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-- God and Evolution..
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i hope you all realize that you can reason in and out of ANYTHING, and that this debate will never stop because of that, it is just one huge cycle that will always lead to the same place ... NOWHERE.

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[b] Originally posted by netw3rkd{/b] pussy there is no god you just think that so you will feel better im not trying to sound bad to you or anything, because we all have our believes, but i dont believe there is a god if there was, would he / she let me be addicted to meth? or suffer extremly from 9823743 disorders? meh whatever

your letting yourself be addicted to meth, that is your choice

if you ever get a chance to have revelations explained to you, you would understand why he / she (Jesus in this case) is letting you have all these problems.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Even when the argument is about God or Hitler? Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them: - Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman? - Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust? - Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results? - How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders? - According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful? - Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location? - Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances? - Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve? - Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

not gonan do point by poiint, but throw in the fact that they were intelligent and self-aware and you have something. They werent being damned, they basically chose to leave the sheltering palm of God.

ok fine ill do point by point

the nakedness was shameful not in a "im in class and Im wearing only underwear" kind of way, but a general, I shouldnt walk around flopping my dick around way, this needs to be covered up. Its why a lot of people still wear boxers when they sleep

the location is theorized to be between tigres and euphrates in mesopotamia

and the rib thing has tons of ideas behind it the main one being that everything is stemming from Adam, and it was setting up the relationship between man and woman, in ephesians it even says that when you get married you are supposed to be 1 flesh 1 spirit, so that idea is stemming from that original creation. and no, i didnt look that up.


we arent supposed to be grateful, we are supposed to realize that we still sin and ask forgiveness for that.

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Originally posted by Pheobius "Also it is fair to say that there is more evidence of the life and deity of Jesus Christ than there is of the Geco-Persian war, which any classical historian would accept without a trace of disbeleif�"

You put forth a good argument, but my point is how crazy it sounds when ppl say the existence of god can be proved or disproved. As ludicrous as the gods I sighted may sound there is no amount of evidence you can present that will disprove their existence. This should give you a taste of what feels like when someone brings their religion into the argument.

Even your point that Jesus existed doesn�t prove anything. All of the great religions are started by an individual who is either a prophet or god himself. Let�s take a more current and popular polyistic religion (Hinduism). Could all of their followers have gotten it wrong? Buddha really existed and more than one person verified his existence, it�s there in the holy text, so it must be true... My point here is just because a person proclaimed himself a messenger of god and a bunch of ppl believed him, doesn�t make what he says any truer or better prove the existence of his god.

Christians purists love to have it both ways especially when talking about the Bible. For a long time the church has argued it could be taken in verbatim as truth, now they have changed their tune that its an allegory and isn�t meant to be taken literally. Now a days it's in fashion to pick and choose which sections are allegory or are literally the truth, based on what best supports their personal take. Btw, I believe in the allegory theory, which would not make it a very definative source to prove anything.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Even when the argument is about God or Hitler? Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them: - Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman? - Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust? - Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results? - How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders? - According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful? - Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location? - Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances? - Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve? - Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

First of all, Genesis isn't meant to be 100% literal. For all we know, it could be a completely symbolic account of what happened or it could have been completely literal and everything in it has actually happened.

Here are some articles to answer a couple of your questions:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/edenfnd.pdf
http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9312a.htm

and here are some more articles for you to browse through
http://www.apologeticspress.org/tree1.htm

i am not trying to preach or convert anyone but I think that these guys puts up a good argument for creationists and explains things logically

We, as christians, don't have the answers to everything. In fact, I believe we have less answers than atheists. I say this because we do not rely on ourselves to find the answers, but rather we rely on God. A lot of people are not willing to accept the whole idea of serving a higher power that they cannot sense with their five physical senses and therefore dismiss God as being BS. Like I said before, I chose to believe first, and then I found that God revealed Himself to me; not the other way around.

I hope that this clarifies some things. Feel free to disagree.

