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-- For FuzzyGreen and others prefering the "freedom" of the US
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Originally posted by occrider Well I'm not completely sure of your argument, bud doesn't it make sense that electors of the electoral college are not completely "free" to act as they choose since they are BOUND by the public majroity vote to vote as the majority intended?

Well thats the thing half are half arn't.

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Originally posted by Dervish Well thats the thing half are half arn't.

I'm still confused What's your argument in its entirety?

(This isn't America bashing btw just an exploration of the system and a discussion) This part of my problem with the system is that 24 states electors are *bound* and the rest arn't. Why should your vote be treated differntly in this case? I understand differnt states have diffent laws and so on but in this matter since it's being applied to the election of the president why arn't they all the same?

Edit: I also know that 99% of the time they do vote the way they are ment to. It's just the princible of it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: For FuzzyGreen and others prefering the "freedom" of the US

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 But, if you want "sources" The declaration of independence,the constitution.... That's what makes America more free

Documents which were written hundreds of years ago allow you to conclude, not only that America is free, but even that America is more free than Europe??? It was some really clever guys who wrote those papers I must say: They must have predicted perfectly well how the European countries would be governed in the year 2004. Quite a feat!

Frankly I'm a bit surprised why you post in the political forum. Your arguments vary in quality from bad to totally ridiculous - and people point that out to you again and again. And it is not because you simply just like to argue (whatever your abilities in that area may be) - because when you are presented with counterarguments you simply ignore them and stay out of the thread. So what is your motivation?

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I've taken college courses in US History, world history, and Poly-sci. I'm not an english major and never will be, but I do know quite a lot about the American system of government and that it's not as shitty as everyone makes it out to be.

That may be. But what do you know about European countries? You are saying that the US system of governance is *better* than European ones - a conclusion that can only be drawn by somebody who has deep insight into both systems.

And, please, do not argue by the "I've taken courses/degrees"-route. I'm studying for a phd and has taken courses in, amongst other things, technology and society. As my degree is on a higher level than that of yours, would that allow me to say that the US have a worse healthcare system than we have in Europe?
No, I would have to come up with arguments. And so do you. Simply telling St. Andrew to "study in the US for a year" is really lousy argumentation technique.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 It doesn't take much to know that America is more free than Europe. But, if you want "sources" The declaration of independence,the constitution.... That's what makes America more free

What the? (part two!)

I'm sorry to break it to you, but there are numerous things going on today in the US that are in direct violation of the constitution, specifically the establishment clause and the first amendment (I believe the two are different - correct me if I'm wrong).

Your entire argument relies on the assumption that because the constitution says something, it actually happens. Sadly, that isn't the case. You need to look at freedom in practice rather than in theory.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For FuzzyGreen and others prefering the "freedom" of the US

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Originally posted by arctic You need to look at freedom in practice rather than in theory.

Exactly. I know I said it before but it's a good example. The way black people were treated earlier on. Everybody still sang "the land of the free" when black people wern't treated as equals.

I won't claim to know all the intracracys of the constituion but another example is the current gun laws. The little quote the NRA come out with is actually refering to what the "local millita" are allowed to do not Joe Public. So in effect the current gun laws are in conflict with the constitution.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen If you had any actual knowledge about the American form of government you would see that the US constitution and Bill of rights covers this perfectly.

Perfectly, eh? That's why you have KKK guys and neo-nazi organizations roaming around freely, yet you raise such a fuss and decide to censor superbowl transmisions when Janet Jackson shows her tit?

And just FYI I've been living in the states for a few years, so I do have enough knowledge about the american form of government.

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No, plain and simple America has the best doctors, the best medicine, and the best technology. Why? Because it's form of goverment creates the opurtunity for the most powerfull companies, technologies, and industries that can ever be created. I am fine with my low taxes(compared to european taxes) and top of the line health care for my family, thank you.

Actually it's because of the 1st and especially 2nd world war. Prior to those wars the US was a not very powerful agricultural country. Only after those wars ruined most of european economy and industry did the US manage to become on par with european nations industry-wise and it became a superpower on the bases of providing handful loans to the allies which they had to pay back later on.

