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-- Minorities want race stats only when it benifits them
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Originally posted by Arcticboy As for DigiNut, I'm confused. Exactly what "special" treatment are minorities receiving in canada? I am not aware of any such things, so educate me. The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada.

A few off the top of my head:
- University admissions quotas
- Immigration policies such as refugee status
- Various employment policies specifically geared to what you yourself said earlier (having a statistical employee breakdown equivalent to Canada's overall population breakdown in terms of race, but nothing else). For example, the CBC policy: "As the country's public broadcaster, we must reflect the diversity of Canadian society in our workforce and on our airwaves."

There are many more, but you can hardly expect me to scour corporate, government, and academic literature solely in order to provide foundation for YOUR argument.

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Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

Every single point here is unsubstantiated.

Why don't you "buy" the European example?

What makes you think it's working "fine" here in Canada, despite numerous scathing criticisms from people who have done actual research? (read Neil Bissoondath's Selling Illusions: The Cult of Multiculturalism in Canada for an excellent example specific to Canada, or Roger Sandall's The Culture Cult for a more scholarly but also more general example).

What makes you think that racial isolation is worse in the U.S.? (Racism, perhaps, is more prevalent, but certainly not the type of racial isolationism you see here in Canada, and "stereotypical" culture is far more prevalent in Canada specifically because of the ethnic conformity I mentioned above).

Indeed I DO think that the "melting pot" is a much better paradigm. I favour integration over assimilation, but I also favour both of those over segregation. Canadian politicians have been drumming the multiculturalism beat for years insisting that multiculturalist policies are integrationist, but a few elementary lessons in history (and economics) should set aside any doubts that they are actually isolationist. The USA's "melting pot" is culturally destructive but at least it doesn't tear away at the national identity and economy and promote unfair and unjust national policies.

It's the classic "theory vs practice" problem that destroyed the communist countries. And it shouldn't be surprising that multiculturalism spawned off of communism, but that's another story altogether - the fact is, multiculturalism is one of those "nice", idealistic policies that sounds great in theory but just doesn't, and CAN'T, work in practice.

As for the race questions on a university application. Isnt it funny that 40 years ago it would have been minority rights groups fighting to have this abolished. 40 years later it's the minority rights groups that want it!

That was the point of why i started the thread in the first place. 40 years ago minorities wanted true equality and today they want dominence. Its just not right.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 That was the point of why i started the thread in the first place. 40 years ago minorities wanted true equality and today they want dominence. Its just not right.

where do you get that argument from? can you back that up? i'd be interested. ...which minorities are you talking about?

dominance....i'm not so sure if that's quite right, or even the right word.

Its not dominance that anyone is looking for, its equality. Moved to Canada about 6 years ago. love this country, got the opportunities that I might not get where I was born. I am a Canadian citizen, I have the same rights as anyone, but when it comes to getting the opportunities like anyone else I do not get the chance. I speak English fluently I mingle in the same crowds but my name or my back ground always hinders the upper management to hire me. Why is that? Because its perception. I work for a big financial organization in TO. You will see a lot of minorities in the lower level jobs (mainly sales) but the higher you go the ratio drops. Why? because its the big boys group. that is why affirmative action should be applied in certain places. Its needed, the qualifications match the person can do the job, but guess what he doesn�t play golf or he did not go this university or doesn�t live in that neighborhood. so lets put his resume aside. None the less, this is a great place to live , I AM CANADIAN, but I and a lot of people like me have to fight harder to get anywhere.

P.S Trance RULES!!!!!!!!

Where do i get that from? Well it happens to be that 40 years ago yesterday was the landmark decision called Brown vs the board of education which legally desegregated schools. A joyous day for minority rights. Now we have minorities who actually WANT forms of segregation because its adventagious to them now.

