TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Palestinian Mother Turns Suicide Bomber for Hamas
Pages (6): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 »

Let them have the Jewish state. But let refugees return. The situation sucks but that's how it is.

No you don't know why Palestinians care so much.

Relax a little? The 9 years of Oslo was relax a little from the first intifada. Not to mention the 28 years before the first intifada, which was even more relaxed from Gaza and the West Bank than after the first intifada.

It is the responsibility of the Occupier to protect the human rights of the occupied. Those who are suspects should be arrested and given fair trial and not killed and not bombing the whole street to get a suspect. Collective punishment is illegal, so are extrajudicial assassinations. And putting quotation marks on top of the word occupier just shows that you are an extreme zionist whether you like it or not.

Accepting 22% of the original land as a palestinian state is enough initiative. There was more but I won't go through with this now.

Palestinian, your posts are so full of contradiction and fallacies that I can't even begin to imagine how your mind works.

First, you concede that ALL the killings on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, are actions from extremist groups that need to be stopped. Then, you go on to justify the Palestinian killings and suicide bombings and say that they're somehow understandable or necessary.

You concede that much of the extremist terror (on the Palestinian side) is state-supported, and yet you claim minutes later that it is merely the result of disgruntled oppressed individuals because of Israeli "terror".

You insist that the right of return is the primary issue, despite the obvious knowledge that a majority of Palestinians don't want it and would accept compensation in its place. You proceed to say it's the "principle of the thing" and claim that the extremist groups don't care about ROR in spite of the fact that it's #1 on most of their priority lists.

You act like right of return is some sort of god-given right (most likely because the UN decided it, which is ironic considering how much you hate the UN), and to substantiate your claim, say that the displaced Jews have the right of return even though they clearly DON'T (have there been any agreements signed which give them rights to land in Iran, Egypt, etc...?)

You accept the Jewish need for a Jewish state, yet insist upon them making arrangements that could very clearly turn it into an Arab state in a very short time.

You say that the occupier has the responsibility to protect the rights of the occupied even when the occupied is clearly violating the rights of the occupier - the Palestinian suicide bombers have only hit a small proportion of military targets. Okay, I guess this isn't contradictory but it is hypocritical.

You say that putting "occupier" in quotes makes me an "extreme zionist" - what on earth is your logical basis for that?

In the most blunt terms, you say you want peace, but that the Palestinians shouldn't have to stop their killings until they are given everything they want (which by the way, is pretty much a definition for war).

It's a neverending loop with you. You make whatever generalizations seem necessary to prove your point, even when they totally contradict generalizations you made before. Further, it bears emphasizing that they ARE all generalizations, which I guess is how you think you can get away with making contradictory ones - aside from scattered reports of disgruntled Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian civilians (which none of us are denying), you show little evidence to support your view of the Palestinian civilian "public opinion." To be honest, it really seems like you just want the elimination of the Jewish state, which is what all the "Zionists" worry about, and is essentially the reason why peace talks down there have been so futile.

I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either! The point is, Israel owns the land NOW, they are in power NOW, and Palestine and the UN are basically bullying them into "sharing their toys." I don't condone violence on EITHER side. BOTH sides have plenty of blood on their hands. But your prejudice against the Israelis is totally obvious by the fact that you'll say anything just to cast the Palestinians in a positive light.

Go ahead and launch whatever ad hominem attack you want against me - this is pointless, trying to have any rational discussion with you is about as fulfilling as the peace talks in the middle east, because everytime you don't like something you hear you go off on a rant about how we're all Zionist and Prejudiced.

quote:

I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either!

actually, the jews do have a god-given right to the land. it is said many times in the bible. through prophecy, that israel after losing her land to Babylon and other invaders would someday get it back. anyways jews have been in that area for many thousands of years before any muslims arrived.

here are some passages...

Isa. 9:12
The Arameans on the east and the Philistines on the west; And they devour Israel with gaping jaws.

^^^^just comparison to gaza, west back, and jerusalem....

Exodus 4:
22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

^^^^exactly as it says. Israel is my firstborn son, and I am his father. let the son go, or i will kill yours.

Exodus 7:
16 Then say to him, 'The LORD , the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened.

