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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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Back on topic:

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

That's the ex-MI-5 whistle blower. Thanks for posting it.

just posting two documents for any CTers that have a commitment to finding the truth and assessing all arguments. theyre long, but definitely not complicated.

thorough examination of WTC7

analysis of WTC1&2 collapse from a controlled demolition industry standpoint

edit: please read that second link shaolin and tell me what you think?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN analysis of WTC1&2 collapse from a controlled demolition industry standpoint

Wow, nice article there! I'm grateful that you have taken responsibility to defend common sense and BASIC physics in this particular subject! Every time you post, it's a breath of fresh air in this stagnant cesspool of conspiracies based on incompetent researchers and "Experts".

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers Wow, nice article there! I'm grateful that you have taken responsibility to defend common sense and BASIC physics in this particular subject! Every time you post, it's a breath of fresh air in this stagnant cesspool of conspiracies based on incompetent researchers and "Experts".

hahaha, dont let shaolin hear you say that coz he knows my physics is about as reliable as alex jones' but i agree, the articles are very well written and pretty easy to grasp for the most part.

im curious as to whether any of the conspiracy advocates ever read this paper? very easy to read, non technical

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN analysis of WTC1&2 collapse from a controlled demolition industry standpoint

PKC, Bush signed Presidential Directive W199i (aka Executive Order W199I-WF-213589) prior to 9-11 , ordering intelligence acencies, including the FBI, to not investigate potential Al-Qaeda operatives. This was a signal for them to back off. Now why would he do that?

quote:

Bush took FBI agents off Laden family trail LONDON: America was itself to blame for the events of September 11 because the US administration was using "kid gloves" in tracking down Osama bin Laden and "other fanatics linked to Saudi Arabia", a special BBC investigation has alleged in a damning indictment of the two presidents Bush and American foreign policy. The report, which the BBC claimed was based on a secret FBI document, numbered 199I WF213589 and emanating out of the FBI�s Washington field office, alleged that the cynicism of the American establishment and "connections between the CIA and Saudi Arabia and the Bush men and bin Ladens" may have been the real cause of the deaths of thousands in the World Trade Centre attacks. The investigation, which featured in the BBC�s leading current affairs programme, Newsnight, said the FBI was told to "back off" investigating one of Osama bin Laden�s brothers, Abdullah, who was linked to "the Saudi-funded World Association of Muslim Youth (WAMY), a suspected terrorist organisation," whose accounts have still not frozen by the US treasury despite "being banned by Pakistan some weeks ago and India claiming it was linked to an organisation involved in bombing in Kashmir". Newsnight said there was a long history of "shadowy" American connections with Saudi Arabia, not least the two presidents Bush�s "business dealings" with the bin Ladens and another more insidious link revealed by the former head of the American visa section in Jeddah. The official said he had been concerned about visas issued to large numbers of "unqualified" men "with no family links or any links with America or Saudi Arabia", only to find out later that it "was not visa fraud" but part of a scheme in which young men "recruited by Osama bin Laden" were being sent for "terrorist training by the CIA" after which they were sent on to Afghanistan. In a reiteration of a now well-known claim by one of George W Bush�s former business partners, the BBC said he made his first million 20 years ago on the back of a company financed by Osama�s elder brother, Salem. But it added the more disturbing assertion that both presidents Bush had lucrative stakes along with the bin Ladens in Carlyle Corporation, a small private company which has gone on to become one of America's biggest defence contractors. The bin Ladens sold their stake in Carlyle soon after September 11, it said. American politicians later told the BBC programme that they rejected the accusation that the establishment had called the dogs of the intelligence agencies off the bin Ladens and the royal House of Saud because of a strategic interest in Saudi Arabia, which has the world's biggest oil reserve.

Source: Times of India

firstly, thats not an argument re anything related to 9/11. thats shaolin's selective emphasis. i still think its amazing that in the one hand you examine and highlight bush's uselessness, and on the other hand you'll accuse him of the greatest stunt in the history of the world.

btw, the document i posted is a whole lot more connected to 9/11 than some investigation where the viewer is meant to assume that prejudice, rather than incompetence, was to blame.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN firstly, thats not an argument re anything related to 9/11.

