TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- bashing America...
Pages (6): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 »
| quote: |
| Originally posted by tranceaholic yeah thats the thing i dont get..afghanistan dont have much to do with the terrorist network of ben laden..do u think he gives a fuck about afghanistan..hell no..u can kill everyone in afghanistan and he wouldnt give a rat's ass..thats why i wasnt a strong supporter of the afghani strike...cause it did nothing to harm the terrorist netwoek of ben laden |
I'm from Finland its between Sweden and Russia if you don't know it already.
To Tiesto:
I don't think this discussion is pointless. I haven't changed my views but I have learned much from others. Its much easier to decide your path if u hear what others think all over the world. This conversation makes you much open minded if you let it happen. After reading these posts I know more details of happenings this topic consists.
To flamers:
If you start your post with aggressive tone, no-one will take you seriously. With this I don't mean only non-US posters but also US ones. Don't take things personally and don't blame no-one personally. If you include your post these kind of sentences: "You are nothing but a sucker of USA proganda" or "you are just a anti-american who don't see the truth behind your country's propaganda" Its much likely no-one will take you seriously.
My view:
Constructive critics are constructive 
It will help you to see the errors you wont see by yourself and maybe offer answers to that. This is very good thing to be. Its called a freedom of speech. Basically its the core of the freedom. If the people has been silenced, only thing you will hear is propaganda.
I'm just thinking which ones have killed more civilians US military or terrorists. This is only a one view because theres an option that with its actions US has made terrorist strikes more difficult. So are these anti-terrorism strikes worth it if 10 civilians are killed per one terrorist. That 1/10 is only a guess, if its more like 1/1 then please tell me. Again one thing needing answering.
Terrorists if they are not holding something for a ransom have reason for their cause. Please stop blaming terrorists or US as evil, because we all know nothing is so simple. We can fight against terrorism for eternity and kill a lot of them and even more civilians on the side. Civilians from both sides. Maybe even soldiers but more civilians than soldiers. I think theres many possible ends for terrorism for idealism.
1. Killing every terrorist on the planet.
Hard to accomplish because civilian casulties creates more terrorists. Think it this way: Because false intelligence factory is bombed and you lost your family in that bombing, this would indeed increase the factor of you becoming a terrorist to revenge the death of your family. See the only way to pay back. Amongs the terrorists the ones "working" on the lowest level (the ones committing these acts) may have more idealism than the ones on charge. They are the ones killing themselves for their cause not the leaders. It wont even require false intelligence or failed bombing. It really doesn't matter if the bomb has killed only terrorists, not a single civilian. It can be and may be framed so that ppl will think it killed just civilians. I'm sure this is what those terrorist leaders are doing. Its called propaganda and if theres already an anti-us mentality, think how much ppl will think of the alternative options. Like if the bomb really killed just terrorist. Very unlikely. If my thoughts go right (I hope not) USA does more harm than good with this simple example.
2. Make the terrorists believe their cause is false. They must believe there is no rational reason for their strikes.
This would be the best option and maybe permanent, but doesn't it sound close to impossible? My solve to this would be constructive interfering. I mean raise country's "living level" (I don't know the right word for this) close to western ones. If I think my own country I don't see any reason to terrorize no-one I live secured life. No problems in feeding my selve or doing what I desire. If this would be given to ppl in afghanistan. Wouldn't it decrease the need to hate anyone. Problems: fundamentalist wont listen anyone else than his leader "chosen by God" and when the leader has another goals than "pleasing his God or helping his ppl" Aid would go in vain. I hope that their heads could be turned but at the same time I think its very difficult. As I said above quite impossible option.
I'm not a prophet and if I would be no-one would believe me, so I can't say how things should be solved.
Problems how I see it:
1. Religion named ISLAM and fundamentalist sections of it!!!
2. USA makes or had made things worse. It decides things for its own like it rules the world. This upsets ppl. It doesn't rule the world and I don't want to event where it could be tested (that would be called ww3)
3. Everyone has their own interest in the game. There is no common good or this is how I see it. I think that only UN thinks for common good no-one else and I'm not sure about this either. How can we solve crisis if no-one really wants to solve it permanently? Theres lots of talks about it, but actions made to solve it are for country's own interest. This is like a big game, not a cure for cancer. politics, politics, politics... basically making your voters happy.