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Originally posted by Bondor your letting yourself be addicted to meth, that is your choice

thats true, but still...based on my opinions, i dont believe in god

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Originally posted by kewlness First of all, Genesis isn't meant to be 100% literal. For all we know, it could be a completely symbolic account of what happened or it could have been completely literal and everything in it has actually happened.

Here, I agree with you. In fact, I have absolutely no beef with people who like to view the story of Adam and Eve, or other biblical references, for example Noah's Ark, as metaphorical. I'm born Jewish, and people who seriously learn the religion (not just who've read the bible) will understand that it is in fact meant to be taken metaphorically, that the book itself is a book of laws, not history.

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Originally posted by Orbax the nakedness was shameful not in a "im in class and Im wearing only underwear" kind of way, but a general, I shouldnt walk around flopping my dick around way, this needs to be covered up. Its why a lot of people still wear boxers when they sleep

So you can believe that shame is instinctual, but not sex (as you posted recently against evolution)?

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the location is theorized to be between tigres and euphrates in mesopotamia

Theorized on what evidence that doesn't come from the Bible?

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and the rib thing has tons of ideas behind it the main one being that everything is stemming from Adam, and it was setting up the relationship between man and woman, in ephesians it even says that when you get married you are supposed to be 1 flesh 1 spirit, so that idea is stemming from that original creation. and no, i didnt look that up.

I'm sorry but this is just entirely too vague to comment on and doesn't answer my question at all. Are you saying it's metaphorical? And if you are, can you accept that maybe the story didn't happen at all as told?

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we arent supposed to be grateful, we are supposed to realize that we still sin and ask forgiveness for that.

Sin based on "God's" definition of sin, which can be for example sewing a garment with two kinds of fabric - why should I be asking forgiveness for something that doesn't have any logical reason for being a "sin?" And again, ramp that back up to Adam - why should he have been cast out of the garden and had to spend his life asking for forgiveness for eating a fruit that he didn't understand why he couldn't eat?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Sin based on "God's" definition of sin, which can be for example sewing a garment with two kinds of fabric - why should I be asking forgiveness for something that doesn't have any logical reason for being a "sin?" And again, ramp that back up to Adam - why should he have been cast out of the garden and had to spend his life asking for forgiveness for eating a fruit that he didn't understand why he couldn't eat?

well i think i can answer this. how do you know what God wants or doesnt want? to me, it seems that for that exact time and place, whatever is the right choice that works for you and doesnt cause you to have a guilty conscience, is in fact what God wants. a sin is something you feel remorse for, something you know isnt right. if you feel bad, its a sin. if you dont feel bad, its fine. if you feel like killing your best friend, despite how nonemotional you appear to other people, deep down you really know its a really horrible thing. but God gave us free will, so its your decision to ask for forgiveness or not. with every decision, there is a consequence - good or bad. but its always your decision

think of God as your caring mom or dad. they want the best for you and tells you not to do bad things, but they cant stop you from doing them. whats a loving parent to do??

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Originally posted by Lost Inhibition well i think i can answer this. how do you know what God wants or doesnt want? to me, it seems that for that exact time and place, whatever is the right choice that works for you and doesnt cause you to have a guilty conscience, is in fact what God wants. a sin is something you feel remorse for, something you know isnt right. if you feel bad, its a sin. if you dont feel bad, its fine. if you feel like killing your best friend, despite how nonemotional you appear to other people, deep down you really know its a really horrible thing. but God gave us free will, so its your decision to ask for forgiveness or not. with every decision, there is a consequence - good or bad. but its always your decision think of God as your caring mom or dad. they want the best for you and tells you not to do bad things, but they cant stop you from doing them. whats a loving parent to do??

Okay. While I don't follow this principle myself, I respect that position in its entirety, and if it helps you find your way through life, then by all means, follow it!

I'm not here to debate faith as a way of life, just as a way of explaining the universe.

No matter what your problems are, religion is never the answer. If religious adherents applied the same logic to their everyday activities as they do to their cosmology, I can assure you that every single one of them would be dead.

