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-- Is the war in Iraq worth your life if you joined the military?
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| Originally posted by LiquidX Well bunch of Iraquis are saying that they would rather have Saddam instead of a chaotic civil war. |
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| Originally posted by Dunya That is true many iraqies rather to have sadam than this civil war. I m not from Iraq but I agree with them either. Saddam wasn t that bad ...comparing to this US army who are making their porn fatasies reality like abu graib and more examples.And how many ppl are killed since the US have invaded Iraq? thousands of ppl And if saddam have stead just a few hundred ppl would have died in his secret prisons.So I think the answer is clear |
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| -In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations. -In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites. |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy You have to be kidding me that Saddam Hussein only killed a few hundred in his secret prisons and nationwide. I'm no supporter of this war, but come on. Oh, and America's porn fantasies...I love how everyone likes to take the actions of a few and makes them the actions of all American soldiers. If you would follow our news about how these soldiers were disciplined, you'd realize that the ringleader of that scandal got 10 years in federal prison and 5 others were incarcerated as well. If your "facts" were true, you're right, the answer would be clear, but they're not. Edit: Here are facts Source |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy You have to be kidding me that Saddam Hussein only killed a few hundred in his secret prisons and nationwide. I'm no supporter of this war, but come on. Oh, and America's porn fantasies...I love how everyone likes to take the actions of a few and makes them the actions of all American soldiers. If you would follow our news about how these soldiers were disciplined, you'd realize that the ringleader of that scandal got 10 years in federal prison and 5 others were incarcerated as well. If your "facts" were true, you're right, the answer would be clear, but they're not. Edit: Here are facts Source |
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| Originally posted by Dunya I didn't said that he killed just a few hundreds I mean during this time that the US is occupying Iraq he would just killed a few hundreds comparing to the americanes->how many were killed in just a couple of years thousends that's a record and I didn' talk about the bombs every day who kills 50 ppl almost each day. Oh boy and Abu graib wasn't the only scandle of the US http://www.americanchronicle.com/ar...articleID=11375 And those scandles have terrible impact on America's international image..abu graib,guatanomobay afghanistan they make deals with the zionist to transport all kind of weapons in any situation even in a war against lebanon and I didn't talk about the palestines...and then they are saying that Iran should stop making uranium? Feel sorry for the citizens of the US with a goverment like this. |
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| Originally posted by Kapedan Glad to see your back |
I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?
i]Originally posted by Groundhog Boy [/i]
The argument can be made that long term, the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. That is, if we can end this mess over there sometime soon, which isn't looking likely. To be honest, I didn't like this war from the start and thought it was poorly planned out. I think we're seeing that is true. I'm almost in favor of cutting Iraq up into a couple of democracies so that more people will get the rule that they want. The problem is that the sectarian violence is causing us to stay longer. The country's either on the brink or already begun a civil war. They're killing each other more than the Americans are killing them. I will agree that more Sunnis are dying now than under Saddam, but I don't think we're even coming close to the numbers of Shia or Kurds that would have died had he not been removed.
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| I mean totally iraqies are iraqies shia sunna or kurds, the total numbers of ppl who would have died under saddam would be less more than what's happening now. Actually I do not agree with you the US shouldn't go away and leave the mess. First they should clean up the mess before they go. |
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| Well the most of them are not punished and if tehy have punished 5 years 10 years who is talking about a few years if they did this crime in the USA they would get the death penalty. And what I linked is just an example of many cases. |
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| Open media don't say that 2 hard, all the pics from abu graib was just a fault of one of the soldiers. Your goverment was arguing how this could happen.I see nothing about Qana in the US media. And in some areas in Iraq it's forbidden to take pics because they learned their lessons since Vietnam what the consequences could be for the public opinion.And about the 0.1% that is weak argument because most of the soldiers have a poor background. Most of them from the getto and poor areas. They are scared because they are young and have no experience. And because they are afraid they will shoot much faster than a trained soldier.Your goverment don't care if they are trained or not because they had and still have a shortfall. |
I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?
