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Gr8 m8 I r8 8/8. See, you are a militant one, ain't ya?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J If Alex wants to distance himself from IGK I'm sure he's capable of doing it himself. All I know is he quoted the guy saying "You just come off as an arrogant self important ass" and then said "I agree", before going on to characterise my attitude as "militant". I really, really can't be bothered defining what constitutes "arguing", either.

Oh, yeah, I have sort of always just quoted entire posts, lazy about that.

The militant comment was from seeing you deconstruct entire posts by guys in the music discussion section and get into arguments about little things, then insult them, as well as other views you've expressed in this thread.

Not a judgement, an observation. Of course it's nearly impossible to convey a tone of voice in writing.

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Originally posted by Alex The militant comment was from seeing you deconstruct entire posts by guys in the music discussion section and get into arguments about little things, then insult them, as well as other views you've expressed in this thread. Not a judgement, an observation. Of course it's nearly impossible to convey a tone of voice in writing.

That's precisely what I pointed out to him. Your point was clear to me, not sure why the confusion on System-J's part.

STOP CENSORING JACK!

I want to give a shout out to my friends -_RichardVet_-_rubyai60_-_sergioir1_-_albertarw69_-_oapedfab_-_aapedwex_-_Sergeytulk_-_marciete11) +27 guests

Promise me you never sell out or I'll buy two of those

My shoes are worth more than System-Js car.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, you did say:

Should have qualified it further by saying "in a similar genre". At that time, and now, trance and techno were and are very different beasts so again, it's silly to compare Mills to Tiesto. Tiesto to any of his peers, yes - I stand by that completely.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J As far as I'm aware, Tiesto wasn't doing anything radically different in 1998-1999 to what he was doing in 2000-2002. Certainly all his tracklists, mix CDs and live sets look like exactly the same kind of commercial supermarket trance right through that spell.

Well a single year span comparison isn't really enough time to do anything radically different (i.e. 1999 to 2000) but firstly he was already starting to sell out by 1999 and as I said earlier, by 2000 he'd hired ghost producers and started making that big room stadium trance sound that he personified in the 2000's.

Again, I think your experience of trance at that period was limited to what was on the supermarket shelf because in 1995 when tiesto was making his name, you were still in primary school. Don't take that as a personal slight - it's not - it's just you can't really comment on a club scene that you have zero first hand experience, in the same way I won't try to tell people what the paradise garage was like in the early 80's. I've read a load about it but that's only a fragment of the story intwined with other people's narrative (who probably weren't there themeslves either).

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J From everything I've read, heard and listened to from that era, my impression is firmly that trance fans were convinced they were the centre of clubbing cool in that era, but every other scene was face-palming hard. An enduring affliction of trance fans, it seems.

I think this is just bitterness and ignorance - If you had read any one of the 1000's of the threads on TA discussing trance of that era, you'll see so many people telling stories of how much fucking fun that period was, and just as many people wishing they were part of it that didn't get to experience that music in clubs.

Epic House, House and Trance WERE the scene then, and all the others couldn't keep up (or keep their door open) so trying to say every other scene was facepalming is just pure fallacy. I had mates who were die hard Techno fans (Dave Clarke, Green Velvet etc) and they'd still come out clubbing with us because of the sheer energy and fun of it.

One thing I don't think you realize what that the crowd was older - it wasn't really 16 yr old candy ravers that made up the majority of clubs. I was under 18 and by far the youngest in nearly all the clubs I went to, even the underground unlicensed raves that didn't give a shit - if it hadn't been for my talent of creating great fake ID's and not bottling it in front of bouncers, I doubt I would have got in to any of them. Shit, a lot of trance/house clubs were 21+.

That's in stark contrast to what came later which was underscored by the sudden demise of the scene across Europe, something which is has been well documented and universally lamented by anyone that was in to trance through the 90's and 2000's. The music changed vastly from the late 90's to the early-mid 2000's and I'd argue it led to the fucking awful tripe we have now.

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Originally posted by Lews To get away from the meta-critic debate, as much fun as I find that, I actually would consider it fair to say that Tiesto was relatively 'underground' (in a sense) 1995-1998. I'm a big fan of the Guardian Angel mix comps he put out in those years - the programming is rather poor, but the track selection is quite good. There's a lot of stuff on those mixes that you'd be hard pressed to find on other mix comps. I believe this was the time he was working in a record store, before he had many (any?) international residencies. It's really around 97/98 when he left Basic Beat and started up Black Hole that his work starts to become much more commercial/popular, according to my reading of events.

Spot on. Again, I'll say it one more time - I'm not tiesto fan, never was, but there's no point trying to rewrite his place in the scene retrospectively because of what he is now. In the mid 90's when he was killing the circuit, he really was a decent DJ, breaking a lot of new trance in multiple big and respected residencies and it was toward the end of that decade that things started to change for him direction wise.

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Originally posted by Alex My shoes are worth more than System-Js car.

lol

My tobacco is worth more than his car. I don't know J, how you gonna rebut that?

[[[smoke]]]

I was referring to 98-02, RANN. As Lews said, everything from the start of Black Hole onwards is much of a muchness. So if you're saying that Tiesto "sold out" in 1998 then that's pretty much what Woony pointed out - he was playing commercial trance from practically the moment he had an international profile which was over 10 years ahead of EDM. And comparing his rep to other figures in the same scene doesn't really dispel that notion.

interesting read of history for a noob, especially from woony, RANN and system-grumpy.

as for my ignorant opinion, i don't really care about "selling out", simply coz i just replace any artist with someone new (and really, i bet 90% of the posters here would describe my tastes as "cheesy as fuck" anyway).

since metallica - st anger was the biggest single factor (after adagio for strings of course) in sending me here to meet all of you cunts, i think there's something positive to be said about shit music

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Originally posted by Alex The militant comment was from seeing you deconstruct entire posts by guys in the music discussion section and get into arguments about little things, then insult them

yeah, but how good is he at it! gotta respect that.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN he was already starting to sell out by 1999 and as I said earlier, by 2000 he'd hired ghost producers and started making that big room stadium trance sound that he personified in the 2000's.

