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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: no, i meant that it was unreadable. unless the gospels of thomas and mary are in the bible, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

They are very relevant to the discussion. The bible is very one sided on the issue, and many parts were intentionally thrown out at the council of Nicaea to amplify Jesus's god like nature and to make christianity more in line with major cults of the time. Those expelled parts are very important in helping us realize what really happened during that time period. If they are authentic, of course.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Two words: Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37-100). Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus. He was also a Jew. His complete works are available online or in your local library/bookstore. You can find his works in the Judaica section.

Well, supposedly the quote you mentioned is likely to be a somewhat edited version of the original text which is reconstructed as follows:

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At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.

http://www.livius.org/jo-jz/josephus/josephus.htm

Besides, Flavius Josephus wasn't a real contemporary, he wrote his works about 50 years after Jesus had died.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Besides, Flavius Josephus wasn't a real contemporary, he wrote his works about 50 years after Jesus had died.

Your original argument was:

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 ...If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time....

I closed that argument.

But you want to start another by arguing neither men were contemporaries of each other:
contemporary :
1. Belonging to the same period of time: a fact documented by two contemporary sources.
2. Of about the same age.
3. Current; modern: contemporary trends in design.

I said it before, Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus.

But just like in days ago, people now find anything to deny Christ ever existed just by saying he was never written about. And in that same sphere of nonsense they write garbage of him being married and surviving the crucifixion.
Also there are others that find the time to write VOLUMES about people that were hardly mentioned in the Bible. Like Enoch or Melchizedek. Little is known about these two people but seems like there are many millionaire writers wanting to tell you alot about them.
Then comes the multi-millionaires on how they have THE right prophecy book to sell.
All this just mars Christendom and only helps evil TRY to conquer truth by having people like you believe in all this.

And people swear their mind is their own. Go figure.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Your original argument was: I closed that argument. But you want to start another by arguing neither men were contemporaries of each other: contemporary : 1. Belonging to the same period of time: a fact documented by two contemporary sources. 2. Of about the same age. 3. Current; modern: contemporary trends in design. I said it before, Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus. But just like in days ago, people now find anything to deny Christ ever existed just by saying he was never written about. And in that same sphere of nonsense they write garbage of him being married and surviving the crucifixion. Also there are others that find the time to write VOLUMES about people that were hardly mentioned in the Bible. Like Enoch or Melchizedek. Little is known about these two people but seems like there are many millionaire writers wanting to tell you alot about them. Then comes the multi-millionaires on how they have THE right prophecy book to sell. All this just mars Christendom and only helps evil TRY to conquer truth by having people like you believe in all this. And people swear their mind is their own. Go figure.

I dont think anyone here is denying Jesus existed, just that what we see in the Bible is not an accurate description of the events that actually took place in Jesus' life...

And it's a little rich telling us that our minds are not our own coming from a Christian who's argument boils down to mere 'faith' and blind belief in what the Roman Church decided was right...

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Originally posted by George Smiley And it's a little rich telling us that our minds are not our own coming from a Christian who's argument boils down to mere 'faith' and blind belief in what the Roman Church decided was right...

No one ever said that Christianity is spoken for by the catholic sect. That's like saying all muslims are wahabis. I've never been catholic but that is besides the point to your labeling me. By your labeling me that could only mean one thing: that you're either an ex-catholic or ex-christian. Maybe you lost a loved one and blamed God or your church. Maybe you were molested by a catholic priest and feel anger against the church. I never said I was catholic but by your grouping me and the catholic church in a discussion that wasn't meant for you, made me think that you are one of those that where hurt by your priest or church.

I could never understand what is is to be molested. But I can tell you that God had nothing to do with your de-flowering. You should not go blaming anyone including yourself. Just pick up what's left of your life and move on and ask God to help you. If you don't want God than that's OK. He never went against your free will at any time.

It's like the story of Adam and Eve. Eve was given a choice to eat from the fruit from the Tree of Life or eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

Guess which one she and countless others choose:

The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Your original argument was: I closed that argument. But you want to start another by arguing neither men were contemporaries of each other: contemporary : 1. Belonging to the same period of time: a fact documented by two contemporary sources. 2. Of about the same age. 3. Current; modern: contemporary trends in design. I said it before, Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus.

Well, if you take the term contemporary in its broader sense, meaning that they belong to the same period of time, then Caesar was a contemporary of Diocletian and I'm a contemporary of Churchill.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 No one ever said that Christianity is spoken for by the catholic sect. That's like saying all muslims are wahabis. I've never been catholic but that is besides the point to your labeling me. By your labeling me that could only mean one thing: that you're either an ex-catholic or ex-christian. Maybe you lost a loved one and blamed God or your church. Maybe you were molested by a catholic priest and feel anger against the church. I never said I was catholic but by your grouping me and the catholic church in a discussion that wasn't meant for you, made me think that you are one of those that where hurt by your priest or church. I could never understand what is is to be molested. But I can tell you that God had nothing to do with your de-flowering. You should not go blaming anyone including yourself. Just pick up what's left of your life and move on and ask God to help you. If you don't want God than that's OK. He never went against your free will at any time. It's like the story of Adam and Eve. Eve was given a choice to eat from the fruit from the Tree of Life or eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Guess which one she and countless others choose: The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

Riiiiight...anyway...