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| Originally posted by Dunya i]Originally posted by Groundhog Boy [/i] The argument can be made that long term, the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. That is, if we can end this mess over there sometime soon, which isn't looking likely. To be honest, I didn't like this war from the start and thought it was poorly planned out. I think we're seeing that is true. I'm almost in favor of cutting Iraq up into a couple of democracies so that more people will get the rule that they want. The problem is that the sectarian violence is causing us to stay longer. The country's either on the brink or already begun a civil war. They're killing each other more than the Americans are killing them. I will agree that more Sunnis are dying now than under Saddam, but I don't think we're even coming close to the numbers of Shia or Kurds that would have died had he not been removed. I mean totally iraqies are iraqies shia sunna or kurds, the total numbers of ppl who would have died under saddam would be less more than what's happening now. Actually I do not agree with you the US shouldn't go away and leave the mess. First they should clean up the mess before they go. Oh, and believe me, I hate the scandals. I hate how our government continues to make us look bad by not condemning torture and trying to find loopholes around international law. You'll see my past posts in here bitching about that long ago. It disgusts me and I'm glad that the people who were involved were punished. I hope this Haditha incident, if it's found that it was committed in cold blood against civilians, is prosecuted, too. I also have no sympathy for those guys in the story that you linked about the 14 year-old getting raped and killed and I hope they're dealt with severely. Well the most of them are not punished and if tehy have punished 5 years 10 years who is talking about a few years if they did this crime in the USA they would get the death penalty. And what I linked is just an example of many cases. That said, this sort of behavior is only making us look bad because of our open media outlets. In a lot of other countries, this material would never have been leaked out and published or people would be dead. Can you imagine similar photos of torture leaking out under Saddam's rule? Not hardly. It may make us look bad, but at least it isn't hidden, it's punished and hopefully serves as an example to our soldiers of how they will be dealt with if it's done again. There are over 100,000 troops over there, and it pisses most Americans off that this .01% is making the other 99.99% look bad. I have friends from high school who have spent time in Iraq and when this topic was brought up in talking with them, they fully supported disciplining these blights to the fullest extent, because they weren't like that and the overwhelming majority of their fellow soldiers weren't either. Open media don't say that 2 hard, all the pics from abu graib was just a fault of one of the soldiers. Your goverment was arguing how this could happen.I see nothing about Qana in the US media. And in some areas in Iraq it's forbidden to take pics because they learned their lessons since Vietnam what the consequences could be for the public opinion.And about the 0.1% that is weak argument because most of the soldiers have a poor background. Most of them from the getto and poor areas. They are scared because they are young and have no experience. And because they are afraid they will shoot much faster than a trained soldier.Your goverment don't care if they are trained or not because they had and still have a shortfall. I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point? |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point? |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 Then how high do you want it to be? 39,000+ Dead civilians 2500 Coalition casualties |
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| Originally posted by Lomeli I was so close to signing the contract to join the army special forces (green berets), but after reading this thread, it's really opened my eyes about what i'm getting myself into. The main reason i wanted to go was for the training and experience, I never really thought about the war and the escalating problems around the world, at least until now. This thread basically saved me from making the wrong choice. I voted no. The war in Iraq is not worth me risking my life. |
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| HOWEVER! If we are ever to have a war on our home front, which COULD happen, not saying it will, I'll be the first in line to sign up. |
I wouldn't fight a war over stupid motives as for the U.S.'s freedom. I don't recall my freedom ever being threatened by Iraq, so why fight?
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| Originally posted by Lomeli I was so close to signing the contract to join the army special forces (green berets), but after reading this thread, it's really opened my eyes about what i'm getting myself into. The main reason i wanted to go was for the training and experience, I never really thought about the war and the escalating problems around the world, at least until now. |
In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot
Mark Twain
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| August 28, 2006 Two Iraqi units have refused deployment {LINK} By Pamela Hess Members of two Iraqi military units have refused orders to deploy to heavily contested areas, a top U.S. military general said. But the apparent mutinies have been limited to just two units, according to Brig. Gen. Dana Pittard, commander of the Iraq Assistance Group, the force of 3,000 coaltion military and police trainers fanned out across Iraq. The most recent was last week, when about 100 soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, 4th Brigade of the 10th Iraqi Army based in Maysan province, refused orders to deploy to Baghdad as part of Operation Together Forward. Earlier, an unspecified number of Iraqi soldiers from the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Iraqi Army Division refused to deploy from northern Iraq to Ramadi with the American 1st Brigade of the 1st Armored Division. "A number of the members of that unit ended up not deploying down to Ramadi. That's the only other case that I know of like (Maysan)," said Pittard. The Iraqi army is recruited and trained regionally, and generally expects to serve in their own provinces. That is by and large the practice, but in times of crisis -- like the outbreak of violence in Baghdad -- they can in theory be called on to deploy anywhere. The Maysan soldiers did not deploy to Baghdad. "The majority of this particular unit were (Shiite), and they felt, the leadership of that unit and their soldiers, felt like they were needed down there in Maysan in that province. Now, that will be worked out by the Iraqi government and the Ministry of Defense, and we'll be in support in that," he said. "I think it's really too soon to tell as far as what actions are to be taken in that regard. Deployment refusals were more common last year, particularly before violent Anbar province had any serious military force to field on its own, according to U.S. military sources. |