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Originally posted by Arbiter No matter what your problems are, religion is never the answer. If religious adherents applied the same logic to their everyday activities as they do to their cosmology, I can assure you that every single one of them would be dead.

i do ...and i really mean I DO, i couldnt get throught the day if i didnt

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Originally posted by DigiNut So you can believe that shame is instinctual, but not sex (as you posted recently against evolution)?

no.... and I never said that sex wasnt an instinct, i said it wasnt a simple on/off thing.

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Theorized on what evidence that doesn't come from the Bible?

you asked, i told you. If you want the garden of edens scientific "" location join the other 5 billion people.

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I'm sorry but this is just entirely too vague to comment on and doesn't answer my question at all. Are you saying it's metaphorical? And if you are, can you accept that maybe the story didn't happen at all as told?

You tell ME why God does stuff then

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Sin based on "God's" definition of sin, which can be for example sewing a garment with two kinds of fabric - why should I be asking forgiveness for something that doesn't have any logical reason for being a "sin?" And again, ramp that back up to Adam - why should he have been cast out of the garden and had to spend his life asking for forgiveness for eating a fruit that he didn't understand why he couldn't eat?

Jesus brought a new law. You are referring to levitican law.

I abhor organized religion for the most part because of the hypocritical and contradictory nature of it's structure. In fact it's one of the main causes for war and strife (other than greed) around the world. Look at the Israeli/Pals conflict as one example, and the Indian/Pakistanis as another. Someone else pointed out the Catholic church's seemingly neverending hatred and suppression of TRUTH. I recognized this from an early age, and abandoned the catholic church around age 12.
I also have relatives who believe in the Bible literally instead of realizing that it's essentially a collection of stories meant to teach lessons about morality, and I just have to shake my head...

With all that being said, I still highly respect Jesus and the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) for their teachings. I've been reading a book about how closely related the teachings of these two men actually were. It's writen by a Buddhist monk who worked with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in his civil rights struggles, and also lived through the war in Vietnam.

Anyways, it's called Living Buddha Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

-I've read it twice because it's soooo good.


I need to read some books by the Dalai Lama:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...2081142-1870551

To answer someone's question, Buddhism is to me less about dogma (think Christianity, Judaism, Islam) and more about personal betterment.

p.s. Yes I'm an evolutionist.

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Originally posted by kewlness ok... personally, i am not interested in the creation/evolution debate and don't find it that important. I think the main thing that needs to be focused on is whether the existence of God is real or false. Proving the existence of God, can NEVER BE DONE. You simply can't prove it. God doesn't have ANY proof of His existence for a reason. He wants you to make a choice. This is the main thing in believing in God; you don't believe because you have evidence that He exists. You choose to believe because you have faith in His existence. I could write a 5000 word essay on trying to prove that God exists and I would bet that absolutely NO ONE will believe just because they read my essay. Christians aren't trying to prove that what believe is true; if that is the basis of our beliefs, then NO ONE will believe. Let me give you a story of how I decided to believe in God. Like a lot of you, I was brought up with Christian beliefs and went to Church and a lot of that. As I grew up into my teens, I started doubting everything that had been spoonfed into my mouth. Then I found trance music and was saved (LOL, j/k ignore that last sentence.) But I was really struggling during my teen years with what the purpose of my existence was. There was absolutely no proof of God existing and I felt like I was worshiping some "Jesus" guy and I thought that was pretty BS. A couple years ago though, I went to a seminar thing, and I have forgotten everything that I heard there, except that I should believe in God by faith instead of by evidence. I started doing that, first few weeks it felt like I was praying to nothing. Then I remember once, I started really liking this girl and I asked her out, and got totally rejected and humiliated. That caused me to go through about a half-year depression phase. I was so sad and depressed, it was such a bad time in my life. I started crying to God for help, and I found that I was actually starting to feel better because I realised that I needed to have a dependency on God. My faith in God grew stronger and I found out that the more I depended on God to guide me through life, the more God was revealing Himself to me. And I have counted on God to guide me through my life ever since. Ok, from my long story, basically the point is, God does not reveal Himself to you. You have to look for Him, and only then will you truly find God. God won't open the door unless you knock. A lot of people try to either find the answers to their life, and/or think that if God truly existed, then He would just by some means of divine intervention, tell you that He existed. That is not the POINT OF WHY WE BELIEVE! I looked for God and I had faith in Him that He existed, and only then, did I truly find God.