As for the reason why minorites are shut out of the higher management? 2 theories. One is that climbing that ladder doesnt happen overnight. Most immigrants have arrived in the last 20 years. It takes decades of ladder climbing to get to the top of a company. Look at women for example. There are now countless women CEOs in this country and women members of parliament and we even had a women as prime minister. In BC an indian born person was premier. I dont think minorities have it so bad here. Getting to the top is all about social connections and "who you know" and not nec about qualification. Minorities will eventually get there too as will i (LOL).... just give it some time.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut - Immigration policies such as refugee status

that's not special treatment - it's a RIGHT to protection that each and every human being on this planet is entitled to!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Brown vs the board of education which legally desegregated schools. A joyous day for minority rights. Now we have minorities who actually WANT forms of segregation because its adventagious to them now.

where can i read up on this case?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut A few off the top of my head: - University admissions quotas - Immigration policies such as refugee status - Various employment policies specifically geared to what you yourself said earlier (having a statistical employee breakdown equivalent to Canada's overall population breakdown in terms of race, but nothing else). For example, the CBC policy: "As the country's public broadcaster, we must reflect the diversity of Canadian society in our workforce and on our airwaves." There are many more, but you can hardly expect me to scour corporate, government, and academic literature solely in order to provide foundation for YOUR argument.

Disko-kandi already responded to the refugee comment, that just has nothing to do with affirmative action, so I won't go there.

As for the other examples you give, none of these are enforced by LAW. They are policies taken by the governing bodies of the organisations involved, because apparently they had the same debate we've had in this thread and decided it was a good idea. If there is racial "affirmative action" legislation in Canada, I'd be happy to retract my statement if you provide references. Now, do you suggest we have legislation forbidding any organisations from such policies?

Any legal remedy in this area for minorities comes from the human rights code under which they could challenge being over-looked if they could provide proof that they were qualified for a position and didn't get it based on race. The same remedy is available to any white person feeling that they have been wrong done, so what's the problem?

As for the employment equity issue mentioned by Smitty, any employment equity laws in Canada that I'm aware of have to do with women getting paid equally for equal work. Basic common sense. Employment equity legislation DOES NOT refer to the ratio of women or racial minorities hired, but again I'd be happy to take that back if you give me references to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Why don't you "buy" the European example?

Because you didn't give any clear references when you claimed that "it's been proven over and over" and you didn't really show how a specific example applies to Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you think it's working "fine" here in Canada, despite numerous scathing criticisms from people who have done actual research?

I have not read these books, so I can not comment on them. I'd be interested in seeing what kind of "research" they did.

I did not say that things are perfect in Canada, but that I don't know any example in the world that's better. I have lived in Iran, in Europe, in the U.S., and in Canada, and I have travelled extensively especially in Europe and the U.S. Despite our problems, Canada is the best working example I've seen reflecting the reality of the world, that borders can not last forever now that we have the ability to cross the glove in a few hours in a plane, not to mention the electronic highways that instantly connect all corners of the globe.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you think that racial isolation is worse in the U.S.? (Racism, perhaps, is more prevalent, but certainly not the type of racial isolationism you see here in Canada, and "stereotypical" culture is far more prevalent in Canada specifically because of the ethnic conformity I mentioned above). Indeed I DO think that the "melting pot" is a much better paradigm. I favour integration over assimilation, but I also favour both of those over segregation. Canadian politicians have been drumming the multiculturalism beat for years insisting that multiculturalist policies are integrationist, but a few elementary lessons in history (and economics) should set aside any doubts that they are actually isolationist. The USA's "melting pot" is culturally destructive but at least it doesn't tear away at the national identity and economy and promote unfair and unjust national policies.

How can you simply separat the prevalence of racism in the U.S. from their policies on racial assimilation? You just can't pick and choose what you like about another country, these things are all interconnected. That's why I say Canada is the best overall working example.

As for racial TENSION being worse in the States (I never said isolation), again, I've seen it personally. Hell, I could give many examples, but off the top of my head, do you remember the nasty L.A. riot after the Rodney Kind beating? Enough said.

You talk about losing the national identity. What identity? Canada is a young country and it's culture and national identity formed by people who've immigrated here. First it was the "white" races including the English, Frence, German, Dutch, Ukranian, etc. Then the many other races. Unlike some European countries where they might have a more legitimate concern with losing their "identity" (which is just fear of the unknown and inevitable eventual unification of he world), you can't tell me that such a concern in Canada is truly valid. Again, if anyone has the right to claim a certain identity as the true Canadian one that should be preserved, it's the Natives (aka Aboriginal People).

Plus, you think Americans are preserving their "identity"? They are preserving their ignorance. Yes, many there are "proud to be American" but they don't even know why, because they don't know anything else. That's how the powerful people who run the country and exploit the working people like it. We've all seen recently what the blind "American Pride" can do and has done to the world, so don't even get me started there.

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