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| Originally posted by David Adams Join the Navy or Air Force. I did 6 years in the Navy and the training and experience was awesome! |
3000
Happy New Year:
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| U.S. Toll In Iraq Reaches 3,000 Deaths in December Highest in Two Years By Nancy Trejos Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, January 1, 2007; A01 BAGHDAD, Dec. 31 -- The number of U.S. service members killed in Iraq since the war began in 2003 reached 3,000 on Sunday, a symbolic milestone at a time when the Bush administration is rethinking its strategy for the increasingly violent conflict. As the year drew to a close, the U.S. military announced that a soldier was killed Saturday by a roadside bomb while on patrol in a southeastern neighborhood of Baghdad. Two soldiers were injured in the attack. Their names were not released. The Defense Department also announced that Spec. Dustin R. Donica, 22, of Spring, Tex., was killed by small-arms fire Thursday in Baghdad. According to the Associated Press and the independent Web site iCasualties.org, both of which keep counts of war fatalities, the deaths raised the American toll to at least 3,000. Reaching that threshold has significance at a time when President Bush is considering a change in strategy that could include sending in more troops. The 140,000 U.S. troops currently in Iraq have not been able to reduce the daily violence caused by an aggressive insurgency in the western province of Anbar and an increasingly bitter sectarian conflict in Baghdad. "What you see is the U.S. deeply involved in this fight against an insurrection and increasingly trying to bring order to a low-level civil war," Anthony H. Cordesman, an analyst for the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said by telephone in Washington. "There's no way you can do that with 140,000 troops in a country of 27 million without having casualties." He added: "This pace of casualties is likely to go on until we can change or find a new approach." The bipartisan Iraq Study Group recommended that the focus of U.S. troops in Iraq be shifted from combat to training Iraqi soldiers and police officers, and that most combat brigades be withdrawn by early 2008. The most recent deaths happened during a particularly costly month of the war. With 111 fatalities, according to iCasualties.org, December was not only the deadliest month of 2006 for U.S. troops, but the deadliest in two years. Most of December's deaths occurred in Anbar province, and most were the result of improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, according to a Washington Post analysis of the data. But insurgents have found other ways to attack troops, among them sniper fire. The number of service members who have been wounded has continued to climb as well. More than 22,000 troops have been injured so far, according to the latest Defense Department data. A Pentagon report in December gave a grim assessment of the war, acknowledging that violence soared to its highest level this fall, with anti-U.S. fighters achieving "strategic success" by unleashing a spiral of sectarian killings by Sunni Arab and Shiite Muslim death squads. According to the report, the violence had reached record highs, with 959 attacks per week. In the United States, public discontent over the war has grown, evidenced by the fact that voters gave Democrats control of the new Congress. Many media outlets and pundits have pointed out that the military death toll in Iraq now exceeds the number of people killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, which Bush has often cited as justification for the war. White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said Bush "believes that every life is precious and grieves for each one that is lost." "He will ensure their sacrifice was not made in vain," Stanzel said. "The war on terror will be a long struggle. We will be fighting violent jihadists for peace and security of the civilized world for years to come." Military leaders played down the significance of reaching 3,000 deaths. "We don't count that way, because each one is important to us," said Lt. Col. Christopher C. Garver, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. "Number 2,999 means the same to us as number 3,000. It's an arbitrary number that doesn't mean anything to us." The Defense Department count of Americans killed in Iraq stood at 2,986 as of Sunday, said a Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Mark Ballesteros. The Pentagon's official count often lags because it does not include a fatality in its official tally until 24 hours after notifying next of kin. The U.S. military in Iraq issues news releases with names withheld before deaths are officially counted. "Let's set aside discussion of numbers," Ballesteros said. "Every loss is regretted, each loss has a value, significance and importance unto itself, regardless of what number anyone would assign." Each death, he said, "is felt individually by that person's family and friends. It's particularly difficult during the holidays." Staff writers Michael Abramowitz in Crawford, Tex., and Elizabeth Williamson in Washington contributed to this report. |