I totally agree with this, and have walked a similar path. I believe and trust wholeheartedly in the Christian God. I don't like "organized religion", heck, I don't even like referring to this as religion, makes it sound so institutionalized. I do have a belief though, that a higher power created the world and us. I have been having a discussion with a friend of mine for awhile now, and he's about the most logical science-based person in the world, and a lot of you guys in this thread are looking for answers, facts, science. But no matter what we or you throw out, the discussion will never end. As Kewlness said, I believe that God shows us enough for us to make a choice, but because he gives us this choice, there will be many who choose not to follow Him.

I have not personally felt a sudden burst of joy coming straight from God in my life, but I do feel his daily presence working in my life.

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Originally posted by netw3rkd pussy there is no god you just think that so you will feel better im not trying to sound bad to you or anything, because we all have our believes, but i dont believe there is a god if there was, would he / she let me be addicted to meth? or suffer extremly from 9823743 disorders? meh whatever

haha i love this guy

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Originally posted by Orbax no.... and I never said that sex wasnt an instinct, i said it wasnt a simple on/off thing.

You said that asexual specimens could not possibly have evolved into sexually reproductive creatures because sex doesn't just "come naturally"... sex is a biological function. Shame, on the other hand, is an emotional one, and not just any old emotion, but one that requires a specific belief system to be in place in order to exist.

So you tell me, which one is more plausible?

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you asked, i told you. If you want the garden of edens scientific "" location join the other 5 billion people.

Yes, I do want the scientific location. Please show me evidence that is positive, testable, and falsifiable to the contrary. I'm sure you've heard this phrase enough times in the chillout room alone, and yet you conveniently ignore it every time.

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You tell ME why God does stuff then

I do not believe there is enough evidence to show that such a god exists, let alone explain why he/her/it "does stuff." I asked a question, received a vague platitude as an answer, so I pointed that out and asked for clarification - you can't then turn on me and say "well YOU explain it then." I don't think that there IS any logical explanation, which is the reason I brought it up in the first place.

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Jesus brought a new law. You are referring to levitican law.

If we are to accept the fact that a man called Jesus ever did exist, which is a paradigm unique to Christian/Catholic religion, there is still no evidence that he brought anything to this world. Depending on who you ask, Jesus walked the water in 4 or 5 different places; the notion of Christianity didn't even begin until hundreds of years later, at which point it became popular by forcing conversions on other faiths. If Jesus was essentially forgotten by the mainstream population for 500 years, isn't it reasonable to assume that the ones who remembered him (assuming he existed in the first place) played a bit of broken telephone? We all know that oral history gets re-interpreted and twisted over the generations. Even written history does, but oral history has an extreme case of that problem.

I'm neither referring to levitican law or "Jesus'" law. I put the term "God's definition" in quotes to imply that the entire concept is questionable at best, and that the law was written by ordinary humans who started the cult(s).

Why not just say that you believe what you believe and that you don't need scientific proof to be secure in that belief, like so many of the other theists on this forum? If you really need to prove your position, then I'll require evidence as stated above, not dogma, logical fallacies, and confirmation bias.

what kind of theories do the athiest community have for creation? I'm guessing the most wide spread is the Big Bang. Is there any other ideas/theories?

I haven't been following this thread in its entirety, so pardon me if I'm rehashing old points. Let me begin by asking a question of those people devoutly subscribing to a dogmatic religion (primarily Judaism, Christianity, and Islam):

Are the answers your religion gives necessarily objectively true?

If you answered "yes," then:

If you had instead been born into a family which followed a different religion, would you have followed that religion as devoutly?

