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-- Reagan's Viewing
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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Kinda goofy IMO, but whatever floats your boat...

I assume that was directed at me.

I don't think it's that goofy really. Especially not if you consider Czechoslovakia and it's student revolt in Prague with frontman Vaclav Havel, who later became the first demokratic president. After the communist regime did a harsh clamp down on students the whole anti-communist movement got toa boiling point. This was called the Velvet revoultion because it was basically a non-violent revolution and very few, if any, got phsyically hurt.

I honestly don't think Reagan had much to do with that. It was the fault of the communist government and the hard work of thousands of rather brave individuals who dared to stand up against the regime.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish I assume that was directed at me.

No, no, not at all. I meant having a huge convoy of people walk past a coffin seems a bit goofy to me.

I totally agree that internal factors had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than anything Reagan did.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter No, no, not at all. I meant having a huge convoy of people walk past a coffin seems a bit goofy to me. I totally agree that internal factors had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than anything Reagan did.

ah ok

and then I actually agree on your statement, since it's almost an tourist attraction at this point. Might as well raise a maosuleum hehe. That would be ironic :P

quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish Heh, sorry I've only skimmed through the thread and maybe somebody brought this up before. As a counterpoint to the notion that Reagan was the sole reason USSR fell apart (and in extension communism), what about the struggle by the people of the various Sovjet satellite states, such as Poland and Czechoslovakia? Somehow I'm pretty sure they must have been an integral part of the demise of the Sovjet imperium.

Exactly. Reagan did not single-handedly end the Cold War, however he played a big part in bringing it to an end.

The whole week felt like a Republican publicity stunt to out do Kennedy's funeral, the only thing missing was a Bush/Cheney reelection sticker on the casket. Concluding with a funeral with the entire press core snapping pictures of Nancy like the paparazzi do on Oscar night. I was expecting to see a coffin cam for a close up to add to the emotional impact and reporter to get her reaction and ask what she's going to do in the second half. Whole event was rather disgraceful.

She didn't think it was disgraceful and many times thanked everyone for their support. She is the only one that can determine that, not a democrat nazi that thinks everything is a republican conspiracy to get power. She requested the state funeral, she could have refused it like Nixon's family did. The event seemed long because state funerals last 7 days, that is the routine. Did you honestly expect it to not be shown on the major news channels? You act like he died on purpose just to help Bush get re-elected, oh wait maybe Bush had men secretly kill him so that he can get sympathy. What a load of shit.

Geez people can't a man just die in peace, let the nation honor him if they so choose and life goes on. Does everything have to be a political stunt, ploy, or agenda. I dislike George Bush as the next guy but republican politics and November elections have nothing to do with Reagan's death and the national hommage paid to him.

As for the issue of Eastern Europe and communism in relation to Reagan's influence, maybe if you lived there and understand the system and what it meant versus the Western European and American freedoms as witnessed by the existence of the Berlin Wall itself then there might be an appreciation for Reagan and his attitudes about communism and bankrupting the Soviets defence spending into oblivion. The less money the Soviets had the more difficult it was to ensure that they could lend support to the respective governments of Eastern Europe to maintain social control continuously against the rising tide of public revolts. Reagan didn't end communism singlehandedly but he sure did give it a good asskicking at every opportunity, the Eastern Europeans did the job in the end.

My thoughts on this thread:


1) The argument about showing Regan's funeral - a person who is remembered as a public servant - to the public is ridicilous.

2) The argument about showing servicemen's funerals is as equally ridicilous. I have seen at least two "flag-drapped" funerals of Houston-men who had died in service of their country in Iraq on the local TV.

Those that argue that these funerals have some negative effect and are therefore censored by the government, how do you respond to that? TV broadcast of the funerals of Texan serviceman by Texan media - probably some of the most right-wing media you can find in the nation.

It is not the "right" that is censoring these funerals, it is the left. Do you see similar funerals on your local stations in California and New York?

