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Originally posted by Dunya 35 million? They don't care about them. They care only about theirselves and so called Israel. The United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year. Well ofcourse it doesn't matter they are zionists anyway.

Uhm, 350 million not 35, and that's just the start, not taking into account private donations or military costs. I realize that the world believes America should fend for itself, but where was the foreign aid when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes this year? Everyone expects the US to pump billions into foreign aid and ask for nothing in return, but why can't the opposite be true? How much foreign aid was given after 9/11? (These are geniune questions as much as they are commentary)

its about 2 billion $ of all donantions right now i think

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Originally posted by Dunya 35 million? They don't care about them. They care only about theirselves and so called Israel. The United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year. Well ofcourse it doesn't matter they are zionists anyway.

Nice German flag... frankly I find these statements utterly ridiculous. And I have heard it from many Americans. A lot people cite Israel as a reason all aid should come from private hands.

As much as I detest Bush and felt he didn't handle the situation well initially they are doing whats neccesary to get aid into the region. Don't politicize the situation to turn it against Israel. That is stupid and shortsighted.

Furthermore, Israel has also sent technical aid to the region. Albeit with problems stemming from Sri Lanka but they aren't sitting by. Last I read, German and French aid was a abysmal yet you have the audacity to criticize the US. Thats cute.

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Originally posted by NYGblue Nice German flag...

Belgium ... argument still holds.

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Originally posted by occrider Belgium ... argument still holds.

LoL I did know that... whoops.. just sorta looked at the colors...

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Originally posted by DJ Tom So the US donates: -US Donates $35 Million. TA's bitch about how the global super power is stupid for not donating enough. They bitch, wine, and complain and call them stupid Americans.

I did not bitch about the Americans not contributing enough, I simply brought up those statistics because everyone seems to be acting as the Americans have been so generous in giving to this cause yet in reality it's as much as throwing pennies to these people. If people ACTUALLY wanted to help these poorer nations in Asia they would have done so BEFORE the disaster. Not spend their resources in occupying other countries and then telling themselves "Oh shit, Asia just got hammered, now we have to spend our damn money on them again, God Damn it."

You ignorant pro-Americans can believe what you want. You soon will face the reality other people face in this world.

Me gustan los aviones, me gustas tu.
Me gusta viajar, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la ma�ana, me gustas tu.
Me gusta el viento, me gustas tu.
Me gusta so�ar, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la mar, me gustas tu.

Me gusta la moto, me gustas tu.
Me gusta correr, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la lluvia, me gustas tu.
Me gusta volver, me gustas tu.
Me gusta marijuana, me gustas tu.
Me gusta colombiana, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la monta�a, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la noche, me gustas tu.

Me gusta la cena, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la vecina, me gustas tu.
Me gusta su cocina, me gustas tu.
Me gusta camelar, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la guitarra, me gustas tu.
Me gusta el reggae, me gustas tu.

Me gusta la canela, me gustas tu.
Me gusta el fuego, me gustas tu.
Me gusta menear, me gustas tu.
Me gusta La Coru�a, me gustas tu.
Me gusta Malasa�a, me gustas tu.
Me gusta la casta�a, me gustas tu.
Me gusta Guatemala, me gustas tu.

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic Me gustan los aviones, me gustas tu. Me gusta viajar, me gustas tu. Me gusta la ma�ana, me gustas tu. Me gusta el viento, me gustas tu. Me gusta so�ar, me gustas tu. Me gusta la mar, me gustas tu. Me gusta la moto, me gustas tu. Me gusta correr, me gustas tu. Me gusta la lluvia, me gustas tu. Me gusta volver, me gustas tu. Me gusta marijuana, me gustas tu. Me gusta colombiana, me gustas tu. Me gusta la monta�a, me gustas tu. Me gusta la noche, me gustas tu. Me gusta la cena, me gustas tu. Me gusta la vecina, me gustas tu. Me gusta su cocina, me gustas tu. Me gusta camelar, me gustas tu. Me gusta la guitarra, me gustas tu. Me gusta el reggae, me gustas tu. Me gusta la canela, me gustas tu. Me gusta el fuego, me gustas tu. Me gusta menear, me gustas tu. Me gusta La Coru�a, me gustas tu. Me gusta Malasa�a, me gustas tu. Me gusta la casta�a, me gustas tu. Me gusta Guatemala, me gustas tu.