And to Nellie:
I don't know if you didn't realize this, but most european countries do have their own constitutions as well. Keep in mind that when people are talking about Europe being freer than the US, they are talking about western Europe (France, Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany), and not about eastern europe countries like Moldavia or Serbia. We're all well aware that many european countries do not have nearly the same amount of civil liberties as the US, but the countries which make up the EU are in many cases better organized.

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Originally posted by Dervish Firstly wheres your evidence?

http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba...AIDS_stern.html
http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba..._AIDS_gays.html
http://www.aegis.com/news/mh/1991/MH911107.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3154803.stm
http://www.unitycoalition.org/AidsinCuba.doc
http://www.aguabuena.org/ingles/art.../cubafisrt.html
http://www.iaen.org/limelette/html/lim05.htm

I can go on and on for days.... Yes Aids patients get free treatment (assuming there are drugs available) but they are basically forced into AIDS sanatariums.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it's not exactly what I would call humane.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Actually it's because of the 1st and especially 2nd world war. Prior to those wars the US was a not very powerful agricultural country. Only after those wars ruined most of european economy and industry did the US manage to become on par with european nations industry-wise and it became a superpower on the bases of providing handful loans to the allies which they had to pay back later on.

Actually the US was an industrial superpower prior to post-WW2 Europe . Perhaps it became one of only two superpowers following the conflict.

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Originally posted by Dervish (This isn't America bashing btw just an exploration of the system and a discussion) This part of my problem with the system is that 24 states electors are *bound* and the rest arn't. Why should your vote be treated differntly in this case? I understand differnt states have diffent laws and so on but in this matter since it's being applied to the election of the president why arn't they all the same? Edit: I also know that 99% of the time they do vote the way they are ment to. It's just the princible of it.

I don't think it's 99% of the time. I cannot think of a single time where an electro hasn't voted the way they are supposed to.

It is a great system for a federal republic because it prevents the most populous states from having a monopoly over the choice of president. It was especially imporant in the early days where communication was slow and elections couldn't be as closely monitored as today. In the US system today, since we view ourselves as Americans as opposed to New Yorkers or Virginians it's a bit outdated.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Perfectly, eh? That's why you have KKK guys and neo-nazi organizations roaming around freely, yet you raise such a fuss and decide to censor superbowl transmisions when Janet Jackson shows her tit?

Here's the deal. In the US we place restrictions on time and place of speech. Thus, Janet Jackson can show her titties all she wants, but not on live national broadcast television (because of the theory of captive audiences). If she wants to go on cable she can basically do whatever she wants. In Europe, time and place are not usually restricted but the conent of the message is. So if titties are allowed to be shown, they can be shown everywhere, but pro-nazi literature cannot be distributed anywhere.

Although the US system is plagued by christian concervatives and the retarded left trying to regulate what can be said, overall the US system is far more free (the market-place of ideas rationale).

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And to Nellie: I don't know if you didn't realize this, but most european countries do have their own constitutions as well. Keep in mind that when people are talking about Europe being freer than the US, they are talking about western Europe (France, Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany), and not about eastern europe countries like Moldavia or Serbia. We're all well aware that many european countries do not have nearly the same amount of civil liberties as the US, but the countries which make up the EU are in many cases better organized.

In some areas specific European nations are more free, in most areas they are not, and as a collective "Europe" is far less free than the US, but they're too caught up in admiring themselves in the mirror to realize the truth.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Perfectly, eh? That's why you have KKK guys and neo-nazi organizations roaming around freely, yet you raise such a fuss and decide to censor superbowl transmisions when Janet Jackson shows her tit?

That's just it, they are allowed to roam around freely as long as they aren't hurting anyone. As for Janet's tit, well, I'm personally am against broad censorship, but the FCC only censors what can be shown on PUBLIC airwaves, you can show whatever the hell you want on private airwaves.

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And just FYI I've been living in the states for a few years, so I do have enough knowledge about the american form of government.

That doesn't really mean anything. I know many people that have lived here few years and don't know shit about the American system of government. In America, one has a choice what he wants to make of himself and what education and social status they want to obtain.