If you answered "no" to this question, then most likely you're either lying to yourself or you aren't reasoning well. You learned your religion not by deducing it from first principles, but by it being inculcated by your church and family. The same set of circumstances that taught you your current religion would have applied for many other religions. (This argument, of course, doesn't hold for those who were born in one religion, did some searching, and settled on another).

This leaves you with an answer of "yes" to the second question. Then your religion is accepted by faith, and while it's entirely true for you, there is no reason to believe it is objectively true. An objective truth holds for everyone, and many of your truths hold neither for those of other religions or even for yourself had you been born into another religion.

It isn't wrong in itself to adhere to principles which one knows not to be objective. But while it undoubtedly helps people in their personal lives, it cannot be a fulfilling solution for intelligent men and women who care to actually understand the world around them.

The general belief in God is different. I myself have a somewhat nebulous idea of what I think God is, and it happens to work nicely with hinduism, buddhism, zen, tao, and other eastern philosophies. The point is that they are all philosophies, and not strictly religions. Regardless of which family I had been born into, my own inquisitive nature would have brought me to a belief system which allowed for open thought.

I didn't mean for this to be a treatise on religions, so let me be brief.

It seems to me that, for one to adopt a particular belief system, it must be objective and must not clash with everyday observation. In my opinion, many religions already lose their objectivity by providing humans a special place. (For example, in the movie Signs, why should God prefer our survival to that of the alien conquistadors?). Moreover, if the belief seeks to explain things that were merely not understood at the time of its conception, it should be treated as highly suspect. If it then turns around and declares our ability to reason to be its enemy (and even gives it a title, "Science"), then we should be more wary still.

For my part, God is an explanation of why things work the way they do. God doesn't *make* planets orbit each other; the very effects of nature that cause this to happen are a *part* of "God." The fun lies in discovering those aspects of reality that we haven't yet uncovered. If this includes the abilities of humans to perform "miracles" or cause resurrections, then cool, let's keep learning.

This is in no way an attack on anybody's religion, faiths, beliefs, or anything at all. Just my own thoughts.

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Originally posted by djSlain what kind of theories do the athiest community have for creation? I'm guessing the most wide spread is the Big Bang. Is there any other ideas/theories?

Just want to point out again that the big bang is not strictly an "atheist" theory... there are several religious scientists (note: not religion scientists) who reason that God simply set that process in motion.

However, I don't know of any other plausible theories. If anyone else does, it would be interesting to hear them.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Just want to point out again that the big bang is not strictly an "atheist" theory... there are several religious scientists (note: not religion scientists) who reason that God simply set that process in motion. However, I don't know of any other plausible theories. If anyone else does, it would be interesting to hear them.

To be honest, as a Christian, I really do not know at all what exactly happened. Genesis could have been a literal or a symbolic account of what i said earlier. But I do think that everything WAS created by God because it is stated clearly in the Bible. But the rest, with all the adam and eve stuff, I am not too sure if it actually literally occured or not, but I am leaning towards that it happened.

I like this discussion... It is mature, well-thought out, and no one is flaming each other for what they believe in. I personally, do not dislike anyone else's beliefs that are different from me.



Just another topic to put in mind for discussion:
Let's say, you see a six year old girl getting raped by some 30 year old bastard. Now, you know that is JUST WRONG. But what causes that feeling inside of you that just tells you that it's wrong? Your concsience? Your psyche?
As a Christian, I believe it is our conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. I don't believe it is our mind telling us what what is right or wrong, because if you compare humans to animals, we actually believe in what is morally right and what is morally wrong, whereas animals just do what it is best for them or what is best in order to pass down their genes for future generations.
Physically, I think humans are just a more highly sophisticated, intelligent, and advanced living being. But you must admit that there is something distinctive about humans, not that we are smarter and more capable, but we seem to have a moral sense of what is right and wrong.
For you atheists, what would you think accounts for this sense of what is good and bad? Your brain? Or is it something else??

