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quote:

Originally posted by gummybear ...the reason i didn't reply to your post was because i didn't see the need to argue with you....

Of course you didn't. You're always right, no matter what anyone else says.

quote:

your original comment was that you didn't believe the US helped Israel as much as pro palestinians said..and you were proven wrong...then you took a couple of days to formulate some bs argument and came back with that post...

Yes, you got it - I spent all that time sitting around formulating an argument. Not as if I have a job or a home or friends or anything like that to take care of.

quote:

i do respect that you are very good at your style of debate...you know how to muddle the waters so to speak..you had your facts skewed and you were proven wrong..so please don't try to make the people that proved you wrong look like a bunch of retards because they chose not to get involved in another debate over a dead issue...

If you believe that something was factually incorrect in that post, or that I drew an incorrect conclusion, then please, do tell. Simply blathering on about how I'm "muddying the waters" or somesuch nonsense might score you points with the converted, but to most others it will make you look like a "retard". It would have come across as a lot more dignified just to stay quiet.

The part about choosing "not to get involved in another debate over a dead issue" was the best - for most of this thread, you've done nothing but. Apparently an issue is only really "dead" whenever you don't have a counterargument.

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear even if they do stop launching rockets... there are splinter groups that operate in the area as well...if any one of them launches anything...hamas would surely be held accountable...it seems like an impossible situation...

And whose fault is this exactly?

Israel has stopped Israeli radicals in their tracks before. If the Palestinian government can't exercise any measure of control over these people then they have failed in their primary duty and have no right to be governing.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut And whose fault is this exactly? Israel has stopped Israeli radicals in their tracks before. If the Palestinian government can't exercise any measure of control over these people then they have failed in their primary duty and have no right to be governing.

i would say that it would fall on the palestinian government and authority....i know you think i'm only one sided..but i'm not..i am willing to point fingers where they should be pointed.....what i meant by the roll of the eyes and the impossible situation comment is that the average person on both sides probably wants peace..it's the powers that be..once again on both sides ...that is fucking it up for the average folk in that region....and that is the frustrating part..it's a mess that seems impossible to clean up..and in the meantime, innocent people are dying...

i think i have shown several times in this thread that i'm not some homer that's just cheering for the muslim side...

as for not having counter arguments..i have learned a long time ago that sometimes it's best to agree to disagree....don't take the fact that i chose not to debate with you as some sort of sign of weakness....you're entitled to your opinions..who am i to try to change them....i have to deal with a fiance who never backs down from an argument..trust me..not something that i want ot repeat on here..

hmmm..i do recall saying i agreed with yohan on some of his points..even though we are on opposite sides....i am a lot more humble than you may think....

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut And whose fault is this exactly? Israel has stopped Israeli radicals in their tracks before. If the Palestinian government can't exercise any measure of control over these people then they have failed in their primary duty and have no right to be governing.

fully agree that if the PLO can't control their population they shouldn't be the leaders. still does not preclude the use of force.

I know 100% of the palestinian population and their supporters would probably disagree with me, but I wouldn't mind full Israel control of all the square footage in that region as long as they were fair and equal to all race/religion and they kept the peace without extremely violent means. They should have a social welfare program where taxes from Jews should be used to support the poor Muslim families. I am optimistic (probably naively) that this would thwart at least some of the motives behind suicide bombers; to support their families financially.

And Israel shouldn't respond eye-for-an-eye on suicide attacks; they should continue to foster peace through peaceful means and at some point, I don't care how many more innocent jews have to die, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE will sympathize and want to eradicate the scum themselves when they see how Israel is responding to violence with peace.

Until something like that happens, this is never gonna end. Instead, Israel is escalating their violent response.

It is now time to send Israel to the international court and have them charged with numbers of crimes against humanity.

Cant wait.

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/children.html#source)

Israelis and Palestinians Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

1,062 Israelis and at least 4,876 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/deaths.html#source)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured
September 29, 2000 - Present

8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/injuries.html#source)

Daily U.S. Taxes to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2007

During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/usaid.html)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
1955 - 1992

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/un.html)

Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/prisoners.html)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/homes.html)

Current Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates

The Israeli unemployment rate is 7.3%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 23%. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/econ.html)

Current Illegal Settlements on the Otherʼs Land

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ʽoutpostsʼ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (http://www.ifamericaknew.com/stats/settlements.html)

quote:

Diginut: And whose fault is this exactly? Israel has stopped Israeli radicals in their tracks before. If the Palestinian government can't exercise any measure of control over these people then they have failed in their primary duty and have no right to be governing.