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Actually it's because of the 1st and especially 2nd world war. Prior to those wars the US was a not very powerful agricultural country. Only after those wars ruined most of european economy and industry did the US manage to become on par with european nations industry-wise and it became a superpower on the bases of providing handful loans to the allies which they had to pay back later on.

Wow, you really think that? The US was a superpower long before WW1 and it's because of the industrial revolution that brought the United States to become the superpower it has become. The industrial revolution only happened because America was the first country with a free society that allowed for the advancement of personal human acheivements. Have you ever even studied the industrial revolution? I can tell you that it didn't start in Europe, that's for sure.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen No, plain and simple America has the best doctors, the best medicine, and the best technology. Why? Because it's form of goverment creates the opurtunity for the most powerfull companies, technologies, and industries that can ever be created. I am fine with my low taxes(compared to european taxes) and top of the line health care for my family, thank you.

You're so full of it. You don't even based that of my quote. Bunch of rhetoric. I have seen your best doctors, who can't even find the right prescription for the sore throat, that I have almost for the second week. Powerful companies and doctors that care only about pumping money out of you. That is one of the reasons why they set dozens of appointments before even coming to diagnosis.

Again, who the hell are you to say that socialized medicine is lack of freedom. Lemme ask you a question. Have you ever lived in a country with socialized medicine? If you answer is no, then shut up before you embarass yourself more with your empty rhetoric.

I lived under two types of medical system, and I tell you that US medical system suck completely. I have the first hand experience, instead of just speculating like you do.

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Originally posted by Dervish (This isn't America bashing btw just an exploration of the system and a discussion) This part of my problem with the system is that 24 states electors are *bound* and the rest arn't. Why should your vote be treated differntly in this case? I understand differnt states have diffent laws and so on but in this matter since it's being applied to the election of the president why arn't they all the same? Edit: I also know that 99% of the time they do vote the way they are ment to. It's just the princible of it.

Again, the concept behind this is to limit the power to change the government overnight. The founding fathers didn't want a fly-by-night government that would change overnight whenever the popular opinion changed. There are many times when the popular opinion isn't the correct opinion. Think about the resoning behind this, it's really the only solution to this problem and shows that the founding fathers knew their shit.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For FuzzyGreen and others prefering the "freedom" of the US

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Originally posted by Dervish Exactly. I know I said it before but it's a good example. The way black people were treated earlier on. Everybody still sang "the land of the free" when black people wern't treated as equals.

Well, no government is perfect or ever will be. The fact is, is that they are now treated as equals.

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I won't claim to know all the intracracys of the constituion but another example is the current gun laws. The little quote the NRA come out with is actually refering to what the "local millita" are allowed to do not Joe Public. So in effect the current gun laws are in conflict with the constitution.

I have no clue what you are talking about, but no "local millita" is allowed anything more then a normal "joe public". The right to bear arms and protect yourself is a freedom granted by the constitution.

its unsurprising that Fuzzy keeps speaking of democracy, yet his nation's power was garnered through the systemic use of slavery.

And even after it was abolished, undemocratic laws continued to haunt the black peoples of America.

Your freedom and power came at the expense of enslaving a race.

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Originally posted by 3xx3r7 You're so full of it. You don't even based that of my quote. Bunch of rhetoric. I have seen your best doctors, who can't even find the right prescription for the sore throat, that I have almost for the second week. Powerful companies and doctors that care only about pumping money out of you. That is one of the reasons why they set dozens of appointments before even coming to diagnosis. Again, who the hell are you to say that socialized medicine is lack of freedom. Lemme ask you a question. Have you ever lived in a country with socialized medicine? If you answer is no, then shut up before you embarass yourself more with your empty rhetoric. I lived under two types of medical system, and I tell you that US medical system suck completely. I have the first hand experience, instead of just speculating like you do.

I guess you aren't seeing the same doctors that I am because I've never had a problem and if I did, I would just go to a different doctor, because here I have the freedom of choice.

As for the soar throat, well most likely it's a viroule(sp?) infection and there is no cure for that other then to let your body fight through it. So I don't doubt that the doctors didn't give you any medicine because there isn't any medicine that can help you with a viri infection.