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Originally posted by kewlness Just another topic to put in mind for discussion: Let's say, you see a six year old girl getting raped by some 30 year old bastard. Now, you know that is JUST WRONG. But what causes that feeling inside of you that just tells you that it's wrong? Your concsience? Your psyche? As a Christian, I believe it is our conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. I don't believe it is our mind telling us what what is right or wrong, because if you compare humans to animals, we actually believe in what is morally right and what is morally wrong, whereas animals just do what it is best for them or what is best in order to pass down their genes for future generations. Physically, I think humans are just a more highly sophisticated, intelligent, and advanced living being. But you must admit that there is something distinctive about humans, not that we are smarter and more capable, but we seem to have a moral sense of what is right and wrong. For you atheists, what would you think accounts for this sense of what is good and bad? Your brain? Or is it something else??

It's an intelligent point for sure, but I'm not really sure if "conscience" is natural or instinctive to humans. Obviously the 30 year old bastard raping the 6 year old girl doesn't think it's wrong. I think it's wrong, you think it's wrong, but I also think that a big part of it is just what we've been taught by parents, religion, school, even society in general. Being Jewish, I have a "conscience" sometimes eating a cheeseburger, but I'm almost certain that conscience isn't natural, and I can also say that it fades over time. And if I can be "desensitized" to anything, then it stands to reason I could have been "sensitized" to it at one point. Just look at what feminism has done - most men used to think very little of slapping a woman's ass, but today we've been brought up with the intrinsic "knowledge" that it's sexual harassment (and mind you, this is not even the case in every culture).

I don't think that morals can be measured on an absolute standard... the only somewhat objective thing I can go by is whether or not a person's behaviour hurts another person. But then again, what is hurt? Physical pain is absolute (for the most part), but emotional hurt is relative to the person being "hurt." Children are often very destructive and lack empathy or even self-awareness, they know if they've been hurt but have no idea if they've hurt someone else.

As a normal human being raised in society, I will never know for sure whether or not such things are instinctive. Aboriginal tribes would often war with each other for territory, and not really consider it murder. But even tribes are a kind of society. I don't know, can we find a jungle-book-esque character raised in solitude and having never seen another human? Only then could we get a glimpse of how instinctive conscience is. I think Descartes tried to research this but wasn't all too successful.

Maybe matter has its own built-in consciousness; after all, cognitive scientists are still at a loss to really explain what consciousness is, how "organic" matter is conscious and "inorganic" matter isn't. So maybe consciousness is linked and we have an intuitive sense of the joy or pain we inflict on other people - but that's just speculation, there's no basis of proof for any of that.

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Originally posted by kewlness To be honest, as a Christian, I really do not know at all what exactly happened. Genesis could have been a literal or a symbolic account of what i said earlier. But I do think that everything WAS created by God because it is stated clearly in the Bible. But the rest, with all the adam and eve stuff, I am not too sure if it actually literally occured or not, but I am leaning towards that it happened. I like this discussion... It is mature, well-thought out, and no one is flaming each other for what they believe in. I personally, do not dislike anyone else's beliefs that are different from me. Just another topic to put in mind for discussion: Let's say, you see a six year old girl getting raped by some 30 year old bastard. Now, you know that is JUST WRONG. But what causes that feeling inside of you that just tells you that it's wrong? Your concsience? Your psyche? As a Christian, I believe it is our conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. I don't believe it is our mind telling us what what is right or wrong, because if you compare humans to animals, we actually believe in what is morally right and what is morally wrong, whereas animals just do what it is best for them or what is best in order to pass down their genes for future generations. Physically, I think humans are just a more highly sophisticated, intelligent, and advanced living being. But you must admit that there is something distinctive about humans, not that we are smarter and more capable, but we seem to have a moral sense of what is right and wrong. For you atheists, what would you think accounts for this sense of what is good and bad? Your brain? Or is it something else??

It's an interesting point you bring up. I don't believe there's a clear distinction between what we call morality and what animals use for survival.

As a comparison, think of psychology. Why is there a "Pavlov's Dog" but no "So-and-so's Human?" It's because the variety of a dog's response is quite limited. We know in advance how the dog will most likely act. While this cannot be said in general for humans, it does apply more and more as we observe less and less intelligent people. We can much better predict the outcome of, say, poking someone suffering from Down's syndrome than poking a Mensa member.