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| 3,000 Dead: So Who's Counting? By Cindy Sheehan t r u t h o u t | Guest Contributor Monday 01 January 2007 Gerald Ford, an incompetent, never-elected past president, is being memorialized today by one of his good buddies and close confidantes, Dastardly Dick. The execution of Saddam Hussein is being celebrated by a bloodthirsty media and another never-elected, execution-happy, incompetent president. Dozens, if not hundreds, more innocent Iraqis were killed today, and more than likely, the 3,000th soldier crossed the threshold from life into the next world. We have seen this movie and heard this song before. As Yogi Berra once said: "It's d�ja vu all over again!" In September 2004, our nation crossed the blood-soaked 1,000-troop line during a heated campaign between someone who actually went to war who was branded a coward, and someone who went AWOL from the military at the same time and was glorified as a tough leader. In October 2005, our inept leaders' policies killed the 2,000th soldier. While I and two dozen others were getting arrested during a "die-in" in front of the White House, MoveOn.org was organizing the second candlelight vigil in little over a year at another 1,000-troop mark. On June 16th, 2006, the 2,500th soldier was pointlessly killed, and White House press spokes-liar Tony Snow said that it was "just a number." As when the Writ of Habeas Corpus was taken away from all of us; when Bloody George added a signing statement to a Senate bill that institutionalized torture, and when yet another criminal against humanity was approved to replace the previous war criminal as Secretary of War, we, en masse, exclaimed, "That's horrible! What can we do to stop these maniacs?!" Then a vast majority of us, numbering in the millions, "shook it off," shrugged our shoulders in defeatist hopelessness and false helplessness, then went about our business of being Americans, disregarding the fact that while we are "being Americans," there are billions of humans on this planet who are not, and millions of humans in Iraq who are being ravaged by the malevolent forces in DC. When the "number" reaches 3,000 today, or tomorrow, another pain-draped coffin will be coming home to a mother whose heart will be forever folded in abject despair, whether she agrees with Bloody George's war or not. Another mother's head will be bowed with grief as the flag that covered her child's coffin is handed to her, after it has been as carefully folded as her child was carelessly sent to war. The father will age 10 years in a few hours, and perhaps a husband or wife will lose a life's companion, or a child will have to endure the pain of losing a mother or father way too early. As I was lying on a freezing-cold floor, dressed in black and white prison stripes in Waco, Texas, the other night, feeling sorry for myself for a minute, I thought of our brave young people in Iraq whom corporate greed has sentenced to a prison of a war that is turning more nightmarish by the minute, and I didn't feel so bad. I thought of the innocent Iraqis who cannot escape from the prison of an occupation that is killing them by the hundreds of thousands every year, and I felt downright fortunate. Then I recalled that Bloody George and his "Holes in the Head" gang were just contemplating sending upwards of 40,000 more troops to Iraq (and, in fact, that was why I was in jail that night), and I got downright terrified. As Bloody BushCo are contemplating escalating the mayhem, I know that many groups and communities are already planning candlelight vigils, which should be held to honor our wonderful and brave young people who have been killed for no reason. However, candlelight vigils will not stop 3,001 or 3,002 - and saints forbid that we will be mourning number 4,000 sometime too soon in the too-near future. Gold Star Families for Peace, as a group and individually, deeply mourn each and every loss, no matter what color the skin or what religion was claimed by the deceased. GSFP strongly abhors and disagrees with any troop "surge," and calls for a new commitment to radical, nonviolent activism through a "peace surge." Do your candlelight vigils. Sing "Give Peace a Chance," and/or "We Shall Overcome." Before the last note has died down, head over go to your Congress rep's office and do a sit-in, and urge your representative to vote "No" on any future funding for killing and "Yes" to accountability for Bloody BushCo. Tell him/her that you are not leaving until he/she agrees to do what you tell them to. Your elected official works for you - not the other way around. Hang signs on freeway overpasses. Support the Military Redress petition which active duty soldiers are organizing. Send money to peace groups and/or progressive media. Come to Washington, DC, and march with us on January 27. Come to Camp Casey at Easter to demonstrate on the president's doorstep. Reduce your dependency on oil and oil-based products. Simplify your life. "Live simply so others may simply live." We all have the dreaded experience of being asked by someone who is not such a close friend, to help them move. I am going to presume to ask you to help me move. Help me move the world closer to peace. Help the countless people working in the vineyard of nonviolence in this move. Sometimes the task is arduous, and we have to sacrifice a great deal; sometimes the move is joyous, and we revel in companionship, love, and the reward of each baby step taken and every small victory celebrated. However, the movement is always sacred and more urgent than ever. 3,000 dead! So who's counting? I can guarantee that there is a dear loved one of a soldier somewhere holding his or breath, praying that the soldier doesn't become "just a number" to Tony Snow or another dollar in the blood bank to the war profiteers. 3,000 dead. I can virtually guarantee who is not counting: Bloody George, who readily admits that he gets a good night's sleep every night, while he has condemned millions of people all over the world to agonizing nights of intensely worried or anguished insomnia. Why should Bloody George lose sleep? War business is booming, and his own children are safely surrounded by the Secret Service. I can never remember a time when peace has been so absent, yet so urgent. Won't you do one thing every day to help prevent the next thousand Americans and next one hundred thousand Iraqis? Please? In Search of Peace is a series of reflections on Cindy's journey toward true and lasting peace. Cindy Sheehan is the mother of Spc. Casey Sheehan, who was killed in Bush's war of terror on 04/04/04. She is the co-founder and president of Gold Star Families for Peace and the Camp Casey Peace Institute. She is the author of three books; the most recent is Peace Mom: A Mother's Journey Through Heartache to Activism. |
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