One terrorist event:
In indonesia where from time to time terrorists capture civilians for ransom, the leaders stay away from the situation and lead the kidnapping from away so that they wont get hurt. But the fundamentalist fighters who believed that what they are doing is god's will are risking their lives with the incident. I have read a book where one finnish captive told about his experiences of this kind of event. He was hold there about 4 months and he told in the book that he was amazed how religious some of the terrorists were. They truly believed that its was Gods will what they were doing. At the same time these religious ones were the most "caring" ones. Some middle-eastern oil millionare paid one million dollars for each of the western captive to get them free. At the time of this event Indonesian army was surrounding the where captives were hold but still terrorists and captives were able to break trough this "siege". How can that be? Well because corruption some of the military was in that event. Writer told in that book that at the time of the siege some of the terrorist went to buy cigarrettes from soldiers. Because they were family. Another brother was terrorist another soldier.
well i see you are a dreamer. Sure, we'd all love for it to be that way in a perfect world, but its never going to be.
You do, however, fail to make the biggest distinction between terrorists and the US - we (the USA) do not plan to kill civilians - they are casualties of conflict - this happens in every war, regardless of who's fighting. Terrorists, on the other hand, go out of their way to target innocent civilians to make a point. And thats all they do.
a slight difference there
Yes I'm dreamer. I understand your point. The thing is I'm not sure will USA politics solve problems. If it doesn't those victims are for vain. From victim's point of view, strike made by US may look like terrorist strike. With victim I mean one who has lost relatives in a strike.
I'm an ateist and don't see any point in killing/dying for God. That pisses me off. Thats why this thing is so hard to solve. Those terrorists just want to die for their cause...try to negotiate with them...its pointless.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Verona^My ah, there's a nice bit of propaganda for you... you fell for the medical plant line scripted by terrorists hook, line & sinker. It was a weapons factory, not a medical plant. If you want to believe it's a medical plant, you can join Al-Queda, I hear they're looking for new recruits. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jazz the US is an empire, and is acting as every empire does - to protect itself... but this is an antiquated notion, especially when the rest of the developed world (europe, canada, etc) is trying to move towards a combined global conscience (i.e. Kyoto, ICC, etc)... and this is the way we need to go if we ever hope to solve the REAL problems in the world (poverty, human rights issues, environment etc.)... but the US is hindering the progress of this, and it's obvious why - any movement in this direction will reduce their hold on power... no empire wants to give up any of its power, and fights to protect its hold... it?s an old story that has been repeated throughout history... unfortunately the stakes are a lot higher this time around... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jazz especially when the rest of the developed world (europe, canada, etc) is trying to move towards a combined global conscience (i.e. Kyoto, ICC, etc)... and this is the way we need to go if we ever hope to solve the REAL problems in the world (poverty, human rights issues, environment etc.)... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Tuikkari Problems how I see it: 1. Religion named ISLAM and fundamentalist sections of it!!! |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Arbiter And how, precisely, is this the way we need to go, to solve the real problems of the world? Will a piece of paper signed by pacifists without the guts to back it up stop terrorists from carrying out their plots? Will it stop the tyrant from arming his country to the teeth and waging war on nearby nations? Will it stop the deep-rooted tribal hatred and persistant civil war in Africa? Will it stop the strong and influential from stealing from the weak and impoverished in countries run by those strong and influential? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jazz it's no coincidence that the US ideology (built on capitalism, nationalism, right wing ideas and christianity) has produced a hugely rich & powerful elite that exists in society that has the highest violent crime rate in the western world, lowest literacy rate in the west, worst child poverty rate in the west, widest gap between rich and poor in the west, etc. |
Re: bashing America...