So he already sold out in the year of his breakthrough?

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Originally posted by Trance-M So he already sold out in the year of his breakthrough?

It depends on what you consider "selling out" I guess. I mean he was originally doing gabber and jumped ship to trance as soon as it started getting popular.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It depends on what you consider "selling out" I guess. I mean he was originally doing gabber and jumped ship to trance as soon as it started getting popular.

In the time he made some gabber tracks he also was playing trance. Already back then he was leaning more towards trance. A guy close to him at the time told this at a Dutch forum. Tiesto didn't really play gabber sets according to him despite he made some gabber tracks.
And 10 years before, starting in the 1984, he played disco. If he played gabber I'm sure he played other genres longer before that.
The fact that he made some gabber tracks IMO doesn't mean he was totally into gabber. I don't even think he was well known in the gabber scene.

Did Ferry sell out, as well? He made some slamming hardcore and acid tracks back in the day, but then he also made some fine 90's-00's trance. I guess one would have to ask him if he "sold out" or simply became passionate about trance.

His Right Of Way album, however, really had a cheesy and commercial tone to it, and if he actually became passionate about such music, it's somewhat disappointing to say the least, for fans of his earlier work. I don't make a fuss about it, but it would be nice hearing his earlier style among the various other stuff I listen to today.

The same can be said about many other producers and djs, including Freddie Fresh, Woody Mcbride, etc. If they're playing/making shitty music just to survive, it's understandable. If they're doing it for money that they don't even need, that is definitely selling out. And in that sense, if Tiesto, Armin, etc. aren't actually fond of the music they're putting out, welp...they sold out, in my eyes. I'm sure they've got more money than just to survive by these days. But then again, who knows...

Any fans of Steve Aoki here?

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Originally posted by Trance-M You're right. He started dj-ing in 1984, three evenings a week. Disco back then. He still knows where he came from, cleaning the toilets after he dj-ed in the club. So before trance he played other genres for over 10 years. His commercial breakthrough was after Innercity at 20th February 1999. Even in Holland Tiesto wasn't very known. He actually was 'discovered' by Lars Holte from Norway which is a nice story. Tiesto made 500 copies of his first Forbidden Paradise compilation with his phone number at the back because nobody wanted to release it. So he started his label with Arny Bink. Then Lars Holte called as he wanted 10,000 copies of the album. He sold all of them in Norway within a month. Tiesto met Lars Holte again after 12 years last month after winning a Dutch award: part is in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...Q3laqSryfY#t=94 I never blamed him for leaving trance as he just wants to be at the top whatever he thinks that top is. I also never got the impression he isn't liking what he's doing and money is the only drive. Not that I care that much if it was though.

Damn, you can clearly see that Tijs is pretty emotional-sticken when Lars comes in.

Everybody should listen to this in any case:

You know what the most annoying part of Tiesto was? Every fucking Italian in Montreal claiming Tiesto was Italian.

The funny thing about this whole "selling out" debate is that there's only a particular profile of artist with the capacity to really "sell out" in a way that's upsetting. If an artist is pretty poppy from the word go and that's their appeal, there's no tears shed if they just go further down that route. And in the other direction, if an artist is pretty underground/niche then they probably don't have a fanbase to cash in on.

If, say, Sandwell District, decided to give up on the gloomy dungeon-techno and make tropical house, none of their original fans are going to loyally follow them because their original fans are all techno trainspotters who'll instantly hate them, and nobody in the tropical house scene will recognise Sandwell District, so they'd have to start at square one again as an unknown artist. So it just doesn't happen.

The only names who can really piss me off by cashing in are those who were fairly accessible to begin and have large enough fanbases to sustain perfectly good careers, but they have the potential to make a lot more money if they just nudge their sound a little bit in that direction and remove some of the things that might make it indigestible to Top 40 radio.

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney Everybody should listen to this in any case:

Off topic: I don't get the hype around that track, Sankt G�ran used the sample a few years ago and did it much better.

https://soundcloud.com/sanktgoran/sankt-g-ran-late-nite

I don't know, there's quite a few techno DJs that went from hard-as-balls to straight up house. They never had the cult following Sandwell amassed though.

I guess this leads to another question, did people like Umek and Marco Carola sell out by ditching good techno and only making shitty tech house? I don't think their profile has grown that much over the last 15 years.

Did every nosebleed techno DJ on Earth sell out when they dropped 20bpm in 2005 and started playing minimal?

Did Jesus sell out when he came back from the dead?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Did Jesus sell out when he came back from the dead?

No, he sold out when he stopped observing the Torah.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred No, he sold out when he stopped observing the Torah.

touche'

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred No, he sold out when he stopped observing the Torah.

There's one thing I'll say for Tiesto, though: at least he stopped beating the dead horse they call trance and moved on to something else. Granted, that something else might be utter horseshit, but he did it.

question to system j. who in your opinion is the single greatest export of UK techno?
for me its Luke Slater but thats a heavily biased opinion. the only other person i think could be surgeon. u mentioned sandwell but i don't think regis is that great. overall though i would put UK #2 behind detroit in terms of techno producers for me

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