^^^^God of who?? Let "what" people go?

next passage refers to much of the secular world...

look to next post.

Exodus 5:
2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD , that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

Secularist passage. why believe that god is real. if u can't see him, u dont know him as pharoah did not. if u cant see, then he muct not be real. then why do many people believe there relatives to be in the sky, or as ghost. many people believe their relatives live on, yet they cant see their relatives. but they believe anyways. kind of the same way with god.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Refering to Jesus in the end, who was to open the last 7 scrolls on the earth during the tribulation of the antichrist. these scrolls are essentially disasters and plagues on the earth. only jesus himself is worthy to open these scrolls. and he does, and the people in heaven worship him.

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

died on the cross in exchange to satisfy god's anger to our sin. jesus died to purchase us for heaven. if this didnt happen, there would be nothing we could do to save us from hell. yet, jesus came, died, took away our sin, so that we could go to heaven. all throughout the bible, god says, only the rightious can enter heaven. we ourselves cant become rightious because of our sinful nature. and thats what god's son died for.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SOME CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH DOCTRINES, in the christian holy book.

hands up for DigiNut

i wish i could have expressed myself that good. great post.

quote:

Originally posted by Heinz actually, the jews do have a god-given right to the land...

Yes I suppose you're right in the biblical sense. I think both Jews and Arabs feel that they have a divine right to that land according to their religion?

I shouldn't have used the term "god given", that was misleading. What I really meant was that if you take religion out of the equation completely, if we could all just step back for a moment and stop looking at it as a Holy land and just look at it as a piece of property, then whoever is occupying that property is its legal owner, unless someone else can provide a lease agreement or some other piece of evidence that proves otherwise.

In a purely historical sense, it's kind of hard to tell who had first dibs on it. I mean, yes, most recently it was the now-Palestinian people that were there before the Jews. But before the Palestinians were around, the land was occupied by different Jews. And before that, it was occupied by different Arabs. I mean it just goes on and on and on and we could argue for the next 7 years about who was there first but it really wouldn't get us anywhere. The fact is that people have always been fighting over that land throughout history, lord only knows why, the only real difference between now and then is that now there's a whole big international political stink over it, whereas in previous days nobody from outside the middle east really gave a rat's ass.

So instead of arguing, we have to look at it objectively and say okay, Israel is there now, they're doing a pretty decent job of running the place in spite of the ever-present infighting between Jews and Arabs, so why not just forget about who used to own what and stop killing each other? Israel tames its IDF, Palestine stops paying "martyred" families and teaching hate in schools, and everybody just keeps living exactly where they are right now and shuts up about genocide and terrorism and the UN and its pompous nagging-parent politics? Oh sure, the extremists don't want that, so how about instead of catering to their every whim, we treat the extremists like every other country treats its criminals and throw them in jail or have their naked asses whipped in a big public spectacle?

I know it will never happen but that's really the "best" solution. Everybody just shut the fuck up, put down your guns and bombs, and go back to living life like normal people do.

Thanks Flotser.