Oh no, stopping the FBI from investigating Al-Qaeda before 9-11, signing and Executive Order (W199I-WF-213589) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats shaolin's selective emphasis.

Selective emphasis is the photo "evidence" a 747 crashing into the pentagon that Popular Mechanics has exclusive access to, which came out muuuuch later.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i still think its amazing that in the one hand you examine and highlight bush's uselessness, and on the other hand you'll accuse him of the greatest stunt in the history of the world.

It's really not a great stunt when 84% of the American people don't buy their explanation:

quote:

Angus Reid Global Monitor : Polls & Research Americans Question Bush on 9/11 Intelligence October 14, 2006 - Many adults in the United States believe the current federal government has not been completely forthcoming on the issue of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, according to a poll by the New York Times and CBS News. 53 per cent of respondents think the Bush administration is hiding something, and 28 per cent believe it is lying. Only 16 per cent of respondents say the government headed by U.S. president George W. Bush is telling the truth on what it knew prior to the terrorist attacks, down five points since May 2002. Al-Qaeda operatives hijacked and crashed four airplanes in the U.S. on Sept. 11, 2001, killing nearly 3,000 people. In October, after Afghanistan�s Taliban regime refused to hand over al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, the U.S. launched the war on terrorism. On Aug. 6, 2001, a Presidential Daily Briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." mentioned "patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York." On May 17, 2002, Bush discussed the situation, saying, "The American people know this about me, and my national security team, and my administration: Had I known that the enemy was going to use airplanes to kill on that fateful morning, I would have done everything in my power to protect the American people." On Sept. 11, Bush referred to the attacks, saying, "Five years after 9/11, our enemies have not succeeded in launching another attack on our soil, but they�ve not been idle. Al-Qaeda and those inspired by its hateful ideology have carried out terrorist attacks in more than two dozen nations. And just last month, they were foiled in a plot to blow up passenger planes headed for the United States. They remain determined to attack America and kill our citizens�and we are determined to stop them." Polling Data When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying? Oct. 2006, May 2002 Telling the truth 16%, 21% Hiding something 53%, 65% Mostly lying 28%, 8% Not sure 3%, 6% Source: The New York Times / CBS News Methodology: Telephone interviews with 983 American adults, conducted from Oct. 5 to Oct. 8, 2006. Margin of error is 4 per cent.

Source: AgnusReid Global Monitor

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN btw, the document i posted is a whole lot more connected to 9/11 than some investigation where the viewer is meant to assume that prejudice, rather than incompetence, was to blame.

Incompetence is a great cover for complicity.

I think I posted it already, but can't be bothered to check the enitre thread:

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Oh no, stopping the FBI from investigating Al-Qaeda before 9-11, signing and Executive Order (W199I-WF-213589) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

its circumstantial. also, it could be evidence towards complicity, but not necessarily orchestration. 2 very different arguments. the only argument i really care about relate to orchestration. alone, i dont see this as evidence of anything apart from bush being inept.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Selective emphasis is the photo "evidence" a 747 crashing into the pentagon that Popular Mechanics has exclusive access to, which came out muuuuch later.

oh come on. youre not SERIOUSLY doubting that a flight flew into the pentagon are you? and no, selective emphasis is shaolin interpreting (W199I-WF-213589) as meaning the administration planned the attack. i can understand you being suspicious, but sometimes the leaps you make appear to have a whole lot of faith behind them.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It's really not a great stunt when 84% of the American people don't buy their explanation:

so, we should consider the people's opinion when examining the evidence? come now these are the same people that elected bush twice. they dont have a whole lot of credibility for me!!

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Incompetence is a great cover for complicity.

possibly so, but i think we can see a pattern of incompetence from this administration, so its not that hard to believe.

please read that article i posted. its not that long. in point form. from a world expert on demolitions. id like to concentrate on that for just a moment! we know the towers fell down, and here is an expert telling us why it couldn't have been explosives. surely thats gotta count for something?

too often i feel the evidence you raise requires an inference by the reader, rather than it being cut and dried & laid bare.

ahhhhh yes steven jones. but your 9/11 article still hasnt been peer reviewed has it? haha

shaolin- who are you going to give more weight to? a physics professor not qualified to analyse the collapse of super-structure, or a bunch of experts in the demolitions field that have conducted demolitions all over the world and in all types of buildings? (like i posted.) go on. indulge me. give it a quick read!

seriously, im sorry, but jones is an idiot. any layman can see the towers didnt fall anything like what a controlled demolition actually looks like.

