it sucks that innocent people are dying. Yes, it sucks that atrocities are occurring. But when there is no viable solution to the problem, the U.S. getting involved will only make things worse. Why do you think the U.S. is so hesitant to get involved? We would love to fuck over Iran by getting rid of an ally of theirs. This situation is fucked up. Stop thinking it isn't and actually use your brain.

Please spare me the lecture. This is a truly complex situation now, with interests involved that frankly should not be partaking in shaping these events.

Both sides now have plenty of blame and I agree the rebels now are not a good option either but the bottom line remains; Assad crushed what started out as a peaceful protest trying for more civil rights. The first two weeks of protests were mainly women, usually in gatherings of only a couple of hundred people and they were met with AK's and forced rendition and torture.

Here's an article I remember reading right from the very start:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...1422534165.html

The US won't get involved because it already has too much going on Militarily and aside from McCain, people do not want another war on foreign soil. Combine that with a recession and the resulting constants calls to cut defense spending, and the president that can't even close Gitmo aint going to sign off.

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