The Right to Choose

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Palestinian, your posts are so full of contradiction and fallacies that I can't even begin to imagine how your mind works. First, you concede that ALL the killings on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, are actions from extremist groups that need to be stopped. Then, you go on to justify the Palestinian killings and suicide bombings and say that they're somehow understandable or necessary. You concede that much of the extremist terror (on the Palestinian side) is state-supported, and yet you claim minutes later that it is merely the result of disgruntled oppressed individuals because of Israeli "terror". You insist that the right of return is the primary issue, despite the obvious knowledge that a majority of Palestinians don't want it and would accept compensation in its place. You proceed to say it's the "principle of the thing" and claim that the extremist groups don't care about ROR in spite of the fact that it's #1 on most of their priority lists. You act like right of return is some sort of god-given right (most likely because the UN decided it, which is ironic considering how much you hate the UN), and to substantiate your claim, say that the displaced Jews have the right of return even though they clearly DON'T (have there been any agreements signed which give them rights to land in Iran, Egypt, etc...?) You accept the Jewish need for a Jewish state, yet insist upon them making arrangements that could very clearly turn it into an Arab state in a very short time. You say that the occupier has the responsibility to protect the rights of the occupied even when the occupied is clearly violating the rights of the occupier - the Palestinian suicide bombers have only hit a small proportion of military targets. Okay, I guess this isn't contradictory but it is hypocritical. You say that putting "occupier" in quotes makes me an "extreme zionist" - what on earth is your logical basis for that? In the most blunt terms, you say you want peace, but that the Palestinians shouldn't have to stop their killings until they are given everything they want (which by the way, is pretty much a definition for war). It's a neverending loop with you. You make whatever generalizations seem necessary to prove your point, even when they totally contradict generalizations you made before. Further, it bears emphasizing that they ARE all generalizations, which I guess is how you think you can get away with making contradictory ones - aside from scattered reports of disgruntled Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian civilians (which none of us are denying), you show little evidence to support your view of the Palestinian civilian "public opinion." To be honest, it really seems like you just want the elimination of the Jewish state, which is what all the "Zionists" worry about, and is essentially the reason why peace talks down there have been so futile. I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either! The point is, Israel owns the land NOW, they are in power NOW, and Palestine and the UN are basically bullying them into "sharing their toys." I don't condone violence on EITHER side. BOTH sides have plenty of blood on their hands. But your prejudice against the Israelis is totally obvious by the fact that you'll say anything just to cast the Palestinians in a positive light. Go ahead and launch whatever ad hominem attack you want against me - this is pointless, trying to have any rational discussion with you is about as fulfilling as the peace talks in the middle east, because everytime you don't like something you hear you go off on a rant about how we're all Zionist and Prejudiced.

Diginut, your posts are so full of ignorance and misunderstanding. You completely miss out on what I'm trying to say. You can't begin to imagine how my mind works because it seems you're too slow.

First, I know that the killings of civilians on the Palestinian side are by extremists. The killings on the Israeli side are also by extremists i.e. the IDF. I do not justify any of the killing from any side. And I don't think they're necessary. From the Palestinian side, understandable, yes. They are understandable. Zionists are either incapable or unwilling to separate understanding from justifying. I'll go for the latter.

MERELY the result of oppressed individuals??? Are you okay, Diginut? Oppression has been the cause of terror throughout the world and throughout history. All you need is oppression for terrorist behaviour. And putting quotation marks around Israeli "terror" again shows that you are a zionist. Face it. Why the quotation marks? You don't believe that Israeli terror exists? If you do, then why the quotation marks?

Compensation is part of the ROR. I have no problem with compensating them. But again, they have the CHOICE. If you're so scared of what they choose, then you obviously don't trust that one little study that told you most don't want to return. The ROR being number one on Hamas' list doesn't make sense to me. These people in Gaza are trying to survive, they barely even have contacts with the Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon. They've been disconnected from them for 50 years. Occupation is their main issue right now.

I may have issues with the UN, but I don't hate it. I think it's a step in the right direction. I support the UN Charter and International Law. Most of all, I support human rights, be they God given or not. Jews do have the right of return. I didn't say that there were agreements. The Arab puppet regimes don't won't grant them that right. But they do have the right. Even under UN resolution 194, they have it.

Yes I do accept a Jewish state, but I also insist on arrangements to solve the refugee problem based on the ROR and not negating it. Yes, this is contradictory, but it's gotta be solved.

The Occupier has a responsibility to not inflict collective punishment and carry out extrajudicial assassinations. The occupied also has a responsibility to stop suicide attacks. Just because the occupied is violating civilian life, doesn't mean the occupier should do so as well.

Putting quotation marks around a word shows that you don't believe that word is appropriate. Do I have to teach you English on this forum? Extreme Zionists don't believe that there is an occupation. They don't believe that Israeli terror exists. And you put quotation marks on both words.

You obviously don't believe in human rights or international law. You want people to forget about their human rights because someone else in in power now. Well, we don't give up so easily. Israel owns that land now. Okay, but give refugees the right to choose if they want compensation or return. THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut ...First, you concede that ALL the killings on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, are actions from extremist groups that need to be stopped. Then, you go on to justify the Palestinian killings and suicide bombings and say that they're somehow understandable or necessary.