Military funerals are not censored. I am sure if the family wishes the media will not be there, they will try and respect. This is not the case however. I have never heard of a case where the family has asked the media to leave and they were still there. Same goes for the funeral of Regan - if the Regans would have wished it not to have been televised, it wouldn't have been.

So if we want to start playing politics.. you might want to question your assumptions further.


3) Regan did help bring down the fall of the soviet union. True the Soviet Union would have fallen sooner or later, but because of Regan it fell sooner. For all we know the whole empire could have lasted twenty even fifty more years without him. Regan put the pressure on the soviet union - He was the first president to put the financial and moral pressure on the Union, which lead to its demise.

He termed them "evil empire" - this phrasing did much to help the uprising in Eastern Europe. Regan operated against common western European sympathies at the time and helped increase funding of Radio free Europe, and helped arm the uprising - actions all his predeccsors refused to do in hopes of not angering the Russians.
DJ_Irish, you will hear many of the Eastern Europeans leaders who lead the uprising sing great praise of Regan. I've heard one such leader in an interview who said that without Regan the revolutions would have gone no where.

Omg, I got it now! Reagan intentionally died now so that the press would be filled with stories how it was a republican president who was responsible for ending communism, which will help Bush win another term!

Now, seriously, Reagan maybe accelerated the fall of Soviet Union, but I hardly believe that it would last much longer considering the leadership it ended up with. After Brezhnyev and Hruschov, the Soviet Union no longer had a capable leader. Gorbachov was bent on installing a more liberal rule, which could have been a good thing, but the way he actually carried it through was as mismanaged as the american rebuilding of post-war Iraq. It's the perestroika that turned the union into a bunch of little dictatorships, Reagan had little to do with it, except perhaps convincing Gorbachov that it's a good idea to carry through.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus DJ_Irish, you will hear many of the Eastern Europeans leaders who lead the uprising sing great praise of Regan. I've heard one such leader in an interview who said that without Regan the revolutions would have gone no where.

Oh yes, I don't doubt that. I never contended that Reagan had nothing to do with the demise of the Sovjet Union. Only that he wasn't the only part of it. I just came to think about it when I was reading various news outlets on the web.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus My thoughts on this thread: 1) The argument about showing Regan's funeral - a person who is remembered as a public servant - to the public is ridicilous.

Agreed.

quote:

2) The argument about showing servicemen's funerals is as equally ridicilous. I have seen at least two "flag-drapped" funerals of Houston-men who had died in service of their country in Iraq on the local TV. Those that argue that these funerals have some negative effect and are therefore censored by the government, how do you respond to that? TV broadcast of the funerals of Texan serviceman by Texan media - probably some of the most right-wing media you can find in the nation. It is not the "right" that is censoring these funerals, it is the left. Do you see similar funerals on your local stations in California and New York? Military funerals are not censored. I am sure if the family wishes the media will not be there, they will try and respect. This is not the case however. I have never heard of a case where the family has asked the media to leave and they were still there. Same goes for the funeral of Regan - if the Regans would have wished it not to have been televised, it wouldn't have been. So if we want to start playing politics.. you might want to question your assumptions further.

What assumption? There is a mandate from the DOD NOT to release pictures from Dover AFB - that's not Left or Right media at work - that's our government.

If they showed a funeral service in Texas - fine. I'm sure it was done with full consent of the family in a highly respectable manner.

The question remains, however, why does this Administration feel it necessary to censure something that has never been censured before?

And should we really be upset with the press or the public outcry with the release of these photos, given this Administration's propensity for secrecy?

quote:

3) Regan did help bring down the fall of the soviet union. True the Soviet Union would have fallen sooner or later, but because of Regan it fell sooner. For all we know the whole empire could have lasted twenty even fifty more years without him. Regan put the pressure on the soviet union - He was the first president to put the financial and moral pressure on the Union, which lead to its demise. He termed them "evil empire" - this phrasing did much to help the uprising in Eastern Europe. Regan operated against common western European sympathies at the time and helped increase funding of Radio free Europe, and helped arm the uprising - actions all his predeccsors refused to do in hopes of not angering the Russians. DJ_Irish, you will hear many of the Eastern Europeans leaders who lead the uprising sing great praise of Regan. I've heard one such leader in an interview who said that without Regan the revolutions would have gone no where.