It's a feature of intelligence that it's bearer has more control over how s/he responds to any situation. In this way, humans are not fundamentally different from animals any more than Michael Jordan is fundamentally different from you or me. No matter how large a degree the difference, the same rules apply.

I'm in agreement with DigiNut's points about our sense of morality being largely inculcated. There are instinctual preferences we have (we don't want to die, we don't want our relatives or friends to die) just like there are for any creature. But like he said, even something as "clearly" heinous as murder isn't globally considered taboo. Think about how easily you could kill if you were at war. (And if you couldn't, realize that with sufficient intelligence, any and all senses of morality can be altered or overcome by willpower).

I'm actually applying to Ph.D. programs in the cognitive sciences at MIT and Stanford this year, so I love this kind of debate .

dig, I was answering that way cuz I thought you actually wanted to know. You were looking for something to attack. Anyways. Read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". it doesnt talk about even god until 3/4 way through the book. That combined with "The Abolition of Man" (also CS Lewis) are the two most influential books Ive ever read for deciding on God in my life. More influential than the Bible included in that.

I almost went to a private Christian Uni last winter because they offered a religous studies with an emphasis on C.S. Lewis. THan I decided on Law School, because I do have to live in this world hehe.

Anyone else read these? Your thoughts?

for those who havent its a treat. CS Lewis is a very intelligent man, and its a fun read regardless of your beliefs.

PS: Lewis tends to blow the entire "morality is taught to us" thing out of the water.

interesting note: WHy in all of human history has not 1 culture praised the greedy man, the selfish man, or the man who runs away in battle?

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Originally posted by Orbax dig, I was answering that way cuz I thought you actually wanted to know.

Huh? Your answers didn't say anything, that's why I "attacked" them.

I don't know where the guys from the political forum went, but it's too frustrating for me to continue to debunk the same straw-man arguments and circular reasoning in every post. How can people be so bloody persistent in their fallacies? It's gotten stale, anyone else want to give it a shot or have you given up?

Incidentally, that CS Lewis book has been known for turning devout Christians away from Christianity, so I'm surprised you're using it as a source.
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I have been following this thread for a few days, and felt like i had something to add.
I think that a basic point that many of you are assuming is that all churches and church leaders personify a religion, and whatever they do or say is what that religion is all about. I find this to be quite untrue. You assume that just because there have been religious wars makes religion bad. Also not true. This just means that people who started the wars are fighting in that religion's name, but that does not make what they are doing right. They assume what they are doing is right, and so fight in that religion's name. Just because they are doing this doesn't mean that they should be fighting and killing in thier religion's name. This seems to be a big problem in society today. People make decisions about religions based on the words and actions of the members of these religions. This is a bad idea, mostly because no one is perfect and cannot consistantly do a good job representing thier religion. To really find out about a religion, I think it is a much better idea to actually learn about a religion's ideas and its stands on issues from its religious writings, such as the Bible, and from reliable sources such as books that have been painstakingly researched and crosschecked by many reliable people, such as The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. I just don't see how people can make life changing decisions about their or other people's religions just from what they heard from one or two people and take it as reliable fact.

Another thing, it was commented how Christianity didn't start until hudreds of years after Christ's life. This is not true at all. Christianity started spreading quite quickly after Christ's death, and the first churches were started only a few years later, so the points made about Jesus being "forgotten" for a few hundred years and then his followers "playing a bit of broken telephone" has no real basis.

Just my two cents.

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Originally posted by Orbax interesting note: WHy in all of human history has not 1 culture praised the greedy man, the selfish man, or the man who runs away in battle?

Because all of these things are directly detrimental to the well-being of the society as a whole. Such traits are frowned upon by societies, not by individuals. Plenty of people are selfish, greedy, and cowardly. As noted above, given sufficient intelligence, an individual can in fact generate any value system he wants purely by willpower.

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