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-- [Politics] Has John Howard done a good job?
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Originally posted by narcism no it doesnt because the people living on that island probably dont have running water either.

well....but....hey look over there!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im a constant disappointment.

i still love you <3

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Originally posted by quineska No he hasn't completely lost it. John Howard is fully aware of what he's doing. In many respects, this is what he want's to be remembered for. I guess it's a life-long obsession, and nothing will stand in his way, not even Barnaby Joyce (the National's senator who holds balance of power in the Senate) or a dissenting public. Hence the associated "information campaign" will probably stay with us well after the legislation is passed (whether or not it changes people's minds).

I don't mean he's lost it in the sence that he's lost his original goals. I mean he has completely lost it in relation to what the general public are willing to accept. If these laws get passed, the liberal party will be voted out. There is no doubt about that, all the other issues; children overboard, immigration department etc, people don't care about (totally selfish if you ask me), because it doesn't effect them personally. These laws will effect everyone, or everyones children.

i can understand why the refugees are detained until they can have their applications processed, what I cannot understand is why this takes so long to do. To keep so many people locked up for so long must cost more than it does to employ people to speed up the processing.
Why not focus on these applications? I can see how 7 levels of appeal can take time, and if you get told no 5 times and still keep appealing you don't have too much to complain about if it takes a while.
Does anyone have any statistics on what % get rejected at stage 1, but then approved on subsequent levels of appeal that drag on for years?

as for them getting away from danger in their own countries, aren't they well clear of that danger by the time they reach indonesia? There are refugee camps there that hold people until they get a placement under refugee quotas for many countries. Are the people waiting in those camps to wait further down the queue due to others taking the extra step to force their way into australia?

I think if ppl want to come here ilegally then they can wait as long as we take!

Ppl from just as bad a situation wait years in the crappy countries they are trying to flee but do the right thing and go through our process legally.

Are u really saying the nobs that come here ilegally should be fast tracked becuase they are already here rather then put to the back of the que for those that are still in the places they are trying to leave because they observed our laws?

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Originally posted by lorderan There is no doubt about that, all the other issues; children overboard, immigration department etc, people don't care about (totally selfish if you ask me), because it doesn't effect them personally. These laws will effect everyone, or everyones children.

Spot on lorderan.

Australian's have got what was coming to them imho. I'm now going to live in hope that radical changes such as this that directly affect people in a negative way, will unite Australian's again, and get rid of the selfishness and superficial qualities that have crept into our society.

There are more important things in life than how much a repayment is on the McMansion.

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Originally posted by queen_vee There are more important things in life than how much a repayment is on the McMansion.

You would both be surprised as to where the real money comes from that does go to the charities and community projects ......BIG COMPANIES!!

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You would both be surprised as to where the real money comes from that does go to the charities and community projects ......BIG COMPANIES!!

yes that is because it is a tax write off

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Originally posted by Teflon_Teapot yes that is because it is a tax write off

Good for PR to


Im not saying they do it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts, but the fact is if they dont make money they dont exist, if they dont exist there are alot of people much worse off.

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Im not saying they do it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts, but the fact is if they dont make money they dont exist, if they dont exist there are alot of people much worse off.

hmmmm very interesting thought, although some would argue that because of their existence more people are much worse off

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Originally posted by Teflon_Teapot hmmmm very interesting thought, although some would argue that because of their existence more people are much worse off

mate, if there weren't banks we couldnt buy houses, if there wasnt insurance companies we couldnt recover from a major loss, if there weren't oil companies we would have no transport and every thing we do/use in our everyday lives would be affected.

Fact is, whilst we all like to cry "woe is me" these companies make all our of lives ALOT easier, as i said if they didnt generate a profit they wouldnt exist and we would have none of the very basic examples above.

I am a major capitalist, you should have the opportunity to achieve whatever you like as long as you do it ethically; but i also believe when you are in a good position you should be more obliged to be more charitable.

lets hope you remember that when Obsession is the biggest thing since Paris Hilton getting married!!