I've heard certain Leftist arguments about the fall of Communism being well on it's way without the help of Reagan. A coupla Leftist commentators even went so far as to say that Reagan only elongated the fall of Soviet Communism.

I think my thoughts on the matter are that Communism was no doubt failing, and it's days were certainly numbered. To me, Reagan likely had a role in it's downfall - hell if Gorbechov himself states that Reagan contributed to the downfall of Communism, I'd have to agree with him. Honestly, that's about all I have on that particular topic.

The funeral procession on Friday was pretty interesting and moving. I thought the two eulogies from Reagan's daughter and adopted son couldn't have been any different, but they both spoke from their hearts and I simply can't fault them for that. The most moving moment for me personally was, of course, Nancy's final goodbye to her husband, weeping and hugging the coffin as her children came up to comfort her. I don't shed tears too often, but that moment sincerely moved me. I can't even begin to imagine how terribly difficult these last few years have been on Nancy with her husband suffering from Alzheimer's. Everyone seems to want to cherish and remember Ronald's politics above everything else. I simply cannot raise his politics above the love he and his wife shared. To me that was his greatest strength.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I can't even begin to imagine how terribly difficult these last few years have been on Nancy with her husband suffering from Alzheimer's. Everyone seems to want to cherish and remember Ronald's politics above everything else. I simply cannot raise his politics above the love he and his wife shared. To me that was his greatest strength.

Not that i don't agree with you here, but this pretty much prove our point, a picture/tv show so much more than anything else. Millions of people dies every year cause of Alzheimer, many people support their dying family members, yet you feel so much compassion for Nancy Reagan but not for the many others that has the same problem.


also, Alzheimer may have been stopped if bush had some other stem cell policies, just had to say that sorry

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Not that i don't agree with you here, but this pretty much prove our point, a picture/tv show so much more than anything else. Millions of people dies every year cause of Alzheimer, many people support their dying family members, yet you feel so much compassion for Nancy Reagan but not for the many others that has the same problem.

Well, I'm not sure I'd necessarily disagree with you here, but I do think it may actually help to put this disease into the limelight a little more, which may help funding in the long run.

I am projecting a little bit here, though.

quote:

also, Alzheimer may have been stopped if bush had some other stem cell policies, just had to say that sorry

I certainly wouldn't think it would have been "stopped", per se, or even cured for that matter, even if we had full access to stem cells. However, we certainly could have had better scientific advances by now. Who knows.

Nancy Reagan, to her credit, is scorning and chiding Bush every chance she can get about this issue. And for that, she has my applause. Issues such as these are always fun to talk about politically...until someone close to you is critically affected.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Well, I'm not sure I'd necessarily disagree with you here, but I do think it may actually help to put this disease into the limelight a little more, which may help funding in the long run. I am projecting a little bit here, though.

yeah i have nothing against it, just show what this thread had been mostly about, that pictures do effect people a lot and without them it's harder to understand.

quote:

I certainly wouldn't think it would have been "stopped", per se, or even cured for that matter, even if we had full access to stem cells. However, we certainly could have had better scientific advances by now. Who knows. Nancy Reagan, to her credit, is scorning and chiding Bush every chance she can get about this issue. And for that, she has my applause. Issues such as these are always fun to talk about politically...until someone close to you is critically affected.

true, tho, it may have helped, perhaps not for him but for future people with alzheimers... quite recently there actually was a successful stem cell transplantation/operation of an Alzeimers patient in sweden so yeah, perhaps even for him but i said that moslty cause i think it's fun to use every chance to pick on bush

they should do a study on short term memory loss in the White House, because it seems Presidents and their top officials have real problem recalling things like... memos they've issued on torture. Who knows maybe stem cell research could be the key to over coming this disorder.