Don't you believe that Israeli radicals exist? They could be soldiers or settlers. I truly believe they exist. Why doesn't Israel do something about the harassment and humiliation which Palestinians receive from Israelis? Why don't they do anything about Israeli radicals who spark hatred in Palestinians? Even relief volunteers have been beaten and killed on many occasions, including UN workers. This ongoing harassment causes some Palestinians to fight back for their rights and dignity. Israelis are quick to dismiss these people as 'Islamic militants' or 'terrorists' (what a word..). Regardless of who should take the blame of the war in Gaza, Israel's occupation of Palestine and their use of force on Palestinians is unjustifiable.



A typical day for many Palestinian families

Human shields

@jad: Didn't you say you were done posting in this thread? Reminds me a lot of the OP...

Funny, one disappeared the other showed up - yay propaganda.

Over a 1000 people are dead...what the fuck is ur problem??? Just cause u guys went through a lot of heartache doesn't mean u can do the same thing to others. I'm sooo fucking sick of this. Don't make it look like Israel's the victim here. If me, my family, and previous generations were treated like that, I'd gladly fight for our freedom and safety by ALL MEANS NECESSARY!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Over a 1000 people are dead...what the fuck is ur problem??? Just cause u guys went through a lot of heartache doesn't mean u can do the same thing to others. I'm sooo fucking sick of this. Don't make it look like Israel's the victim here. If me, my family, and previous generations were treated like that, I'd gladly fight for our freedom and safety by ALL MEANS NECESSARY!!!!

What are you on about and why are you showing this for the millionth time?

The fact that its not propaganda, its real and that u need to open ur fucking mind.


I'll ask u the same thing I asked Tatgirl (who still hasn't answered me btw)

Do u think that the Palestinians will forgive the Israeli government/military after all they've done and just go on living their lives?

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI The fact that its not propaganda, its real and that u need to open ur fucking mind. I'll ask u the same thing I asked Tatgirl (who still hasn't answered me btw) Do u think that the Palestinians will forgive the Israeli government/military after all they've done and just go on living their lives?

do you even know what propaganda is?

Ofcourse I do!!! What I meant is pay attention, don't just brush it off as its of no significance thinking Israel did no wrong.

I wouldn't be so emotionally heated with this but this issue hits too close to home.

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Do u think that the Palestinians will forgive the Israeli government/military after all they've done and just go on living their lives?

No, but they should.

Every time they "fight for their freedom" Israel kills a few thousand of them and locks down the border. Not exactly what I would call "achieving your goals".

Why? If I go and kill someone in your family, would you forgive me?

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Ofcourse I do!!! What I meant is pay attention, don't just brush it off as its of no significance thinking Israel did no wrong. I wouldn't be so emotionally heated with this but this issue hits too close to home.

I don't think I once claimed or even alluded to such a thing. I might be more pro-Israel than pro-Palestinian - in fact I certainly am, but I think you downplay the Israeli side at LEAST as much as I do the Palestinian side (and I've actually said several times I far from agree with everything Israel does).

That said, I think you look at numbers more than you look at who/what is contained in those numbers. I'd argue a large majority aren't 'innocent', and in some of the cases that they are, they're used as tools of war by their radical leadership.

I'll second you not really understanding what propaganda is if you're still saying the same thing though.

To answer your question:

No, I don't think Palestinians will just sit quietly. To be fair, I could ask you the same question about people in Sderot - only the majority will on the Israeli side.

Regardless, they certainly should sit quietly. The very fact that "more of their land" is gone is because they tried to kill off the Israeli settlement as a result of spurring from the surrounding Arab nations and lost out. They should be mad with those nations and actually learn from their mistakes - maybe that way people will ACTUALLY live in some sort of peace - or at least quiet.

Edit: Just to note, by your silly 'logic', natives should be trying to murder modern North Americans and Europeans. (And I don't think that's an accurate comparison to this situation either because we'll again have a really stupid endless argument about "who started it").

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Why? If I go and kill someone in your family, would you forgive me?

I can't say that I would because I don't know how I would handle someone killing my family. But I CAN say that I wouldn't retaliate by killing you or your family. That would invite more retaliation my way and end up in this exact, never-ending cycle of violence and retribution. That is not a good thing.

