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-- So, evolution or creationism - the poll
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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 What's wrong with trying to fathom? And furthermore, if God literally said these words, why does he continue to say them through man, and then man has to write them down? Couldn't God have done a better job giving his message with like, say, and earth-orbiting indestructible tablet of rules? Wouldn't that have been more appropriate from an all-knowing, all-powerful, glorious, majestic, great God? Why does an all-knowing, all-powerful, glorious, majestic, great God need to continue talking through a messenger (man writing stuff down in a book)? Honestly, that really doesn't sound too much like an all-knowing, all-powerful, glorious, majestic, great God to me. I mean, Zeus did a much better job than that, didn't he?

Because that would prove God's existance and undermine faith. He has been through this before. Horrible arguement, but I know he would say it.

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Originally posted by StealthAssassin I did not vote cause my belief is not stated in the options so I will describe it. I believe that the only thing that exist is me. It may sound self centered but you prove to me that you exist. So in my belief is that everything around me and everyone could or could not exist, I don't know, I only thing I can prove is that I myself exist, That does not mean that my body itself exist persay my conscious mind. So ask yourself how can I be certain so-so exist? I will leave with that question for you to ponder. I'm open to be flamed or questioned, just remember to ask yourself that question before you decide to post, it might answer any problems or questions you may have.

Well, while you can't be 100% certain that there is anything other existing in the universe aside from you, you must admit it's very unlikely. You'd basically have to be an all-powerful entity which for sume reason decided to delude itself into believing it's an insignificant animal, yet still has the ability to make a complex simulation of the universe around us.

Now, about Adam and Eve, the bible is full of marital relations between close relatives, brothers and sisters, etc. I guess god thought it was ok to do that sort of things back in the days.

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Originally posted by occrider Hrrmmmmmmm. So now that the new testament says that killing is wrong, and that jesus died on the cross so we wouldn't have to die for our sins, we can start ignoring parts of the old testament that no longer "apply"? That sounds vaguely familiar for some reason. But, If that's the case, why does the new testament not specifically say that the old testament is now invalid? As a matter of fact, Jesus specifically "said" otherwise, "Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them, but to complete them." (Matthew 5:17) "if you do wrong, then you may well be afraid; because it is not for nothing that the symbol of authority is the sword: it is there to serve God, too, as his avenger, to bring retribution to wrongdoers." (Romans 13:4) Luke 19:27, �Christ pronounced this judgement on those who rebelled against their king: �But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence�(NASB). 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. (Matthew 15:1-9). Sounds to me like the death penalty is alive and well. /Why the hell am I even quoting the bible? Man I feel like an idiot using it as a source.

This never got a response.

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Originally posted by priveye03 This never got a response.

Many refutations here never received responses.

Strange that...

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Because that would prove God's existance and undermine faith. He has been through this before. Horrible arguement, but I know he would say it.

Indeed this is true - it would undermine the concept of faith - believing that which is untested or unobserved. I certainly concede that, and furthermore I have no problem with this concept for anyone of any religious background.

You bring this idea of faith (untested, unobserved) into the world of science (tested, observed) and law (logic, supposedly), then I start to get a little testy. This is where the fundies tend to step on toes the most, and this is where I do whatever in my power to stop them dead in their tracks. They can believe anything they want, so long as they keep those beliefs in the confines of their homes and church gatherings. Trickle those beliefs into places where they don't belong and they can and will be confronted with every time.

Hey hey - I've got 11 followers now!!! My church is growing.....

Well, as I posted in the other thread ...

http://users.sedona.net/~becky/cricket1.wav

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Now, about Adam and Eve, the bible is full of marital relations between close relatives, brothers and sisters, etc. I guess god thought it was ok to do that sort of things back in the days.

See, I actually LIKE these parts of the bible ...

Genesis 19:32-36 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.


Drinking! Getting someone drunk to take advantage of them! Pre-Marital Sex! Incest! Bastard children! Incest x 2! I LOVE IT!

If Mel Gibson makes a film about that he's got my $8

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, while you can't be 100% certain that there is anything other existing in the universe aside from you, you must admit it's very unlikely. You'd basically have to be an all-powerful entity which for sume reason decided to delude itself into believing it's an insignificant animal, yet still has the ability to make a complex simulation of the universe around us.

Think about that statement, didn't God if he exist do the same exact thing. He was just some all powerful entity that got bored and simulated a world, in other believes he just created life for others to run around in his world, isn't it the exact same thing I believe except in my situation I created everything just cause I was bored. But in your case I don't exist as I was created by your mind...sounds odd but if you ask that question there is really no way you can disprove it IMO.

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Originally posted by occrider See, I actually LIKE these parts of the bible ... Genesis 19:32-36 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Drinking! Getting someone drunk to take advantage of them! Pre-Marital Sex! Incest! Bastard children! Incest x 2! I LOVE IT! If Mel Gibson makes a film about that he's got my $8

And so how do you think we came to be? There weren't other people around.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 And so how do you think we came to be? There weren't other people around.

E-VO-LU-TION
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 And so how do you think we came to be? There weren't other people around.

I respect your point of view but doesn't inbreeding cause birth defects? Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that was a well documented fact.

So I see everyone from the creationist camp is avoiding my burrito question, and my art question.

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Originally posted by jesten I respect your point of view but doesn't inbreeding cause birth defects? Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that was a well documented fact.

Yes,I've heard of that happening. But,Not much choice there. We wouldn't be here if that didn't take place.