This thread is so funny i cant contain myself...

Reagans viewing..hAHAHAHAHA.. lets wait 12 hours to walk past a stupid coffin.

For fucks sake, this is pathetic.

People mourning a man responsible for funding coups that killed several thousand people.. how can you guys be sad. In my opinion, hes just like Saddam....Saddam is probably sad his old oil buddy is dead. Oh well,,, hell always remember Reagan turning his back when he gassed the kurds!

Im really happy to see him dead.. what a great week its been.

Sure took you a long time to chime in Cyrus, away on vacation?

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Sure took you a long time to chime in Cyrus, away on vacation?

I was banned for a bit for stating my legitemate opinion...plus.. i havent really been home this week.

The almighty took his power and unbanned me.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I was banned for a bit for stating my legitemate opinion...plus.. i havent really been home this week. The almighty took his power and unbanned me.

Translation: I was banned for acting like a classless jerk, so I decided to take a few days away from my computer.

After whining to the moderators and promising to behave like something above a 13 year old, I have been given yet another chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Translation: I was banned for acting like a classless jerk, so I decided to take a few days away from my computer. After whining to the moderators and promising to behave like something above a 13 year old, I have been given yet another chance.

Oh prodding the guy on parole. So evil


MisterOpus - we have been through the argument with the military's ban on displaying bodies on its property while via transit. Regardless to your opinion, the military has the legal right to do that.

If you disagree with it change the law. Personally, I don't care one way or the other on the issue because it in and of itself is insignificant.

You do get to see the coffins and you do get to see the funerals <-- my point. Therefore the argument that we should see those military funerals in addition or instead of Regan is a mute point. This was the initial argument on the subject.


As for stem cell research - I agree with you here. This is perhaps the one issue where my beliefes are most hmm how should I put it...? anitbush.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Oh prodding the guy on parole. So evil MisterOpus - we have been through the argument with the military's ban on displaying bodies on its property while via transit. Regardless to your opinion, the military has the legal right to do that. If you disagree with it change the law. Personally, I don't care one way or the other on the issue because it in and of itself is insignificant. You do get to see the coffins and you do get to see the funerals <-- my point. Therefore the argument that we should see those military funerals in addition or instead of Regan is a mute point. This was the initial argument on the subject. As for stem cell research - I agree with you here. This is perhaps the one issue where my beliefes are most hmm how should I put it...? anitbush.

Okay okay, I'll back off. Besides, I think we're both on "repeat" mode and are simply regurgitating our arguments. I'll agree to disagree on this one, and I'm more than happy to move on. There are much greater disagreements I have with this Administration than this, and I also kinda felt bad tying it to Reagan's funeral. I do think that analogy is not the best one to make here.

Besides, someone just opened up the "Religious debate..." thread, and I've gotta concentrate my anti-fundy mojo over there.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Translation: I was banned for acting like a classless jerk, so I decided to take a few days away from my computer. After whining to the moderators and promising to behave like something above a 13 year old, I have been given yet another chance.

Ronald REAGAN IS ROTTING!!!!!!!!!! GOOOOD! And to all those MORONS walking around his stupid casket... well.. they are all sheep

Stupid stupid people..i laughed my face off when i saw that line up... I am so glad im canadian

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Ronald REAGAN IS ROTTING!!!!!!!!!! GOOOOD! And to all those MORONS walking around his stupid casket... well.. they are all sheep Stupid stupid people..i laughed my face off when i saw that line up... I am so glad im canadian

Oh Cyrus, how I missed the (I think).

Perhaps a little easier on the hate rhetoric, that way you won't get banned again? Nothin' wrong with dissenting views, and I do think you have a worthy view, but I just think you're headin' for trouble with the words you choose.

Man I've been away too long. Look at all that I missed! Anyway, I kinda liked the gipper.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Man I've been away too long. Look at all that I missed! Anyway, I kinda liked the gipper.

I missed your ultra conservative Democrat viewpoint.

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