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]


this video explains the situation quite thoroughly. after watching it, i definetely feel it was a demolition.

yes you are quite right that laymen don't know the difference, the public are sheep, just like you.

jeee. when will you people finaly forget about that 9/11 thing. what is so special about it? there are plenty of terrorist acts up there, but everybody just keep talking about this one event.

get a grip on yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im sorry. but youre really just sounding like a fucking crazy lunatic now. if this is the best the 9/11 nutcases have then im not surprised you're being ignored. hint hint: mcveigh planted those bombs in the building champ!

Here. Learn and watch. On 7/7 attacks, government agencies were doing terrorist simulation attacks on the subway while the events then unfolded, all happening in ONE day!!! What are the odds of that happening at the SAME TIME at the SAME PLACE. The odds of that happening are one in a tretigillion. And guess what - on 9/11 NORAD, which is supposed to protect American skies instead was doing terrorist drills, for the first time that year, and EXACTLY AT THE SAME TIME and SAME PLACE terrorists attacked. Whoa, eh? Those terrorists hit the jackpot! For one and a half hours in 3 years the terrorists were literally told when and where to attack. Haha.

7-7 attacks had drills going on at the same time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B5Jltzcimc

9/11 attacks had drills going on at the same time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXNjLt3vVwg

Haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ65NwtbQic

Full radio transcript for the same 7/7 attacks by a guy who clearly identifies himself as former British intelligence agent now working for some shady security company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPafvtJ9GU

You're the lunatic for being an idiot and ignorant ass. If you discount this, then you are rightfully a government agent. Haha. Here's MY smoking gun. Oh noooo we didnt know or ever imagined that terrorist could have hijacked the planes and crashed them into Pentagon and World Trade Center - which turned up to be a big fucking lie. Haha. It WAS and IS American government's fault, not the terrorists because the governnment knew about the attacks beforehand and lied to people by saying their never envisioned attacks coming! Haha. The guy in charge of that drill on 7/7 was a former MI6 agent!!! Haha ....

Good food-for-thought: Mi6 hiding terrorists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flypeg17ZsM

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveller jeee. when will you people finaly forget about that 9/11 thing. what is so special about it? there are plenty of terrorist acts up there, but everybody just keep talking about this one event. get a grip on yourself.

Tell that to the media. All I keep seeing/hearing on the news is nine-eleven this nine-eleven that, terrorists here and terrorists there, saddam has nukes and he financed bin laden, blah blah blah.

It's the media that keeps pushing the recycled garbage.

A manufactured utopia needs a manufactured synthesis.

Or would this please you some:

Conspiracy theorists, the same people who don't believe we landed on the moon, and probably wouldnt believe they were alive if they didn't see themselves in front of the mirror every morning, will show you overwhelmingly biased and misleading evidence.

This isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions. I don't believe in always taking to heart the first explanation of such serious events as 9/11.

But come'on...put the bong down and lose some of that paranoia.

Pay especially close attention to the quotes of the firemen in the link below, as this brilliantly illustrates my point of biased, misleading media and third party coverage in order to sway public opinion.

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by xstalkrx Conspiracy theorists, the same people who don't believe we landed on the moon, and probably wouldnt believe they were alive if they didn't see themselves in front of the mirror every morning, will show you overwhelmingly biased and misleading evidence. This isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions. I don't believe in always taking to heart the first explanation of such serious events as 9/11. But come'on...put the bong down and lose some of that paranoia. Pay especially close attention to the quotes of the firemen in the link below, as this brilliantly illustrates my point of biased, misleading media and third party coverage in order to sway public opinion. http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

Explain me this then, please:

On 7/7 attacks as in on 9/11 attacks, government agencies were doing terrorist simulation attacks on the subway while the events then unfolded, all happening in ONE day at the SAME place at the SAME time!!! What are the odds of that happening??? The odds of that happening are one in a tretigillion, according to the video I've seen. And guess what - on 9/11 NORAD, which is supposed to protect American skies instead was doing terrorist drills, for the first time that year, and EXACTLY AT THE SAME TIME and SAME PLACE terrorists attacked. Whoa, eh? Those terrorists hit the jackpot! For one and a half hours in 3 years the terrorists were literally told when and where to attack. Haha.