I never said you were Catholic I was merely pointing out that it was the Roman Catholic Church who decided what was included and what was excluded in the Bible and as far as I am aware it is that Bible that all the rest of em are based on so it matters not what brand of xtian you are

As for Eve and the tree of knowledge, early xtian/jewish sects believed that knowledge is god and that the serpent must have been 'good' for recommending the apple to Eve, but those sects were wiped out by the Catholic Church, so again, we have an example of how the Church played a part in rewriting history to suit its perticular opinions and needs

And if you are after more examples of how your Bible has been doctored and editied by humans 100s of years after the death of Jesus I will be only too happy to provide them

John 8:42-45
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 John 8:42-45 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

Erm...any chance of explaining your post?? I don't know what point you are trying to make

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm...any chance of explaining your post?? I don't know what point you are trying to make

My guess is that he's trying to say we've been decieved and misguided by the evil Satan and that's why we're not taking the bible and texts that are written 50 years after Jesus's death as granted. Eh, gotta call my exorcist before the demon posesses me beyond repair.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 My guess is that he's trying to say we've been decieved and misguided by the evil Satan and that's why we're not taking the bible and texts that are written 50 years after Jesus's death as granted. Eh, gotta call my exorcist before the demon posesses me beyond repair.

I've always wondered if we have God and the Devil the wrong way round. Lets face it, the Devil lets us do fun stuff, lets us experience life to the fullest. Whereas God demands we abide by his rules, demands we worship him, kills people (did you ever hear of the Devil killing anyone?). My theory is that this is the biggest propaganda/PR stunt of all time!

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Originally posted by George Smiley I've always wondered if we have God and the Devil the wrong way round. Lets face it, the Devil lets us do fun stuff, lets us experience life to the fullest. Whereas God demands we abide by his rules, demands we worship him, kills people (did you ever hear of the Devil killing anyone?). My theory is that this is the biggest propaganda/PR stunt of all time!

Yeah, after all as ogvh said, the devil is the deciever and god is the one who's telling the truth. Now, take the bible for example, a large part of it is obviously crap and fairy tales, and almost everything else is unconfirmed. Even if we look at biblical stories, the devil is the one who wants us people to get informed and to think with our own heads, while god just wants us to unconditionally obey him and believe every thing he says, even when those things contradict other things he says. Therefore we must conclude that the person we thought was god is actually the deciever (and quite a lame one, imo), and that we've been worshiping the wrong dude all along! Oh, well, Salve Satanas it is then!

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

quote:

I've always wondered if we have God and the Devil the wrong way round. Lets face it, the Devil lets us do fun stuff, lets us experience life to the fullest. Whereas God demands we abide by his rules, demands we worship him, kills people (did you ever hear of the Devil killing anyone?). My theory is that this is the biggest propaganda/PR stunt of all time!

quote:

Yeah, after all as ogvh said, the devil is the deciever and god is the one who's telling the truth. Now, take the bible for example, a large part of it is obviously crap and fairy tales, and almost everything else is unconfirmed. Even if we look at biblical stories, the devil is the one who wants us people to get informed and to think with our own heads, while god just wants us to unconditionally obey him and believe every thing he says, even when those things contradict other things he says. Therefore we must conclude that the person we thought was god is actually the deciever (and quite a lame one, imo), and that we've been worshiping the wrong dude all along! Oh, well, Salve Satanas it is then!

I knew this thread would eventually make sense

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

Yes quite...

Anyway, little off topic but I was wondering if you could tell me about the Lazarus story?

I've always suspected that the disciplines of Jesus and the writers of the books in the New Testament were high on something, perhaps wine, as it has been mentioned vigorously throughout the entire Jewish history . And most likely old Johny boy was high on their local fab crack in time

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

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Originally posted by kaffeemeister I've always suspected that the disciplines of Jesus and the writers of the books in the New Testament were high on something, perhaps wine, as it has been mentioned vigorously throughout the entire Jewish history . And most likely old Johny boy was high on their local fab crack in time KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

And Ned Flanders is the sterotypical Christian. lol

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus not to butt your argument, but I think humans are quiet capable of acting outside their 'nature' as gays/transexuals/St. Andrew/pedophiles and the like have demonstrated ok I'm sorry St. Andrew, that one was pretty bad

i will kill ya

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Originally posted by St_Andrew i will kill ya

what took you so long?

i wrote that so long ago this thread was actually on topic....

Anyway I was just about to be leaving to an undisclosed location.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus what took you so long? i wrote that so long ago this thread was actually on topic.... Anyway I was just about to be leaving to an undisclosed location.

Maybe we should just have one great big thread to discuss religion?! Or, some of us will discuss it some will preach passages out of the Bible at us and call that an undisputed argument!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Maybe we should just have one great big thread to discuss religion?! Or, some of us will discuss it some will preach passages out of the Bible at us and call that an undisputed argument!

nah bad idea. its much easier to hijack some random thread then scroll 100 pages ....

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Originally posted by Yoepus what took you so long? i wrote that so long ago this thread was actually on topic.... Anyway I was just about to be leaving to an undisclosed location.

well the topic seemed boring at first, so i kinda neglected the whole thread... then i got a tip from someone that it was some hillarious religous debating in here so i figured i had to skim it trough and what did i see

and oh btw, there's no way you can hide from me im good at this stuff you know

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew well the topic seemed boring at first, so i kinda neglected the whole thread... then i got a tip from someone that it was some hillarious religous debating in here so i figured i had to skim it trough and what did i see and oh btw, there's no way you can hide from me im good at this stuff you know

Oi! Less of the hilarious!

after reading:

George Smiley: 1
Trance Van Dyk: 0

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew well the topic seemed boring at first, so i kinda neglected the whole thread... then i got a tip from someone that it was some hillarious religous debating in here so i figured i had to skim it trough and what did i see and oh btw, there's no way you can hide from me im good at this stuff you know

Yeah, I'm sure years of sneaking up to those lonely goats roaming frozen scandinavian plains have resulted in good tracking skills

j/k, nhf

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