No, I haven't ever lived with socialized medicine, though I have had Kaiser HMO which is pretty close to it and their quality of healthcare sucks. Again, I have the choice of choosing a different healthcare because I have freedom of choice.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King its unsurprising that Fuzzy keeps speaking of democracy, yet his nation's power was garnered through the systemic use of slavery. And even after it was abolished, undemocratic laws continued to haunt the black peoples of America. Your freedom and power came at the expense of enslaving a race.

Ok, that's correct, but the fact is, is that the consititution was ammended to give every race equal rights and we overcame the problem (I personally think we even overcorrected with AffrmativeAction).

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I guess you aren't seeing the same doctors that I am because I've never had a problem and if I did, I would just go to a different doctor, because here I have the freedom of choice. As for the soar throat, well most likely it's a viroule(sp?) infection and there is no cure for that other then to let your body fight through it. So I don't doubt that the doctors didn't give you any medicine because there isn't any medicine that can help you with a viri infection. No, I haven't ever lived with socialized medicine, though I have had Kaiser HMO which is pretty close to it and their quality of healthcare sucks. Again, I have the choice of choosing a different healthcare because I have freedom of choice.

I had probably about 8 doctors, since my father's insurance keeps changing. Also, you can't compare HMO to what I am talking about. I did not have these kinds of problems with doctors under socialized medicine.

I always order pharmaceuticals made Ukraine/Russia, since they work quicker and far more effectively than the products of these powerful and caring (for money that is) companies.

And freedom of choice? That is a freedom of choice of the same thing. Every single appointment to any US doctor was as I described above. One time I had to wait for like 5 hours before I was actually admitted with toenail infection. And their manager or whoever it was gave me a crap later when I said "Finally!" while entering the door to the side of the reception. She actually threatened to kick me out, in the view of my bloated and bloody toenail on my foot. That was another time when I changed my doctor. And no, I am not lying, I can show you the pic of my trimmed toenail, lol. They took co-pay of fifty bux (and I have pretty good insurance) for looking at my toenail and directing me to the "foot" hospital, if you will. They did not even do anything to alleviate the incredible pain I had. In Ukraine, I would just come in and get instant diagnosis, something to relieve pain and direction to the right doctor in the timely manner for free.

Also, you have answered my question, therefore you can't tell how is it like to live under socialized medicine.

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Originally posted by 3xx3r7 And freedom of choice? That is a freedom of choice of the same thing. Every single appointment to any US doctor was as I described above. One time I had to wait for like 5 hours before I was actually admitted with toenail infection. And their manager or whoever it was gave me a crap later when I said "Finally!" while entering the door to the side of the reception. She actually threatened to kick me out, in the view of my bloated and bloody toenail on my foot. That was another time when I changed my doctor. And no, I am not lying, I can show you the pic of my trimmed toenail, lol. They took co-pay of fifty bux (and I have pretty good insurance) for looking at my toenail and directing me to the "foot" hospital, if you will. They did not even do anything to alleviate the incredible pain I had. In Ukraine, I would just come in and get instant diagnosis, something to relieve pain and direction to the right doctor in the timely manner for free. Also, you have answered my question, therefore you can't tell how is it like to live under socialized medicine.

Sounds like you've just had bad experiences and also miss your old country, why are you living in the United States again?

I have studied about how socialized medicine works, which is quite similar to an American HMO (Kaiser in my case) and I can tell you that PPO blows away HMO healthcare by a long shot. Oh and another thing, if you go to a emergency room with an infected toenail you will have to wait for the more urgent problems to go first.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For FuzzyGreen and others prefering the "freedom" of the

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Well, no government is perfect or ever will be. The fact is, is that they are now treated as equals.

yeah but for example the homosexuals aren't....

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Sounds like you've just had bad experiences and also miss your old country, why are you living in the United States again?

I am not the only one who experienced these problems from the people that I know. No, I don't miss my country. It is plagued with other problems.

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I have studied about how socialized medicine works, which is quite similar to an American HMO (Kaiser in my case) and I can tell you that PPO blows away HMO healthcare by a long shot.

