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Originally posted by DJ_Laszlo Are there by the way any pics of the interior?[/COLOR]

Not yet, soon i hope.

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Originally posted by m0sh The new M5 looks fucking great! Damn I'd love to get one The old M1 looking sweet aswell As for Chrysler ME Four-Twelve which has such a stupid name (If I remeber right its Multi Engine 4Turbo 12Cylinders) , in the newspaper it looked too techy and less stylish but here it looks abit better

Close, but its Mid engined. the engine sits behind the driver and passanger for a better balance.

If anyone can tell me why the V12 is the "perfect engine" I'll give ya a cookie.

actually mid-engine means it sits between the cabin and rear wheels imho. virtually all highest-performance cars are mid-engine designs - Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrera GT, Lombarghini all of them.

Mercedes SLR and Ferrari Maranello are exceptions though, they're front engine designes but they are also not pure performance cars but performance/luxury.

I do not believe V12 is a perfect engine, i believe V8 is the perfect setup. It has to do with cancelling out of vibrations from different cylinders, as far as i know V8 has the most symmetry for accomplishing that, i may be wrong though. This vibration has pretty much no effect on performance though, just smoothness of operation.

quote:

Originally posted by vasyachkin Mercedes SLR and Ferrari Maranello are exceptions though, they're front engine designes but they are also not pure performance cars but performance/luxury.

you have to be kidding about the SLR right? Its only their biggest production supercar yet. Their collaboration with McLaren to make it a credible challenger against the Carrera GT and Enzo is nothing to do with pure performance right

Any other takers at why the V12 is better then others?

And if u read what i said, passanger and driver sit in the cabin, and engine is behind them therefor, behind the cabin

Mercedes McLaren SLR The engine sits behind the front axle. Giving it better weight distribution and balance.


Hint on the V12, how often does it have a cylinder firing.

DJ Mdma, a quote for you ( from http://www.autonetdirect.com/all_exotics/04mbz_slr.html )

"This super-exotic isn't only a speed demon. It is a luxury Gran Turismo that is sure to satisfy the most modest enthusiast."

so like i said, cars like maranello, aston martin etc are grand tourers, they are performance/luxury. on other hand cars like Modena are 100% performance. if you ever heard Modena rev it sounds like a motorcycle, not a car

most production supercars these days incorporate a certain amount of luxury into them. at the price you're paying for them, you'd expect some!

We all know that cars like the Aston Vanquish, forthcoming Ferrari 612, Mercedes SL500 or 55AMG and such are regarded as GT class cars, since they are designed with the comfort and class as a priority, with the power to match, whereas with the supercars it is the otherway round, with the performance being the first priority, but the comfort and luxury will still be at a very good level.

Thats not to say that the Vanquish and 612 etc are slow! but their sportier siblings in their marque or rival marques will outperform them.

so on that note wouldn't class the SLR as a GT class car, as it is on a higher level than any of those other cars.

I would also not class the 360 Modena as a 100% performance car either, there was a very good reason why that is, and i read that somewhere in Autocar Magazine. Its something to do with the fact that it can't compare to its brother the 360 Stradale. I'll ask the motoring journo's the next time i see them (Autocar is published in my town)

quote:

Originally posted by dj_mdma I would also not class the 360 Modena as a 100% performance car either

360 Modena Challenge

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...0304_frst2_ferr

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Originally posted by vasyachkin actually mid-engine means it sits between the cabin and rear wheels imho. virtually all highest-performance cars are mid-engine designs - Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrera GT, Lombarghini all of them. Mercedes SLR and Ferrari Maranello are exceptions though, they're front engine designes but they are also not pure performance cars but performance/luxury. I do not believe V12 is a perfect engine, i believe V8 is the perfect setup. It has to do with cancelling out of vibrations from different cylinders, as far as i know V8 has the most symmetry for accomplishing that, i may be wrong though. This vibration has pretty much no effect on performance though, just smoothness of operation.

actually the honda s2000 is considered a mid-engine car as well, and the engine sits in front of the cabin. i believe mid-engine is defined as in between the front and rear axles.

and i feel a v12 is smoother than a v8. v8s sound better though. all a personal thing.

-keith

In the V12, there is less delay between teh cylinders firing, every 30 degrees in crankshaft rotation, a cylinder is firing. as opposed to every 45 in an 8 or every 90 in a 4.

anyone remember that car and driver a while back, with the comparo between the 760il and the s600? They talk about how 12 can be considered one of the those perfect numbers (along w/1.618, etc), in nature, society, and apparentely cars too. v12s are the absolute smoothest running engines around.

Hopefully BMW will be able to pull this one off, instead of the 850 flop. As much as i prefer Mercedes over BMW, i have to hand it to them for the M series. aaaand the Z8.

am i the only one to notice how similar the taillights on that bmw are to subaru wrx taillights? same shape

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Originally posted by getfoul Hopefully BMW will be able to pull this one off, instead of the 850 flop. As much as i prefer Mercedes over BMW, i have to hand it to them for the M series. aaaand the Z8.

the m5 WILL be successful... the 850 doesn't really compare... it was an "un-tested/un-tried" series. the m5 is just a motorsport version of the 5... 5-series generally sell well... and this m5 will be a beast so i am not worrying about it.

-keith

DRIVE BY WIRE!!!


i love how everyone is discussing the styling or straightline speed. thats just consequence! drive by wire, the rigidity of the chassis, etc - those are the real innovations here|

Fiberoptics

quote:

Originally posted by getfoul In the V12, there is less delay between teh cylinders firing, every 30 degrees in crankshaft rotation, a cylinder is firing. as opposed to every 45 in an 8 or every 90 in a 4.

actually it would go like this:

one cylinder - every 720 degrees.
two cylinders - every 360 degrees.
four cylinders - every 180 degrees, etc ...

four stroke engine means one combustion per 4 strokes, and you have two strokes ( up and down ) for one 360 degree revolution of crank, so one cylinder fires only every 720 not 360 degrees. for a 2-stroke it would indeed be 360 degrees but those are pretty much obsolete.

but your point that V12 will be firing more frequently is valid, i just dont know if that is of much importance.

bah, i neglected the fact that it was a 4 stroke... so basically take what i said and make it bigger lol.

His point is only of importance if you compare the V12 to an Inline-6.
The Inline-6 is already really smooth. It has to do with the design of the crankshaft:


Front view:


Somehow the all the vibrations are canceled out. I'm to lazy to translate it all from German, you'll find a detailed explanation somewhere on the net.

A V12 is nothing but 2 Inline-6 put together.

so what is the advantage of VW's W8 ?

http://www.modernracer.com/volkswagenpassatw8.html

http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/13/0513feat_2.html

It is small and fits into the VW engine-bays.
Space is limited due to the FWD.

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Originally posted by Frode It is small and fits into the VW engine-bays. Space is limited due to the FWD.

That's what it says in that Forbes article, but I figured there was more to it than just that. Thank you, anyhow.

quote:

The idea behind both drive systems was to find a way to create a very flat engine that would fit more displacement into less space. In the case of the W8 engine, the W is formed via two V-4s set side by side, with each V-4's cylinders set apart at a super steep 15 degrees, and the opposition of the two banks of V-4s set at a very flat 72 degrees. If this sounds very complex, most V-8s are set at a taller 45 degrees, and all the cylinders go in a row, two banks of four cylinders, so the engine bay has to be both deeper, to accommodate the taller engine, and longer, to fit the cylinders in a longer line.

I clicked on the link but I got a 404 error. Oh well.

I guess there is no other advantage.

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