Manu Chao...

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic I did not bitch about the Americans not contributing enough, I simply brought up those statistics because everyone seems to be acting as the Americans have been so generous in giving to this cause yet in reality it's as much as throwing pennies to these people. If people ACTUALLY wanted to help these poorer nations in Asia they would have done so BEFORE the disaster. Not spend their resources in occupying other countries and then telling themselves "Oh shit, Asia just got hammered, now we have to spend our damn money on them again, God Damn it." You ignorant pro-Americans can believe what you want. You soon will face the reality other people face in this world.

Hindsight 20/20 / Doomsday threats are cool.

Geologist gave repeated warnings

A leading geologist repeatedly warned Indonesian officals that an eartquake and tsunami would soon strike their shores.
Kerry Sieh,professor of geology at California Institute of Technology,has been studying the region for nearly a decade.

Last july he became so concerned at the likely massive loss of life that he printed and ditributed 5,000 posters and brochures around some of the islands later hit by the quake.

Ten years ago Sieh installed monitors on the Mentawai islands,a chain 100 miles south of the epicentre of the St Stephens Day quake.The monitors use satellite positioning to measure the precise movements of the land.

Sieh had been due to meet Indonesian officals last month to discuss a wider education programme but the meeting was cancelled at the last minute because the officals said there was no money to fund such a programme.

Two weeks ago at a conference in San Francisco he repeated his warning that a big earthquake and tsunami were overdue in the region he said his warnings to the Indonesian government were falling on deaf ears.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Uhm, 350 million not 35, and that's just the start, not taking into account private donations or military costs. I realize that the world believes America should fend for itself, but where was the foreign aid when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes this year? Everyone expects the US to pump billions into foreign aid and ask for nothing in return, but why can't the opposite be true? How much foreign aid was given after 9/11? (These are geniune questions as much as they are commentary)

How many people lost their lives in the florida hurricane? Not that many... less than a 100? this is sooooo much bigger, i just dont get how you can compare the two. and just for the record, i think you did recive foregin aid after 9/11! which is also a much smaller catastrophe than so many others that have occured since.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush speakes 3 DAYS AFTER and only 35 Million given...woooowww...

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Originally posted by eXstatic Typical American response, but I guess when you're the number one hated country in the world reverting a massive portion of your revenue to military defensive systems is top priority. *If you actually believe your government is sending aid to Asia out of freewill then you are in need of a serious reality wakeup call Neil. How would it look if the most powerful country in the world stood by and watched people dying of AIDs and those in Asia. You guys would be furtherly condemned.

Bill Gates has given a lot money to AIDS research. The Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation
His foundation has given 3,974,467,219 dollarsas of November of 2004. Since his foundation has given almost 4 billion dollars, you do not think that this is enough?
AIDS at 20
Bush pledges 200 billion dollars and the Democrats complain that he should give more. THe article also states that the US is the only nation to pledge, but this article was published in October.

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Originally posted by eXstatic You people claim you gave $2.4 Billion last year in aid. Look at Canada's statistics...$2.4 Billion is pratically wiping my ass and throwing you the rag, it's nothing, especially if you government spends multiplies of that figure NOT ON HOME SECURITY but on occupying other countries. So DO NOT come in here and tell me the U.S. is generous and we give aid because we are such kind-hearted people, and at the same time claiming "self-preservation" before foreign aid.

Gates has given nearly 4 billion dollars to causes and then Bush pledges 200 billion for AIDS. What do you want? The entire GDP of the United States!!!!!! Bitch Bitch Bitch! That 200 billion alone will crap all over your 2.4 billion CDN.