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Originally posted by batemanscott I am a major capitalist, you should have the opportunity to achieve whatever you like

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Originally posted by batemanscott as long as you do it ethically;

ahhh, thats too funny

seriously tho, i do take your point and to a small extent i agree with you. but it depends on what you call \"ethical\". many many businesses make money thru entirely legal means that i wouldnt consider ethical. bank fees are a perfect example. insurance companies the world over are renowned for going to extremes to avoid paying customers their just desserts. thats not illegal either. oil & mining companies often rape their surrounding land to extract their profits. again, nothing illegal. ridiculously profitable companies sack more and more workers so that their stock can move up a fraction of a point. etc etc etc.

i dont agree with bashing companies blindly or for the sake of it. however i find it hard to see how many of the massive corporations dont have their hands dirty somewhere along the line. business is business, and its a fvcking tough world out there; it leads to decisions that (imo) are thoroughly unethical and downright callous.

your absolutely right PKC.. but thats where we come back to QueenVees comments about worrying only about ourselves...

the companies doing these things can safely say, well if we dont do it then someon else will be right there to take our place in doing it and will get ahead, so it may as well be us.

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Originally posted by 00soups00 your absolutely right PKC.. but thats where we come back to QueenVees comments about worrying only about ourselves...

well, i guess ill have to keep being one of the few voters that still votes ideologically instead of what i consider might be for me.

There is nothing "illegal" about coming to Australia to claim asylum - under the Geneva convention, Australia is obliged to accept them.

Sure, there should be due process to determine if they are legitimate refugees, but is locking them up for a few years in the desert the answer? I don't think so.

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Originally posted by batemanscott I think if ppl want to come here ilegally then they can wait as long as we take! Ppl from just as bad a situation wait years in the crappy countries they are trying to flee but do the right thing and go through our process legally. Are u really saying the nobs that come here ilegally should be fast tracked becuase they are already here rather then put to the back of the que for those that are still in the places they are trying to leave because they observed our laws?

Just to say it again because it seems to be a hard message to get across, but it is not illegal to seek asylum .Therefore I think we should pay our fellow human beings [another idea that's hard to get across] the curtesy of calling them asylum seekers rather than illegal.

I don't believe any one of us has enough knowledge of these people's circumstances to say if it was safe for them to stay or they had to run. Whatever they were, they had a basic human right to be treated with respect until such time as they were found to have broken our laws. It is safe to say that there are countries which don't have access to our so called queues.

The vast majority of asylum seekers have been found to be genuine refugees and some of those that weren't were iraqis who were deemed to be no longer refugees because Saddam had been removed. Some we have deported have vanished and others have been found to be genuine after we sent them back.

Four years after we dumped all those fellow human beings on hellhole Nauru nearly all of them have been assessed as genuine. And no, a roof over your head and barely enough crappy food to eat is not a life.That the people on Nauru have it tough is no excuse for Australia to threat people like shit . We should as civilised people know better. New Zealand tooks months to work out these people were genuine. It took us years because they were very convenient politically to John Howard.

But hey ,what the fuck, we deport our own citizens

Make room on that high hose for me pkc

btw All of that I have said is easily obtained information [daily papers , tv news etc] if you are interested in getting to the truth.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ^^ im not totally sure, but those under AWAs arent going to get the benefits of minimum wage increase (this is an assumption, i dont know for sure, wheres renegade?). so how does a person on a \"bargained\" award keep up with things like inflation etc?

No fvcking way will they get increases. I believe the advertising mentions that wages have increased under Howard? Of course they have increased, but measured against inflation they have actually gone down. Howard has fought bitterly against every minimum wage increase since he came to power.

Here you go Narcism:

The Lancet May 2001
Dr Annie Sparrow, physician working in Woomera Detention Centre:

'There are no facilities and there are not any services provided to actually support the refugees either medically or psychologically, or in recreation, and this all has a very profound effect on their medical and physical health.'