By the way,astroboy. I did answer your question.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 By the way,astroboy. I did answer your question.

Your answer:

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Do not put the Lord your God to the test. That would be the answer to your question.

My counter:
Putting God to the test would be asking him/her/it to do something to prove his/her/its power. I do not do that. I am asking you what your conception of God, and omnipotence is. I will not ask you to get God tomake the burrito and send it to me as proof. I just want you to tell me, since you have the answers, - how your definition of omnipotence and God deals with this paradox. If your faith is based on something, true spiritual searching and contemplation, rather than "my parents raised me as a Christian, therefore I am a Christian" then you will face the question and attempt to answer.
If I asked you whether God can redeem souls, you would answer. If I asked you whether God could create life, you would answer. If I asked you ehther God can be three and one at the same time, you would answer... No one would qualify any of those questions as a test of God's power - merely a question of what your definition of God encompasses. Now I ask you a similar question: whether God can make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it...
I believe in a God of sorts, and in my conception of God I have an answer to this question... I want to know yours. I am not putting God to the test, I am not questioning his might or his power. I am questioning the foundation to your beliefs and an apparent implicit contradiction... since you welcomed all questions, please be so kind as to answer mine directly.

Hence, The question remains unanswered.

"Don't put the LORD god to the test" is just another way of saying "I don't know", or "Stop making me look stupid, evidence means nothing!".

The major difference between an Xian and an atheist here is the fact that "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer for an atheist to give when confronted with something they can't yet explain (i.e. - the origin of the universe). A theist, on the other hand, can't give that answer. Whenever something in the bible is proved wrong, all a theist can do is say 'Don't put the LORD g-d to the test", or "No, that's not true because the bible says it isn't true!".

I'm yet to come across a fundamentalist who doesn't use evidence selectively, picking and choosing stuff that supports their world view, while rejecting stuff that contradicts it, regardless of it's merit.

And astroboy, why was your signat0r too bignat0r?

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If God is omnipotent, could he make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it?

lol

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Yes,I've heard of that happening. But,Not much choice there. We wouldn't be here if that didn't take place.

In that case we'd all be identical twins. Oh, no, wait, when Cain was banished from the garden of eden, he went out into the world and found himself a wife, how could I forget? Wow, wonder where she came from.

But come on, we've been all over the creationism vs. evolution deal, and you haven't shown one significant argument against evolution. First you've admitted that "micro" evolution exists, but denied the existance of speciation. Then you were confronted with evidence that speciation does exists, which caused you to retreat and to say that only species from a same family can speciate, but that god created families. You still haven't been able to explain the huge fossile record evidence, but you have only attempted to refute those arguments by posting articles which claim that some fossiles which have since then been found don't really exist.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 But come on, we've been all over the creationism vs. evolution deal, and you haven't shown one significant argument against evolution. First you've admitted that "micro" evolution exists, but denied the existance of speciation. Then you were confronted with evidence that speciation does exists, which caused you to retreat and to say that only species from a same family can speciate, but that god created families. You still haven't been able to explain the huge fossile record evidence, but you have only attempted to refute those arguments by posting articles which claim that some fossiles which have since then been found don't really exist.

PWN3D

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MrOpus Hey hey - I've got 11 followers now!!! My church is growing.....

isn't it time you started taxing 10% of our incomes?

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Originally posted by tathi isn't it time you started taxing 10% of our incomes?

hehe, i want my own religion too

It isn't tax.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 You still haven't been able to explain the huge fossile record evidence, but you have only attempted to refute those arguments by posting articles which claim that some fossiles which have since then been found don't really exist.

Ofcourse fossils exist, God put them in the ground to test our faith!!

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Originally posted by arctic And astroboy, why was your signat0r too bignat0r?

Dunno, went below the line... I'll fix it one of these days.

I actually don't believe in any choices. I don't believe in big-bang, which would be the only relevant choice to discuss here.
I believe in theory of constant cycle:

"The theory proposes that, in each cycle, the universe refills with hot, dense matter and radiation, which begins a period of expansion and cooling like the one of the standard big bang picture. After 14 billion years, the expansion of the universe accelerates, as astronomers have recently observed. After trillions of years, the matter and radiation are almost completely dissipated and the expansion stalls. An energy field that pervades the universe then creates new matter and radiation, which restarts the cycle."

That is most credible theory in my opinion.

But how does the cycle begin? Sure, one action causes another, then causes another, then another. But, what action caused the one action to happen? And what caused that action to cause the one action happen. And what caused that action to cause the other action to cause the one action to happen? There has to be a beginning. Without a beginning, nothing would happen. Like with God. God created man in His own likeness. But who created the likeness of God in the first place? Whatever the beginning is, people shouldn't be worrying about it so much. Whatever has happened, has happened. Leave it at that. I'm much more interested in the ending than the beginning anyway.

There was no beginning. For some reason human mind seems to be confined to certain bounds, i.e. there must be the beginning and the end.

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/02/...licuniverse.htm

Article explains the theory.

Good article, but it seems that these scientists' brains are running around in circles along with their universe. They haven't really answered anything. We could be in an endless cycle right now, but the cycle did have to start somewhere. Thats basic human logic. Saying that there is no beginning and that the universe always existed seems just as confining as saying "Adam and Eve were born and life continued from there." For the universe to exist, there has to be a point where it didn't exist. You can't count to one without starting with zero. And Constant Cycle does not address that zero factor.

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