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Originally posted by eXstatic Your government has done little for home security, spending your financies on wars outside your nations border, and throwing the world a few pennies, just to implant in their minds that 'We aren't the cold hearted fukers everyone thinks we are.'

So defend our nation is a SIN?!? To prevent another 9/11 is a crime? To hunt down these terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11. To get those who killed sailors when a bomb laden boat hit the USS Cole. The Invasion of Afghanistan had international support. In Iraq, over 20 nations are with us. To take your example, the United States should have not invaded Italy or Germany in World war II. They did not attack us directly, but they were allied with Japan who had attacked us.

If 200 billion is chump change in your opinion what is a reasonable amount?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew How many people lost their lives in the florida hurricane? Not that many... less than a 100? this is sooooo much bigger, i just dont get how you can compare the two. and just for the record, i think you did recive foregin aid after 9/11! which is also a much smaller catastrophe than so many others that have occured since.

My point was not amount, but if any at all. Yes, this is a disaster not on the scale of those I mentioned, but you still had thousands without homes, much the same as you do here. If the international community expects the US to bare the overwhelming burden when it comes to these disasters, why can't the international community help the US with theirs? I'd also add that in a scene like this or any other disaster, it is not the dead you worry about, it is the survivors. The death toll can give you the magnitude of the disaster, or at least the unpreparedness of those going through it, but not the scale of what aid is needed afterward.

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic I did not bitch about the Americans not contributing enough, I simply brought up those statistics because everyone seems to be acting as the Americans have been so generous in giving to this cause yet in reality it's as much as throwing pennies to these people.

Read this carefully you hypocrite. I am not bitching about money but I point out that the US gives only pennies.

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Originally posted by eXstatic You ignorant pro-Americans can believe what you want. You soon will face the reality other people face in this world.

Again more bitching about money. Than give your own money. Volunteer at the Red Cross. Give a Check to the Red Cross, UNECIF, etc. Instead of bitch, act! Many Trance Addicts gave money to aid organizations, what have YOU done? What reality? Do you wish that others die in the US to experience others suffering. Hurricanes pound the Atlantic each year. Preventive measures prevent the loss of life but not property damage. Wildfires destroy thousands of acres of land and homes. Rains and floods affect thousands each year. In 1997, in my state the entire cities of Grand Forks and East Grand Forks were flooded. The dikes broke and the combined population of 75,000 were left homeless. Then a fire broke out as the water was several feet deep. All the city could do is watch it burn. My family lost their home and many possessions.

And you want me to expericene something again!!! GO TO HELL!!!!

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Originally posted by NeoPhono My point was not amount, but if any at all. Yes, this is a disaster not on the scale of those I mentioned, but you still had thousands without homes, much the same as you do here. If the international community expects the US to bare the overwhelming burden when it comes to these disasters, why can't the international community help the US with theirs? I'd also add that in a scene like this or any other disaster, it is not the dead you worry about, it is the survivors. The death toll can give you the magnitude of the disaster, or at least the unpreparedness of those going through it, but not the scale of what aid is needed afterward.

true, but usually developed countries can take care of themselves unless its something very unusual... i dont think the US ever gave aid to all the cathastropes that occured in europe lately (although none of them was really bad, but we had ours too ), yet europe give a lot more aid per capita than the US

i would never excpect developing countries to repay the aid we are giving away, nor would i expect any help from other countries unless its a very unusual big thing. i think its really a egocentric way of thinking to actually even say that :S

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Originally posted by St_Andrew true, but usually developed countries can take care of themselves unless its something very unusual... i dont think the US ever gave aid to all the cathastropes that occured in europe lately (although none of them was really bad, but we had ours too ), yet europe give a lot more aid per capita than the US i would never excpect developing countries to repay the aid we are giving away, nor would i expect any help from other countries unless its a very unusual big thing. i think its really a egocentric way of thinking to actually even say that :S

What castastrophes are you referring to?