7-7 attacks had drills going on at the same time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B5Jltzcimc

9/11 attacks had drills going on at the same time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXNjLt3vVwg

Haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ65NwtbQic

Full radio transcript for the same 7/7 attacks by a guy who clearly identifies himself as former British intelligence agent now working for some shady security company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPafvtJ9GU


Good food-for-thought: Mi6 hiding terrorists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flypeg17ZsM

quote:

Originally posted by xstalkrx Conspiracy theorists, the same people who don't believe we landed on the moon, and probably wouldnt believe they were alive if they didn't see themselves in front of the mirror every morning, will show you overwhelmingly biased and misleading evidence.

Do you believe in UFOs? Little green cow mutilating aliens? Global Warming/Cooling? Life on other worlds? The US money system still on the gold standard? The paranormal? Ghosts? God? Allah? Shiva? Satan?

Then don't try to bait an argument if you have nothing to argue about. After all, if you're gonna pigeonhole a whole group of people then don't throw stones in a glass house.

quote:

This isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions. I don't believe in always taking to heart the first explanation of such serious events as 9/11. But come'on...put the bong down and lose some of that paranoia.

When people have no facts they argue a lie. When they have no lies to argue they poke fun and name call.

quote:

Pay especially close attention to the quotes of the firemen in the link below, as this brilliantly illustrates my point of biased, misleading media and third party coverage in order to sway public opinion. http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

For example, Steven Jones and Alex Jones (no relation) might be considered kooky or crazy but at least you can choose to talk to them (or not) unlike this guy who is a glorified troll:

quote:

Q: Why do you hide your identity? A: It should be none of anyone's business who I am. If I'm right, the evidence will back me up. If I'm wrong the evidence will expose it the same as if you knew who I was.

Had anyone cared to read a think tanks report once in a frigging while they would find these two clues:

States, terrorists, and other disaffected groups will acquire weapons of mass destruction and mass disruption, and some will use them. Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers.
NEW WORLD COMING:
AMERICAN SECURITY IN THE 21ST CENTURY
15th September, 1999


A transformation strategy that solely pursued capabilities for projecting force from the United States, for example, and sacrificed forward basing and presence, would be at odds with larger American policy goals and would trouble American allies.

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event � like a new Pearl Harbor.
Rebuilding America�s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century
A Report of
The Project for the New American Century
September 2000


But like you said they're just conspiracy theories.

Anyone see that picture take from a Satallite of the Pentagon the day before 9-11?

I believe it was actually on Google Earth. It shows a straight chalk line on the ground outside the Pentagon, at the exact spot and angle where they claim the plane hit it 24 hours later.

WTF were they doing tracing a chalk path across the Pentagon lawn?

And wasn't it convenient than Rumsfeld's office was on the exact opposite side of where the "impact" took place?

hmmmm

Google got it's seed money from the CIA. It's no wonder that it took off like it did.

People don't realize it, but their use of illicit drugs indirectly finances Google which in turn tells the government just what sites you've been visiting using a NSA approved operating system.

Don't forget those annoying little shop Google ads as well.

Move along people, go back in your homes. Nothing to see.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Google got it's seed money from the CIA. It's no wonder that it took off like it did. People don't realize it, but their use of illicit drugs indirectly finances Google which in turn tells the government just what sites you've been visiting using a NSA approved operating system. Don't forget those annoying little shop Google ads as well. Move along people, go back in your homes. Nothing to see.

Dam ... nice links!

How can most of the world think the US adminstration is horrible and incompitent but in some way genius enough to pull off 9/11?

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Anyone see that picture take from a Satallite of the Pentagon the day before 9-11? I believe it was actually on Google Earth. It shows a straight chalk line on the ground outside the Pentagon, at the exact spot and angle where they claim the plane hit it 24 hours later. WTF were they doing tracing a chalk path across the Pentagon lawn? And wasn't it convenient than Rumsfeld's office was on the exact opposite side of where the "impact" took place? hmmmm

A chalk line isn't going to help you hit a building, just think about it.

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