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Juricimo so i see that almost one third of all the threads in here some way end up about America. Many of those America threads end up being "bashing America" threads. I personally stopped posting in here trying to defend what this country and it's political leaders are doing. One of the most reasonable anti-America or anti-war threads have originated from members from the USA itself. That's probably cos these people have formed their opinions on plethora of available information (from the US). What i'm trying to say is that all you non-Americans usually have very little clue what you are arguing, and i believe are arguing, well just for the sake of arguing against America. I dont know what anti-USA bullshit your government feeds you, but along with what seems like ignorance and (immature) maturity level, you end up typing much nonesense and clear bias with no backed up proofs other than your own, or government instilled opinions. I still see people like ABT posting in here in favor of America, only to realize no matter how good of an argument he might stirr up, there will be always people arguing back with simple-minded, biased, anti-America arguments. I guess what I'm trying to say, your arguments have no credibility what-so-ever with me, unless you have been negatively affected by US's actions, or back up your arguments with valid facts. thanks for reading opinions? >JM< PS. why hasn't anybody started a thread called "Iraqi Politics" and argued about Saddam and his socialist more than anything governmental policy? |
Re: Re: bashing America...
| quote: |
| Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew U.S. Media = Propaganda = BRAIN WASHING + Arrogance |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Arbiter I don't really think it's right to blame Islam. Islamic fundamentalists are a problem - a human rights problem - but the real problem is the lack of education in predominantly Islamic regions, even about their own religion. Terrorists aren't real Muslims, they aren't even close to doing anything that is even remotely related to Islam. They're just being used by people who know how to use religion to manipulate people. |
| quote: |
| U.S. Media = Propaganda = BRAIN WASHING + Arrogance |
First, I can see both yours, and Arbiter's view on the pacifism issue for the world of today, but I have to take exception to a what you said here:
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Izzy (im not even going to get into america being christian, cause that is BS, the constitution specifies seperation of church and state). |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by CortexBomb This is true *in theory*, but as I vehemently stated in my sociology class a few weeks ago, must to the chargrin of people holding a similar position to yours, this is simply *not true* in the practical sense. Examples: - "In God We Trust" on the coins - Pledge of Allegiance making specific reference to God. - What does the leader of the country say every time there's a disaster? Let's pray for the victims, etc. - How many people have secular funerals here? Less than 2%, in some parts of Europe it's a high majority. - Protestant Work Ethic based disdain of poor, that, even if people don't realise it now, is heavily rooted in the classic notion that you can tell who the "elect" are by how hard they work, and those that fail are obviously moral failures, and pre-destined to burn in Hell. And a minor point too, people tried to argue with me that "God" includes all religion, and I don't buy this either. God implied singular and masculine to me, ie: the Jewish/Islamic/Christian God. I don't think the people who consider "God" to be a neutral term would feel the same way if you replaced God with say, "God & Goddess" or "The Great Spirit" or "The Unknowable Transcendent Force" or so on. Each religion has it's own specific way of talking about it's deities, to deny that God denotes a very specific concept is a mistake IMHO. |
yeah but most religions have some sort of "god".... whatever name you give it.
also, most religions pray. So, granted there isn't too much separation of the church and the state, the state is not specific on which church. jew, christian, muslim, what have you all pray and have a "god"/"allah".....
forgive the trite answer.. late for bed. hrhr
| quote: |
| Originally posted by ABTsportsline yeah but most religions have some sort of "god".... whatever name you give it. also, most religions pray. So, granted there isn't too much separation of the church and the state, the state is not specific on which church. jew, christian, muslim, what have you all pray and have a "god"/"allah"..... forgive the trite answer.. late for bed. hrhr |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jazz i honestly can't believe some of the comments i'm reading in this thread... like the above post... there is so much misinformation, half truths, and propaganda coming from the "pro-USA" side in this thread that it renders the whole discussion pointless... literally pointless because it accomplishes absolutely nothing... granted, the "anti-US" side in this discussion is not perfect, but at least there is some genuine information coming out of that side... to the "pro-USA" side in this discussion, specifically the ones who think (and have said) that the sudan pharmaceutical plant was producing weapons - not medicine, you are wrong. i don't know where you're getting your (mis)information, but you need to open your mind, and be objective when looking at your own country. |
were pretty damn good at making ourselves look bad... remember this a few motnhs ago:
US justifies Afghan wedding bombing:
Saturday, 7 September, 2002
BBC
A US airstrike that killed dozens of guests at a wedding party in Afghanistan in July was justified, a US military investigation has concluded.