Also, this per capita thing has me perplexed. When the US explains its military spending in terms of GDP it is laughed at, but somehow justifying how much a nation should spend due to its GDP is okay.

Also, all this talk does not take into account individual and business contributions to charity, of which the US donates more of its money than any other nation. In 2002, 184 billion was given to charity by private individuals and another 60 billion by businesses which is well over 2% of the US GDP and well over the 0.7% asked for by the UN.

I don't expect to have these underdeveloped nations pay the US back either, but if other developed nations can critique the US and its spending, I can critique them for not helping the US when it is in need of aid.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono What castastrophes are you referring to? Also, this per capita thing has me perplexed. When the US explains its military spending in terms of GDP it is laughed at, but somehow justifying how much a nation should spend due to its GDP is okay. Also, all this talk does not take into account individual and business contributions to charity, of which the US donates more of its money than any other nation. In 2002, 184 billion was given to charity by private individuals and another 60 billion by businesses which is well over 2% of the US GDP and well over the 0.7% asked for by the UN. I don't expect to have these underdeveloped nations pay the US back either, but if other developed nations can critique the US and its spending, I can critique them for not helping the US when it is in need of aid.

I think you can say with a degree of absolute certainty that if a disaster of the magnitude we are dealing with now in asia were to hit the USA,and if on some level resources or aid were nescessary the first countrys to respond would be practically every country in europe.
America would for most purposes be able to deal with most situations itself such as large scale flooding etc.
As far as i recall specialised rescue teams from europe did take part in the immeadiate aftermath of 9/11.
And im sure all the americans had to do was make a phonecall to the head of the EU if further aid or specialised people were required.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush speakes 3 DAYS AFTER and only 35 Million given...woooowww.....

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Originally posted by eXstatic Typical American response, but I guess when you're the number one hated country in the world reverting a massive portion of your revenue to military defensive systems is top priority. *If you actually believe your government is sending aid to Asia out of freewill then you are in need of a serious reality wakeup call Neil. How would it look if the most powerful country in the world stood by and watched people dying of AIDs and those in Asia. You guys would be furtherly condemned.

Do you think being hated really matters to me or most Americans? Really its so far down on the list of things I ever would think about, why bother getting your blood pressure in a boil over what someone from some distant land thinks of you.

My reality is fine. No nation WANTS to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on something they will never see any returns in, in terms of their own standing, however when a global need arises such as this people make sacrifices. Perhaps instead you just can't see through your anti American hatred and actually believe that the world can actually be compassionate about a disaster.

This applies to every country on the planet, not just the US. If any country did not give help they would be seen as selfish and uncaring, however based on the amount of money one country makes alone they should not feel obligated to carry the burdens of the entire world upon their beck and call, when the same nations that may ask for help turn their backs when help is needed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush speakes 3 DAYS AFTER and only 35 Million given...wooooww

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Originally posted by Reverend_Trance Bill Gates has given a lot money to AIDS research. The Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation His foundation has given 3,974,467,219 dollarsas of November of 2004. Since his foundation has given almost 4 billion dollars, you do not think that this is enough? AIDS at 20 Bush pledges 200 billion dollars and the Democrats complain that he should give more. THe article also states that the US is the only nation to pledge, but this article was published in October. Gates has given nearly 4 billion dollars to causes and then Bush pledges 200 billion for AIDS. What do you want? The entire GDP of the United States!!!!!! Bitch Bitch Bitch! That 200 billion alone will crap all over your 2.4 billion CDN. So defend our nation is a SIN?!? To prevent another 9/11 is a crime? To hunt down these terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11. To get those who killed sailors when a bomb laden boat hit the USS Cole. The Invasion of Afghanistan had international support. In Iraq, over 20 nations are with us. To take your example, the United States should have not invaded Italy or Germany in World war II. They did not attack us directly, but they were allied with Japan who had attacked us. If 200 billion is chump change in your opinion what is a reasonable amount?

Everything you said was great until the bullshit you spewed about Iraq...