IT is UNDERSTANDABLE and to them it has become necessary. I condemn both actions by these terrorists and state terrorists.... however, there are REASONS as to why these people are doing these horrible things...I dont justify it, but you cant deny their struggle and they feel this is a way to fight the oppressors....it has come to this level where people have gone insane to the point that they hate so much, they dont even care who they kill.

Youseem to just look at the ACT of terrorism and not WHY its done. Ignoring the root is actually the problem in this fiasco.

quote:

You concede that much of the extremist terror (on the Palestinian side) is state-supported, and yet you claim minutes later that it is merely the result of disgruntled oppressed individuals because of Israeli "terror".

I dont know what palestinian said.. but i can assure you.. both the IDF and hamas are responsible for these young suicide bombers...whether indirect or direct..their affects,influece, and actions result in vulnerable and naive kids willing to blow themselves. Its a very complex issue, and you seem to be throwing out the multitude of factors that come into play.

quote:

You insist that the right of return is the primary issue, despite the obvious knowledge that a majority of Palestinians don't want it and would accept compensation in its place. You proceed to say it's the "principle of the thing" and claim that the extremist groups don't care about ROR in spite of the fact that it's #1 on most of their priority lists.

Youfail to understand WHY these refugeees feel this way... it becuase the current situation in Israel and palestine are not so good.

Lets say Palestine was formed... and ISrael said...you guys can come back and try to re-establish yourselves in what you once called a homeland.. then i think much would change.

If Jews can flock to Israel,as they were "refugees" for thousands of years and see ISrael as " a right of return"... why do u think palestinians wont do the same if the desired option was given to them???

quote:

You act like right of return is some sort of god-given right (most likely because the UN decided it, which is ironic considering how much you hate the UN), and to substantiate your claim, say that the displaced Jews have the right of return even though they clearly DON'T (have there been any agreements signed which give them rights to land in Iran, Egypt, etc...?)

THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT OF RETURN! you cant just displace a people, force them out of their homes, claiming that your GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT grandfather used to live there. If the greeks came and conqured Iran 50 years ago becuase Alexander the great did the same thing thousands of years ago...and my parents were forced out of their home.. i would want my nationhood back. i would want to see on the world map an Iranian nation that I can call home. This is just exemplary.

If a native indian came to your doorstep and told you his great gradnfathers Tipee was here....would you leave??? IS that fair? Thats essentiallywhat the Zionists did to the palestinians in 1948.

quote:

You say that the occupier has the responsibility to protect the rights of the occupied even when the occupied is clearly violating the rights of the occupier - the Palestinian suicide bombers have only hit a small proportion of military targets. Okay, I guess this isn't contradictory but it is hypocritical.

"EVEN WHEN THE OCCUPIED IS CLEARLY VIOLATING THE RIGHTS OF THE OCCUPIER"!!!!!!!!

Did you read what you wrote????? Occupation itself is disgusting and oppressive..IT IS ILLEGFAL.. it shoudnt even be taking place....how can you expect someone to respect you when you control every aspect of their lives and humiliate their existence???

You seem to be justifying occupation now by criticizing the actions of the occupied and giving the occupier "RIGHTS".

They have NO RIGHT to be there to begin with.

quote:

You say that putting "occupier" in quotes makes me an "extreme zionist" - what on earth is your logical basis for that?

To me, when you put "occupier" in quotes...it is implying that it is not an occupation....which it clearly is.

quote:

In the most blunt terms, you say you want peace, but that the Palestinians shouldn't have to stop their killings until they are given everything they want (which by the way, is pretty much a definition for war).

Rocks, sticks, and suicide bombers against the worlds 5th strongest miltary...nice war

I beleive the palestinians should FIGHT for their FREEDOM. Unfortunately... this is the reality of occupation....the Natives also killed children whent hey fought against the coloniasists. People become angry and desperate and insanity starts to kick in.. now youve got mafia like groups such as hamas gaining support becuase the palestinians are fed hate propaganda by people that ISrael helped bring into power unintentionally. Not only that.. but palestinians are brought up in hate and fear...many messed up children with dead uncles and brothers that have been shot for whatever reason.

quote:

It's a neverending loop with you. You make whatever generalizations seem necessary to prove your point, even when they totally contradict generalizations you made before. Further, it bears emphasizing that they ARE all generalizations, which I guess is how you think you can get away with making contradictory ones - aside from scattered reports of disgruntled Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian civilians (which none of us are denying), you show little evidence to support your view of the Palestinian civilian "public opinion." To be honest, it really seems like you just want the elimination of the Jewish state, which is what all the "Zionists" worry about, and is essentially the reason why peace talks down there have been so futile.