Dude, ok I am going to say this again. HMO is nothing like socialized medicine. I have the first hand experience. I get served in timely manner with the same quality for free and without waiting for four hours. Try experiencing, instead of studying about it.

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Oh and another thing, if you go to a emergency room with an infected toenail you will have to wait for the more urgent problems to go first.

Then it is not the best system in the world if you have long queues. Not getting my money worth, for the supposed best healthcare in the world. Proves again the fact about the waiting time I experienced with socialized medicine.

P.S. Also, I was in doctors office, not in emergency room. Toenail infection is not an immediate emergency, lol.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen That's just it, they are allowed to roam around freely as long as they aren't hurting anyone. As for Janet's tit, well, I'm personally am against broad censorship, but the FCC only censors what can be shown on PUBLIC airwaves, you can show whatever the hell you want on private airwaves.

Well, KKK is issuing PUBLIC statements, and those statements may well induce a large amount of animosity and hate crimes towards people of other race. The harm from those statements is much greater than that of people seeing Janet's tit (considering that there is any harm at all, which is quite questionable). What you personally believe is totally irrelevant, what is relevant is the position of the government. If I came to you and started threatening you that I will hang you or burn you to death, you'd feel scared, right? You'd feel like you need protection and that the person who's threatening you should be constrained. Well, KKK is doing just that, they are openly threatening people of other races and the government turns a blind eye to it. But it's not just that the organization just spoke out and did nothing. They have themselves organzied and carried out a rather large amount of lynches and public executions. They tortured and killed innocent people and are still allowed to exist. There is a reason why hate speech is not allowed in Europe, because it is provoking violence and social unrest.

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That doesn't really mean anything. I know many people that have lived here few years and don't know shit about the American system of government.

Well, I for one do know enough about the system. Like that great 18th amendment that prohibited alcohol. Now how could that happen in the land of the brave and the free? And then the 21st amendment that amended the first one. Oh, and when did you abolish slavery? In 1865, eh? Several hundred years after most of Europe. And who was the first country to give women the right to vote? Well, it wasn't the US, you did that only in 1920.

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In America, one has a choice what he wants to make of himself and what education and social status they want to obtain.

First of all, that applies only to the rich. A poor black kid from NY ghetto has exactly 0% chance of getting decent education, because decent education in the US costs large sums of money. In Europe, the university system is much cheaper, if not free, and poor people recieve enough wellfare and benefits to be able to get decent education if they want to. On the other hand, your pre-university education is horrible. People, and especially children, have been given too much right in deciding what they want to learn. That's the reason why children have to be taught creationism in some public schools, and that's the reason why there are too many people who are either narrowly educated or completely uneducated about important issues when they finish high school. Those people are practically forced to be taking shit courses at universities because they followed easier line of resistance when they were kids, and that's why so few are taking courses in r&d.

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Wow, you really think that? The US was a superpower long before WW1 and it's because of the industrial revolution that brought the United States to become the superpower it has become. The industrial revolution only happened because America was the first country with a free society that allowed for the advancement of personal human acheivements. Have you ever even studied the industrial revolution? I can tell you that it didn't start in Europe, that's for sure.

Eh, superpower long before WW1??? And you're taking history at Berkeley? I largely doubt that. I agree with Occrider that I made a bit hasty assumption, the US was a rather strong power prior to WW2, but prior to WW1 it was nowhere near UK, except in railroad and automotive industries, both of which were invented in Europe. as a matter of fact, if I remember correctly, industrial revolution was started with the invention of the steam engine. And who invented the steam engine? Why, James Watt, an englishman! Prior to WW1, about 30% of americans were employed in the agricultural sector, in comparison to the british 12%. The amount of people in the US with post elementary education was 1/3 of that in Germany. Most scientific breakthroughs came from europe at the time. Regarding the free society, I can't seem to recall slaves being held in France/Germany/UK in early 1800's.

Also, FuzzyGreen you seem to respond only to the points that are convenient for you. You either don't want to admit strong points or don't have anything to say about them from the way I see it.

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