Originally posted by NeoPhono
Uhm, 350 million not 35, and that's just the start,

Well I mean by that when he said that after 3 days, (that's the topic duhh)

not taking into account private donations or military costs.

Are you kidding? That doesn't count,even in Europe there r many private donations but that doesn't count, I m talking about the goverment.


I realize that the world believes America should fend for itself, but where was the foreign aid when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes this year? Everyone expects the US to pump billions into foreign aid and ask for nothing in return, but why can't the opposite be true?

What are you expecting that countries like Somalia will help the USA?.
Lol, every EU member should help a developping country.It's an obligation to aid a percentage of their budget.

How much foreign aid was given after 9/11? (These are geniune questions as much as they are commentary) [/QUOTE]

Did you lost your mind? Ppl in Africa and Asia are concerning about AIDS, cholera, typhus, malaria ec. And you expect that they could help you? wait a few days maybe they will call your goverment and they will donate a few billions for the eleven sep victims.

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Originally posted by NYGblue Nice German flag... frankly I find these statements utterly ridiculous. And I have heard it from many Americans. A lot people cite Israel as a reason all aid should come from private hands. As much as I detest Bush and felt he didn't handle the situation well initially they are doing whats neccesary to get aid into the region. Don't politicize the situation to turn it against Israel. That is stupid and shortsighted. Furthermore, Israel has also sent technical aid to the region. Albeit with problems stemming from Sri Lanka but they aren't sitting by. Last I read, German and French aid was a abysmal yet you have the audacity to criticize the US. Thats cute.

You are confusing a German flag with the flag of Belguim while Spain is an EU member. I was making a comparison with billions of Israel ( the wall, making chemical waepons ec) and the donations for the Assia victims( they are wounded and almost dead)
Why can't I compare this? Truth hurts, it's hard but true.
Israel have sent technical aid that's nonsense, many other arabic countries Dubai ec did the same or more so that's not an argument.
Who is shortsighed now?

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Originally posted by Dunya Originally posted by NeoPhono Uhm, 350 million not 35, and that's just the start, Well I mean by that when he said that after 3 days, (that's the topic duhh) not taking into account private donations or military costs. Are you kidding? That doesn't count,even in Europe there r many private donations but that doesn't count, I m talking about the goverment. I realize that the world believes America should fend for itself, but where was the foreign aid when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes this year? Everyone expects the US to pump billions into foreign aid and ask for nothing in return, but why can't the opposite be true? What are you expecting that countries like Somalia will help the USA?. Lol, every EU member should help a developping country.It's an obligation to aid a percentage of their budget. How much foreign aid was given after 9/11? (These are geniune questions as much as they are commentary) Did you lost your mind? Ppl in Africa and Asia are concerning about AIDS, cholera, typhus, malaria ec. And you expect that they could help you? wait a few days maybe they will call your goverment and they will donate a few billions for the eleven sep victims.

Are you for real? Please read the rest of the posts in the thread. Thanks.

I'd like to mention just a few quick points as a biased Progressive.

-First off, I am personally not surprised that the money given by our government has risen so quickly and so high. I had the upmost confidence that this would have occurred one way or another, for one reason or another. As much as I disagree with this President, he is certainly experienced enough to know how to work well with major disasters such as this. I had fully expected this President to come through, and will expect him to continue to come through with funding if need be.

-That said, I am a bit disappointed with our initial amount of $15 million. That was paultry and extrememly low, and whoever gave that initial estimate by this Administration should be looking for work. Right or wrong, it gave ammo to other countries that could have easily been avoided. And what's more and is often not reported is it gave potential ammo to potential terrorists in the largest Muslim nation in the world (Indonesia). It was bad PR for us, and potential good PR for them. Certainly not what we need right now to win over the hearts and minds of Muslims right now. If anything, Bush and/or his advisors should have looked at it in this light. Remember this from the Pentagon:

quote:

The information campaign -- or as some still would have it, "the war of ideas," or the struggle for "hearts and minds" -- is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective, because the larger goals of U.S. strategy depend on separating the vast majority of non-violent Muslims from the radical-militant Islamist-Jihadists. But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended. http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/...mmunication.pdf

This is a perception battle, and I can only hope that our better-late-than-never approach to giving foreign aid to this disaster works out in our favor in the long run. The battle between us and the Muslim extremists in picking up potential recruits is the battle we cannot afford to lose.

