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-- European Politics Thread: Netherlands, France, Germany, Great Britain, and Narnia 2017
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quote:

Originally posted by Lews Yeah, that's great; you still haven't proven that green energy is impossible to achieve. And as I said before, obviously GroenLinks in power would be a bad thing. I'm not on their side. My family is very much CDA

How good is your Dutch?
Hope Chrome translate maybe does a half decent job: http://climategate.nl/2017/02/24/gr...neetverwoester/

Translated one of the comments:

Amalia wind farm provides as much energy throughout the year as a fossil plant of 48MW.
The Eemshaven (coal) central produces 1560 MW demand-driven so you therefore just can deliver as much as 300 Amalia wind farms that also deliver additional weather-dependent flow. Again a lie that with wind and sun can keep going on our energy supply.
Literally frenzy policy drawn up based on dreams and ultimately ending in a dull nightmare.

We're not yet at the stage where we can completely replace dirty energy sources with green ones, but you are fucking stupid and negligent if you think that means we shouldn't even bother trying to start the transition. Your country will be right at the top of the Fucked List when the sea-levels start rising, and it will be within your children's lifetimes. Chew on that next time you're driving them to football training.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid On that scale yes. It's about equity. This is why capitalism is linear and doomed from the beginning. Just reason with me. There is a demand for affordable food, you as an entrepreneur have the ability to provide the supply and make a handsome profit but with detrimental costs to the environment, its rosources, and your customer's healths, and there is no legislation to impede you. Society is at this point held ransom to your better angels.

society holds itself to ransom with its wants.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid It has everything to do with what you asked. The coal mine is deseving of the green tape because its priorities are monetary, if it was publicly funded it would be cyclic. We pay for this energy that we make use of directly without the middle man getting rich off of us.

huh? people's consumption habits don't change by whether the grid is publically or privately owned, except if there's a marked difference in price. and, if you removed the profit-motive from energy generation, there's a good chance you could provide lower prices to the regular people. which in turn would increase energy usage and co2 production. or, the government could keep prices artificially high in order to keep a lid on consumption, and the end user would be in the same position they were in under the capitalists; essentially showing that they are just as deserving of green tape as the owners of capital.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and, if you removed the profit-motive from energy generation, there's a good chance you could provide lower prices to the regular people. which in turn would increase energy usage and co2 production.

This is actually a really good point. In the summer, I run my A/C as sparingly as possibly because it's fucking expensive. If elec prices were cheaper, I would almost certainly run that fucker a lot more than I do.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk This is actually a really good point. In the summer, I run my A/C as sparingly as possibly because it's fucking expensive. If elec prices were cheaper, I would almost certainly run that fucker a lot more than I do.

if i were living in QLD i would subsist on bread and water to afford constant 24/7 AC. even if it meant that a handful of island nations ended up under the sea. sorry guys, first world problems are real.

I paid my elec bill a couple of weeks ago. Just over $900 for the summer quarter

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk I paid my elec bill a couple of weeks ago. Just over $900 for the summer quarter

fuck! im about $1200/year. about time all your feathered visitors started paying board, mate!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fuck! im about $1200/year. about time all your feathered visitors started paying board, mate!

Shit, that's not bad! You'd have gas heating down there for the winter though, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Shit, that's not bad! You'd have gas heating down there for the winter though, huh?

it's more that im a jew who will put socks or a jumper on instead of using the heater plus my place is really small.

Gas + central heating in my house. Because fuck paying that much in electricity. Currently thinking of having solar panels fitted.


Hi James

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN society holds itself to ransom with its wants.

Perhaps

quote:

huh? people's consumption habits don't change by whether the grid is publically or privately owned, except if there's a marked difference in price. and, if you removed the profit-motive from energy generation, there's a good chance you could provide lower prices to the regular people. which in turn would increase energy usage and co2 production. or, the government could keep prices artificially high in order to keep a lid on consumption, and the end user would be in the same position they were in under the capitalists; essentially showing that they are just as deserving of green tape as the owners of capital.