There's a lot of hate and anger on both sides, and neither is willing to let go of past crimes committed, but for the better future of the innocent lives on both sides, they have to forgive and move forward.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam

Israel should consider the same thing since they've retalliated numerous times without even considering your solution of "forgive and forget".

quote:

Shade

As of January 17, 2009, 13 Israelis (including 3 civilians) and 1,210 Palestinians are estimated to have been killed in this conflict. The Palestinian fatalities include 410 children and 85 women.[91]

Source: Wikkipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E...93Gaza_conflict


The situation in Sderot was totally un-called for but that still doesn't excuse what Israel has done and is doing.

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Israel should consider the same thing since they've retalliated numerous times without even considering your solution of "forgive and forget". As of January 17, 2009, 13 Israelis (including 3 civilians) and 1,210 Palestinians are estimated to have been killed in this conflict. The Palestinian fatalities include 410 children and 85 women.[91] Source: Wikkipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E...93Gaza_conflict The situation in Sderot was totally un-called for but that still doesn't excuse what Israel has done and is doing.

Again, following your logic, the people in Sderot should have full right to retaliation because "you wouldn't expect them to just sit quietly after something like that".

Outside of that, you still seem to be ignoring the fact that many of those women and children are used as tools/pawns of war. I know the numbers are unbalanced in casualties, but it's bound to happen when such radical and uncaring leadership is in power. Again, I'll refer you to the child-suicide-bomber situations to show you "how much they care about the children". I'm not calling anyone innocent, but it certainly not as black and white as you're making it seem.

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI Israel should consider the same thing since they've retalliated numerous times without even considering your solution of "forgive and forget".

I agree.

So then if neither side is capable of forgiving and moving forward, why do you place the onus on Israel alone? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Bottom line is, SOMEONE has to turn the other cheek for this to be brought to a final close, and I see no evidence of that happening.

no matter how jusitfy it, the actions of the Israeli government/military are that of a fucking scumbag. Hamas is to blame as well but Israel went too far.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam I agree. So then if neither side is capable of forgiving and moving forward, why do you place the onus on Israel alone? Or am I misunderstanding you? Bottom line is, SOMEONE has to turn the other cheek for this to be brought to a final close, and I see no evidence of that happening.

You're absolutely right except this conflict will never end since it is perpetually being fueled by hatred and vengeance from both sides.

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI You're absolutely right except this conflict will never end since it is perpetually being fueled by hatred and vengeance from both sides.

WE HAVE AGREEMENT!

/thread

I can't stay silent when people have such a disillusioned view of what's going on in Palestine. Some of the things I read after my so called 'last post' jsut shocked me. I don't want any of these poor views to rub off on others. Shade.. spam.. it's just funny to see that you guys can't even answer the questions you're asked by other TAs clearly. You either bring up a smaller and more irrelevant issue in the question, or you start making useless comparisons... I mean you're comparing Sderot - occupied land in which there is relative minimal damage- leading to 4 deaths and a bunch of crying (mostly) immigrant settlers - to Gaza in which the NATIVEs of the land are being massacred. Come on.. don't bullshit yourself.. the people of Sderot are living in relative luxury in comparison to Gazans.. as they have been throughout the history of Israel. Please give us some proper facts. You're most definitely entitled to your opinions but back them up with facts. Maybe you can't use many facts as they don't work to your advantage..

I agree with that statement too ^^.

quote:

Originally posted by jad I can't stay silent when people have such a disillusioned view of what's going on in Palestine. Some of the things I read after my so called 'last post' jsut shocked me. I don't want any of these poor views to rub off on others. Shade.. spam.. it's just funny to see that you guys can't even answer the questions you're asked by other TAs clearly. You either bring up a smaller and more irrelevant issue in the question, or you start making useless comparisons... I mean you're comparing Sderot - occupied land in which there is relative minimal damage- leading to 4 deaths and a bunch of crying (mostly) immigrant settlers - to Gaza in which the NATIVEs of the land are being massacred. Come on.. don't bullshit yourself.. the people of Sderot are living in relative luxury in comparison to Gazans.. as they have been throughout the history of Israel. Please give us some proper facts. You're most definitely entitled to your opinions but back them up with facts. Maybe you can't use many facts as they don't work to your advantage.. I agree with that statement too ^^.

Ur right but some people are just too set in their views and are never going to change.

I feel your pain but just agree to disagree and let it go. Its pretty useless since this isn't going anywhere and TRANCEADDICT isn't going to solve anything or contribute anything to the situation.



/THREAD

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