-The move by Bush to include former Pres. Clinton and Pres. Bush Sr. was a good one, IMO. Again I think it should have been done sooner. And yes, I do tend to agree that he should have taken a shorter vacation (as should Kofi - thanks Izzy for the article) again for the PR perception value, and this move with the former Presidents done on his first day back from vacation, albeit a good move, would have been a better move to have taken place some time last week.

-I didn't hear the reports, but is $350 million our final offer? I wouldn't think it would be, but if so one may perceive his move to get the former Presidents involved for the private sector donations as a means of protecting our government funds, or shall I say a lack thereof thanks be to a huge deficit and debt. That's probably the most cynical point I may make, and admittedly may be incorrect from the start if this is certainly not the final offer we give out. Nevertheless it's Monday, and I feel a bit bitchy, so I'll just throw that one out there for all to munch on.

Overall I do have confidence that we'll get the proper funding one way or another, but I do think that Bush missed the boat a little bit on the PR value with other nations, especially with the Muslims. Hopefully we'll make up for this shortfall in the coming days, weeks, and months there.

So I just looked at the amazon.com international sites. Interesting results on donations:
(all amounts are in US $)

US: $8,938,862.42
Canada: $20,480.37
UK: $100,846.70
Japan: $3,367.00
Germany: $42,188.81
France: no option to donate on main page.
China (www.joyo.com): no option (but that is one crazy ass site and I don't read chineese)

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'd like to mention just a few quick points as a biased Progressive.

You made me laugh today(no surprise). New Years resolution #1...drop that damn "liberal" label.

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That said, I am a bit disappointed with our initial amount of $15 million. That was paultry and extrememly low, and whoever gave that initial estimate by this Administration should be looking for work.

Actually, I was too. However given how little was known since we're not talking about the most developed, industrialized nations with solid, established infrastructures(as so many have already pointed out), anyone who jumped to conclusions based on that "initial" amount was really only setting themselves up in the first place.

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Right or wrong, it gave ammo to other countries that could have easily been avoided.

Ammo that kinda backfired(pardon the pun).

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-I didn't hear the reports, but is $350 million our final offer? I wouldn't think it would be, but if so one may perceive his move to get the former Presidents involved for the private sector donations as a means of protecting our government funds, or shall I say a lack thereof thanks be to a huge deficit and debt. That's probably the most cynical point I may make, and admittedly may be incorrect from the start if this is certainly not the final offer we give out. Nevertheless it's Monday, and I feel a bit bitchy, so I'll just throw that one out there for all to munch on.

I don't think $350M is a "final offer". But as estimates and actual data pour in, better aid estimates can be made and further aide will flow where it's needed(hopefully more quickly rather than slowly). And let's not forget private/personal donations, which are not shown in any government figures, but which probably more accurately reflect individual persons' levels of generosity(not that anyone should ever be criticized for making any donation). Also, how do you put a pricetag on things like helicopters and ships that have gone in that can do things like purify hundreds of thousands of gallons of contaminated water for people to drink. yada yada yada, this argument goes on.

quote:

Overall I do have confidence that we'll get the proper funding one way or another, but I do think that Bush missed the boat a little bit on the PR value with other nations, especially with the Muslims. Hopefully we'll make up for this shortfall in the coming days, weeks, and months there.

I'll give you that Clinton would've probably made a public appearance earlier than Dubya, but only because he is a PR whore that never misses a chance to get some face time on the TV. In any event, it's a minor issue, IMO, and is not worth losing any sleep over. What matters is the aid that is there and helping out the people that need it-not arguing about who is giving the most and how they could've enhanced their reputation by looking at it after-the-fact.

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