If youve read his posts earlier... he has fully backed up his cases with links and quotes from respected sources. He is palestinian.. has lived in palestine... and has better knowledge about the plaesitnian mindset than probably most of us here.

quote:

I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either!

The palestinians do have a right to that land becuase they are and were the INDEGINOUS population for centuries. Please give your reasons as to why they dont deserve that land??

quote:

The point is, Israel owns the land NOW, they are in power NOW, and Palestine and the UN are basically bullying them into "sharing their toys." I don't condone violence on EITHER side. BOTH sides have plenty of blood on their hands. But your prejudice against the Israelis is totally obvious by the fact that you'll say anything just to cast the Palestinians in a positive light.

The point is...Israel is TRYING TO OWN MORE LAND.. by settling the west bank and GAzA, building a wall that digs deeper into palestinian land, and occupying a whole population.

Again.. he does not condone the suicide bombers...if you read his previous posts... he is against killing innocents.
Both sides do have plenty of blood.. but the israeli side has FOUR times more blood on their hands than the palestinians do.

quote:

Go ahead and launch whatever ad hominem attack you want against me - this is pointless, trying to have any rational discussion with you is about as fulfilling as the peace talks in the middle east, because everytime you don't like something you hear you go off on a rant about how we're all Zionist and Prejudiced.

In all honesty diginut, you seem to be doing the exact same thing. Your patronizing tone and demeanor is only a relfection of how you argue yourself. You try to use strong english to help strengthen your argument... but it still hasnt changed the validity of the content you presented.

Heinz, in the Old Testament, God made a covenant with His people. In the New Testament, Jesus makes a NEW covenant. And the old one becomes obsolete. This is what Christian Zionists fail to see.
read this carefully:

http://www.al-bushra.org/promisedland/labibkobti1.html

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King If a native indian came to your doorstep and told you his great gradnfathers Tipee was here....would you leave??? IS that fair? Thats essentiallywhat the Zionists did to the palestinians in 1948.

I've stopped reading after this line.
maybe you should open a history book and read what exactly happend in 1948.

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser I've stopped reading after this line. maybe you should open an history book and read what exactly happend in 1948.

This example has been reiterated by Norman Finkelstein...a JEWSIH supporter of human rights. I will take his KNOWLEDGE over your "history" books anyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King This example has been reiterated by Norman Finkelstein...a JEWSIH supporter of human rights. I will take his KNOWLEDGE over your "history" books anyday.

lol


man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser lol

Exaclty what i was expecting...so informative!

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser lol man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

You are trying to spell out a word for me...yet it is spelled incorrectly.

Similar to the zionist mentality...it is flawed.

I'm not going to respond to most of what you wrote, Cyrus (or anything at all that Palestinian wrote), but a few things should be addressed:

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King If Jews can flock to Israel,as they were "refugees" for thousands of years and see ISrael as " a right of return"... why do u think palestinians wont do the same if the desired option was given to them???

It was never my view that Israel was a "right of return" for the Jews... however, you said it yourself, the Jews were refugees and didn't have a Jewish state to go to, whereas the Arabs have over 20 Arab states to go to. Am I supposed to feel sorry for them?

quote:

THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT OF RETURN! you cant just displace a people, force them out of their homes, claiming that your GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT grandfather used to live there. If the greeks came and conqured Iran 50 years ago becuase Alexander the great did the same thing thousands of years ago...and my parents were forced out of their home.. i would want my nationhood back. i would want to see on the world map an Iranian nation that I can call home. This is just exemplary.