The US say their gunship was fired on
Its report says people at the party in central Afghanistan's Uruzgan province who fired at US aircraft were to blame, not the American pilots who returned the fire.
"While the coalition regrets the loss of innocent lives, the responsibility for that loss rests with those that knowingly directed hostile fire at coalition forces," the report says.
However, the Afghan Border Affairs Minister, Arif Noorzai, told the BBC that he doubted that the report would be accepted by Afghans.
The Afghan Government says 48 civilians - mostly women and children - were killed and 117 injured by the US AC-130 aircraft during the incident, which severely strained relations between Washington and Kabul.
Self-defence
The US report says that the crew of the AC-130 gunship acted "properly and in accordance with the rules" in attacking several sites in the Deh Rawood area.
It also says reconnaissance patrols heard gunfire and explosions at all hours of the day and night, and that the AC-130 came under fire itself.
"The operators of those weapons elected to place them in civilian communities and elected to fire them at coalition forces at a time when they knew there were a significant number of civilians present," the report says.
The US investigators say the airstrike was part of a larger operation in the area, which the report says was at the time home to families of several key Taleban leaders.
No evidence
The Afghan officials and survivors of the incident say the only gunfire from the area came from the guests who fired their rifles in celebration.
Many of the victims were children
Despite the report's claims that heavy weapons had been fired at the US aircraft in the days before the raid, the American investigators found no evidence of anti-aircraft weapons at the bombed sites.
The report says that the US investigation could only confirm 34 dead and about 50 wounded.
Washington has not used the word "apology" because of differing accounts of what happened during the 1 July airstrike.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by trancedfarmer The Afghan officials and survivors of the incident say the only gunfire from the area came from the guests who fired their rifles in celebration. |
that was reported by the bbc
those were the people there were supposedly trying to free from "tyranny" aswell...
oh god.
i thought we had "enough" of that one.
Tuikkari, islam is not a religion created for war time.
and islam is not the only religion that warps their teachings.
the term that you need to know is eschatology.
Religious groups, see the coming of the apocolypse, and in order to prepare the world for the coming kingdom of god, must cleanse the world of all non-believers, or not of their religion.
Instead of just hating a particular group through scapegoating, now they have a "divine order" to kill and rid the world of people who are different. A "jihad". They feel that they are above earthly laws. Because being holy warriors, they are in the service of god.
And in their twisted view, what greater glory is there??
Through recent events, muslim extremists are associated with this mainly, but there are extremists in other religions who can be accused of the same. Especially here in the u.s. - jews, christians.
In my opinion, unfortunately, there is only one way to deal with these people. No pacificism, or negotiations.
actually islam is partially based upon war.. that was how it was started. if muhammad had not been such a successful emperor than islam would not have made it.. they spread islamic culture through conquering regions, and it continued that way for much time.. islam also talks about holy wars a lot, and those holy wars are not just within oneself but real violence is prescribed against others.. this can be found in the Qu'ran. Though this is true- most religions have housed a great deal of violence, except for Buddhism.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Verona^My It's long been known that it was a weapons factory. The dictator of Sudan tried to cover it up as something else, like all good dictators do. Dictators are well known to put civilians in military buildings so they can say we kill civilians, or to stage medical facilities and the like. It's really the only way a dictator can make us look bad, and I choose to ignore it, because it's BS. Many people however, are fooled by dictators, the games they play, and the propaganda only dictators are able to put out in the way they do. I choose not to buy into Al-Queda propaganda. I dont care about the US propaganda, it's the Al-Queda propaganda that's the real threat here. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Cyrus King HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT IT WAS A WEAPONS PLANT, WWWHEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED AFTER THE BOMBING BECUASE THEY HAD NO MEDICINE?!??!?!?!?!?!??!??!?! LOOK CLOSER... stop beleiveing the conspiracy ideals propogated by your government.... and if weapons were being made there... the Nuer would be dead by now... and who are the Nuer.. well.. if you dont who they are...then dont even talk about the bombing. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.