This is where you're wrong. If the grid is publicly owned ,that's correct, we all pay for the green tape also. Costs would essentially be lower, but we'd also have a direct say in energy policy and where to take it. There's 30, 000 people to argue ethics as opposed to 12 greedy motherfuckers in a board. You're overlooking a shit ton of factors. I thought I was the simple minded guy in the room.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid This is where you're wrong. If the grid is publicly owned ,that's correct, we all pay for the green tape also. Costs would essentially be lower, but we'd also have a direct say in energy policy and where to take it. There's 30, 000 people to argue ethics as opposed to 12 greedy motherfuckers in a board. You're overlooking a shit ton of factors. I thought I was the simple minded guy in the room.

well at least we agree you're the simple one. you keep going off on unrelated commie tangents and when questioned, you just move onto some more.

quote:

its priorities are monetary, if it was publicly funded it would be cyclic

what is this supposed to mean and what does it have to do with co2 pollution?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well at least we agree you're the simple one. you keep going off on unrelated commie tangents and when questioned, you just move onto some more. what is this supposed to mean and what does it have to do with co2 pollution?

What? I thought we were talking about taxation and morality. It's very easy to brush off what I'm saying as commie tangents and not address any of it, but i'm just refuting what you said. Where is the nobility in turning a profit?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Costs would essentially be lower, but we'd also have a direct say in energy policy and where to take it. There's 30, 000 people to argue ethics as opposed to 12 greedy motherfuckers in a board. You're overlooking a shit ton of factors. I thought I was the simple minded guy in the room.

He's already explained how energy costs being lower is a bad thing for environmentalism.

Your argument also contains the critical failure of assuming the voting public are all pro-environmentalism. People are inclined to be selfish and myopic on this subject, as I have already pointed out and Trance-MB has already demonstrated.

If we were taxed for pollution directly and it came out to be essentially the same cost it would be ideal. If it costed less it would still be better, it's all about putting the resources in the hands of the people.

You guys just have no faith.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-energy-alone

edit:

https://thinkprogress.org/is-70-percent-renewable-power-possible-portugal-just-did-it-for-3-months-112203b1e542#.x7efb0h5h

quote:

Portugal�s investment in modernizing its electricity grid in 2000 has come in handy. Like in many countries, power companies owned their own transmission lines. What the government did in 2000 was to buy all the lines, creating a publicly owned and traded company to operate them. This was used to create a smart grid that renewable energy producers could connect to (encouraged by government-organized auctions to build new wind and hydro plants). In 2010, the New York Times reported on Portugal�s renewable energy push that started in earnest in 2005: Five years ago, the leaders of this sun-scorched, wind-swept nation made a bet: To reduce Portugal�s dependence on imported fossil fuels, they embarked on an array of ambitious renewable energy projects � primarily harnessing the country�s wind and hydropower, but also its sunlight and ocean waves�. Nearly 45 percent of the electricity in Portugal�s grid will come from renewable sources this year, up from 17 percent just five years ago.

http://www.nppd.com/about-us/

We have no faith in what, exactly?

Also, uh, if you want to talk about Portugal...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/s...?pagewanted=all

'To force Portugal�s energy transition, Mr. S�crates�s government restructured and privatized former state energy utilities to create a grid better suited to renewable power sources. To lure private companies into Portugal�s new market, the government gave them contracts locking in a stable price for 15 years � a subsidy that varied by technology and was initially high but decreased with each new contract round.'

No faith in human beings. Of course their prime minister had to entice private companies to build the things, but the gornment still bought the lines of the grid, which are publicly owned. How else are you supposed to get things done under capitalism? Its like you're saying, "yeah they did this but with means you are arguing against." Well, no shit, I'm arguing against the whole fucking thing.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/02/...ir-energy-grid/

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid No faith in human beings.

Why do you say that? Just because I'm inclined to apportion some blame to people for their own faults, rather than 12 'greedy bastards' in a boardroom?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Of course their prime minister had to entice private companies to build the things, but the gornment still bought the lines of the grid, which are publicly owned. How else are you supposed to get things done under capitalism? Its like you're saying, "yeah they did this but with means you are arguing against." Well, no shit, I'm arguing against the whole fucking thing.

Yes, but you're not really making an argument against the whole thing, you're just making some random and bizarre statements.

You guys are attacking my ideas I'm just trying to substantiate them. My whole thing is any natural resource should be publicly owned. Oil, coal, wind, the ocean. The fact that they aren't is why you run into problems. Like trance-m was venting, lies as they may be, things of that nature happen everyday, all day.

http://www.world-psi.org/en/golden-...rategy-revealed

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid No faith in human beings.

Those pesky human beings seem to be very reluctant to vote for leftist politicians to enact your plans. They seem to prefer voting for things like Donald Trump and Brexit. They very rarely vote for Green parties, and yet you're agreeing with the guy slamming a Green party.

https://www.carbontax.org/where-carbon-is-taxed/

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