So... it's okay if someone's grandfather lived there, but not if their "great great great great great great great great" grandfather lived there? Honestly, what's the difference, where do you draw the line? Where is the right of return for the Jews in the 20 other Arab states? Do you see them blowing things up in Egypt because they want their land back, demanding Egyptian citizenship and a home to live in?

quote:

If a native indian came to your doorstep and told you his great gradnfathers Tipee was here....would you leave??? IS that fair? Thats essentiallywhat the Zionists did to the palestinians in 1948.

And it is exactly what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis now! What's the difference?

quote:

Did you read what you wrote????? Occupation itself is disgusting and oppressive..IT IS ILLEGFAL.. it shoudnt even be taking place....how can you expect someone to respect you when you control every aspect of their lives and humiliate their existence???

It's an occupation, but not an "illegal" one. Frankly I can hardly blame them for having a military occupation on those territories when citizens from those territories are trying to blow them up? Yes, it's humiliating. Yes, it's oppressive. I agree with you. But if they want to be treated respectfully, they should be respectable.

quote:

You seem to be justifying occupation now by criticizing the actions of the occupied.

Pretty much yes... when the "occupied" appear to still be fighting the same war that should have been over 50 years ago, what choice do they have?

quote:

Rocks, sticks, and suicide bombers against the worlds 5th strongest miltary...nice war

Such a horrible mismatch... and yet, Israel has refrained from completely obliterating the Palestinian people, which it could have done years ago. Does this sound like a people who are out to destroy and humiliate the Palestinians?

I hate to break it to you, but "levelling the playing field" is merely one of those communist/socialist doctrines that managed to make it into mainstream society through feminism and affirmative action years ago. It's not a universal principle, I don't believe in it, and a lot of other people don't either - if the Palestinians are so weak against such a strong army, then the simple solution would be to surrender because they are ridiculously outclassed. This has been done many times throughout history! There's a reason why we have words in our dictionary like "surrender" and "truce".

quote:

If youve read his posts earlier... he has fully backed up his cases with links and quotes from respected sources. He is palestinian.. has lived in palestine... and has better knowledge about the plaesitnian mindset than probably most of us here.

He hasn't backed up anything. Being Palestinian does not make him an expert on all Palestinians any more than my being Canadian makes me an expert on all Canadians. In the most simple sense, it's impossible to generalize for all the Palestinians anyway. The only links he's posted are links to various "tragedies", many of which were printed by biased Arabic news sources like Al Jazeera and put a very weird spin on the story. Even so, I have no problem believing that Israelis are doing a lot of killing of their own, but that proves nothing in the context of this argument.

quote:

The palestinians do have a right to that land becuase they are and were the INDEGINOUS population for centuries.

And the Jews were the indigenous population before that. Like I said, you can go on and on and on back through history, but in the end it's all just speculation. Focus on the present and the future, not the past.

quote:

The point is...Israel is TRYING TO OWN MORE LAND.. by settling the west bank and GAzA, building a wall that digs deeper into palestinian land, and occupying a whole population.

As far as I can recall from various previous peace talks, Israel was more than willing to give up that land in exchange for the elimination of Palestinian terror. Unfortunately, without the "right of return", this wasn't enough. Fine, but don't criticize Israel for keeping their bargaining chips - what would you do? Throw it all away in the blind hope that the terror will magically stop? Israelis fear that the Arabs in Palestine simply want them wiped off the face of the earth, and to be completely honest, the Palestinians haven't done much to prove otherwise. Prove to Israel that their fear is unfounded, and they may start to bend a little more.

quote:

Again.. he does not condone the suicide bombers...if you read his previous posts... he is against killing innocents.

The essential substance of my criticism against him was that he says one thing in one post and something completely different in another post. In one post, he is against the killing of innocents - in another post, he thinks the suicide bombers are completely justified.

quote:

Both sides do have plenty of blood.. but the israeli side has FOUR times more blood on their hands than the palestinians do.

Now THAT I'd like to see your source on.

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

hey, here is a solution for you guys:

Since the Israelis and the Palestinians can not come to any negotiated treaty to ensure peace, but they both desire it, why not do something that would solve this barrier?

Obviously some sides are very heated about this, I don't think you can find such pationate and unwielding debates on any other political issue to be honest.

What is needed is for both parties to "cool" down for a bit, get some cool heads.

How about the Israelis move back to Israel and leave the Palestinians alone and the Palestinians stay where they are and leave the Israelis alone?

Wow what a brilliant idea!

But how would you go about seperating such strong-hearted rivals?

Well I know! They could just build a big wall and physically seperate the two sides, now wouldn't that be swell?!








...
oh and btw in Camp David, Barak offered the Palestinians $60 billion to accomadate their demand for a right of return, and offered also reunification of families. $60 billion is a whole junk of money anywhere in the world but the USA, its 50% of the Israeli GDP!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either!

It's a common mistake to consider Zionism a religious ideology. Instead it's a very very pragmatic down-to-earth movement that was drawing conclusons from the hard reality that was Europe in the 19th century. Nothing more. By emphasizing on the historical / religious aspect people seek to show the irrationality of Israel's foundation. They deliberately misinterpret the Zionist movement, ignoring its secular nature and keep bullshitting about "god given right". I'm not blaming you DigiNut, I just wanna show how this term is being misused based on pure ignorance.

As for Cyrus and "Palestinian", you make me smile. Keep trying, guys!

Over 2000 Palestinians killed

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm not going to respond to most of what you wrote, Cyrus (or anything at all that Palestinian wrote), but a few things should be addressed: It was never my view that Israel was a "right of return" for the Jews... however, you said it yourself, the Jews were refugees and didn't have a Jewish state to go to, whereas the Arabs have over 20 Arab states to go to. Am I supposed to feel sorry for them? So... it's okay if someone's grandfather lived there, but not if their "great great great great great great great great" grandfather lived there? Honestly, what's the difference, where do you draw the line? Where is the right of return for the Jews in the 20 other Arab states? Do you see them blowing things up in Egypt because they want their land back, demanding Egyptian citizenship and a home to live in? And it is exactly what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis now! What's the difference? It's an occupation, but not an "illegal" one. Frankly I can hardly blame them for having a military occupation on those territories when citizens from those territories are trying to blow them up? Yes, it's humiliating. Yes, it's oppressive. I agree with you. But if they want to be treated respectfully, they should be respectable. Pretty much yes... when the "occupied" appear to still be fighting the same war that should have been over 50 years ago, what choice do they have? Such a horrible mismatch... and yet, Israel has refrained from completely obliterating the Palestinian people, which it could have done years ago. Does this sound like a people who are out to destroy and humiliate the Palestinians? I hate to break it to you, but "levelling the playing field" is merely one of those communist/socialist doctrines that managed to make it into mainstream society through feminism and affirmative action years ago. It's not a universal principle, I don't believe in it, and a lot of other people don't either - if the Palestinians are so weak against such a strong army, then the simple solution would be to surrender because they are ridiculously outclassed. This has been done many times throughout history! There's a reason why we have words in our dictionary like "surrender" and "truce". He hasn't backed up anything. Being Palestinian does not make him an expert on all Palestinians any more than my being Canadian makes me an expert on all Canadians. In the most simple sense, it's impossible to generalize for all the Palestinians anyway. The only links he's posted are links to various "tragedies", many of which were printed by biased Arabic news sources like Al Jazeera and put a very weird spin on the story. Even so, I have no problem believing that Israelis are doing a lot of killing of their own, but that proves nothing in the context of this argument. And the Jews were the indigenous population before that. Like I said, you can go on and on and on back through history, but in the end it's all just speculation. Focus on the present and the future, not the past. As far as I can recall from various previous peace talks, Israel was more than willing to give up that land in exchange for the elimination of Palestinian terror. Unfortunately, without the "right of return", this wasn't enough. Fine, but don't criticize Israel for keeping their bargaining chips - what would you do? Throw it all away in the blind hope that the terror will magically stop? Israelis fear that the Arabs in Palestine simply want them wiped off the face of the earth, and to be completely honest, the Palestinians haven't done much to prove otherwise. Prove to Israel that their fear is unfounded, and they may start to bend a little more. The essential substance of my criticism against him was that he says one thing in one post and something completely different in another post. In one post, he is against the killing of innocents - in another post, he thinks the suicide bombers are completely justified. Now THAT I'd like to see your source on.

No one is asking for your sympathy to Palestinian refugees. Just because there are many Arab countries doesn't mean anything. They're not Jordanian, not Lebanese, not Kuwaiti, not Iraqi. They are Palestinians. You should confess how much of a racist you are, Diginut.

The Arab Jews do have a right to return to their Arab countries. They don't need to be blowing anything up. They still have that right. Don't deny them their right, Diginut. I understand they don't want to go back, but they still have that right.

It's funny how Jewish refugees from 2000 years can return and become citizens of Israel the moment they declare their intention to return while Palestinian refugees from 50 years cannot. How disgusting.

The occupation is illegal. Check UN resolutions and international law. Citizens from the territories were not blowing up Israeli civilians until 28 years after the occupation. Can you blame them back then? They will be respectable when they are treated with respect.

The Palestinians will never surrender their fundamental human rights. Face it.

I never posted any links from Arabic sources or Al Jazeera.

Israel was never 'more than willing' to give back the territories. You should read into the details of the negotiations. Check this Israeli source: http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Palestinians also fear Israelis are trying to get rid of them, discreetly and circumspectly. Like someone is pushing them out. Check out the effects of the settlements, deportations and collective punishment. All forms of terrorism.

Again, you seem to be unable or unwilling to distinguish between justifying and understanding. It doesn't require too much intellect. Terrorist (or Savage as it was called back then) activity by the native americans against the european colonizers was understandable.

Fatalities in the al-Aqsa Intifada,: 29 Sept. 2000 - 18 December 2003

In the Occupied Territories

2,289 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, of whom 439 were minors under the age of 18.

Within Israel

48 Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire. One of those killed was a minor aged 14.

source: http://www.btselem.org/
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Music Video

http://www.btselem.org/
check out the music video made by the organization, "Eyes Wide Open".

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Well I know! They could just build a big wall and physically seperate the two sides, now wouldn't that be swell?!

Yes, especially if that fence wouldn't protrude much into Palestinian territory like it does now.

i say we just eradicate both the iraelis and the palestinains.

problem solved.

Re: Over 2000 Palestinians killed

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Israel was never 'more than willing' to give back the territories. You should read into the details of the negotiations. Check this Israeli source: http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

"
To this day, Arafat has never honestly admitted what was offered to the Palestinians a deal that would have resulted in a Palestinian state, with territory in over 97 percent of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem; with Arab East Jerusalem as the capital of that state (including the holy place of the Haram al-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary); with an international presence in place of the Israeli Defense Force in the Jordan Valley; and with the unlimited right of return for Palestinian refugees to their state but not to Israel. Nonetheless, Arafat continues to hide behind the canard that he was offered "
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=179

this quote by dennis ross, the lead american negotiator at the time, is way more factual then some nifty internat flash webpage. palestinain, i am sorry you were not fully aware of exaclty what was offered to the palestinian people and rejected by arafat. i belive that the proposed solution by barak at that time was the most fair offer ever given and i would still back it to this day.

Barak's Offer

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy " To this day, Arafat has never honestly admitted what was offered to the Palestinians a deal that would have resulted in a Palestinian state, with territory in over 97 percent of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem; with Arab East Jerusalem as the capital of that state (including the holy place of the Haram al-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary); with an international presence in place of the Israeli Defense Force in the Jordan Valley; and with the unlimited right of return for Palestinian refugees to their state but not to Israel. Nonetheless, Arafat continues to hide behind the canard that he was offered " http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=179 this quote by dennis ross, the lead american negotiator at the time, is way more factual then some nifty internat flash webpage. palestinain, i am sorry you were not fully aware of exaclty what was offered to the palestinian people and rejected by arafat. i belive that the proposed solution by barak at that time was the most fair offer ever given and i would still back it to this day.

The quote by Dennis Ross tells part of the story. Israel was offered Arafat a state on 97 percent of the territories. But you have to ask yourself "what kind of state?".

What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:
no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.
In addition, the Barak plan would have :

included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a "Greater Israel", rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.

See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality on this site: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article518.shtml

John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that "it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty."
[Source: "The Impossible Partition," New York Times, January 11, 2001]

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.