'The food and quarters at the centre are of poor quality and I have never seen so many children who are depressed and traumatised by the environment. I saw a 16-year-old who attempted to hang himself, I saw a 14-year-old girl who cut her wrists and I saw another 14-year-old boy who tried to choke himself.'

AMA media release 3 August 2001 and media release 25 November 2001
Dr Bebe Loff, Department of Epidemiology and Preventive Medicine at Monash University:

'Detention is the most draconian punishment known to most liberal democratic societies. To incarcerate a person for an indefinite period when they committed no crime is difficult to justify under any circumstances. Australia places many asylum seekers, most of whom have suffered past trauma, including torture, in open-ended terms of detention. Terms of four years are not uncommon.'



I suppose you think it acceptable to be locked up for 9 years (longer than many murderers) and without any knowledge, or even an idea of when you might get out? At least one poor bastard was.

Look up the Bakhtyari family, where the government had documents forged so that they would look like complete idiots, and could kick them out at midnight after the tsunamis while no one was looking. Taking children from their beds - wetting themselves because they were'nt allowed to go to the toilet. All perfectly civilised behaviour?


90 odd % of these people are proved to be running from some pretty fvcking harsh conditions, sometimes that we helped create! I can't believe the unwillingness of people to have any compassion for other human beings....


AKA - I sincerely hope Howard goes down as the absolute worst, most inhumane PM ever, and I hope it all happens while he's still alive to see it - before he dies from something painful and slow

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Originally posted by tubby as for them getting away from danger in their own countries, aren't they well clear of that danger by the time they reach indonesia? There are refugee camps there that hold people until they get a placement under refugee quotas for many countries.

yes that is true, and i think why not stay there? you are out of danger? but if they try to make a better life or go for one more better then i dont think the way they are held while waiting to be processed is fair.

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Originally posted by batemanscott Are u really saying the nobs that come here ilegally should be fast tracked becuase they are already here rather then put to the back of the que for those that are still in the places they are trying to leave because they observed our laws?

i don't think anyone is saying that, what we are saying is that when they get here i don't think the conditions they are placed in are "right" by any standards.

is there a link or anything to the new workplace reforms? so u can see what they are?

https://www.workchoices.gov.au/NR/r...t_document2.pdf

go to page 15 and read the example of Billy -

this is where we're headed people

btw - apparently the 38 hour week is averaged out over the whole year - say hello to working a few 60 hours a week, including weekends, with no overtime! on a public holiday! with no friggin breaks!

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Originally posted by Tweak https://www.workchoices.gov.au/NR/r...t_document2.pdf go to page 15 and read the example of Billy - this is where we're headed people btw - apparently the 38 hour week is averaged out over the whole year - say hello to working a few 60 hours a week, including weekends, with no overtime! on a public holiday! with no friggin breaks!

This isn't the actually proposed legislation, this is the propaganda booklet. It's unbelievable that they think they're doing the right thing by Billy.

The actual proposed legislation is not available to us .

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Originally posted by batemanscott mate, if there weren't banks we couldnt buy houses, if there wasnt insurance companies we couldnt recover from a major loss, if there weren't oil companies we would have no transport and every thing we do/use in our everyday lives would be affected. Fact is, whilst we all like to cry "woe is me" these companies make all our of lives ALOT easier, as i said if they didnt generate a profit they wouldnt exist and we would have none of the very basic examples above. I am a major capitalist, you should have the opportunity to achieve whatever you like as long as you do it ethically; but i also believe when you are in a good position you should be more obliged to be more charitable.

if there were no oil companies there wouldn't be transport? have you heard of the bicycle? or using your legs?

so when my dad gets sacked after 16 years because some dickhead suit higher up in the chain fucks up its ok, because big companies make our lives easier? and now they don't have to pay him and the other loyal people who get screwed they can make more profits?

why couldnt we buy houses if there was no banks? people can dig a hole in their backyard, and i bet there aren't any digging fees! if there were no banks there would be less crime (nowhere to rob), less time wasted standing in queues, no stupid fees.



two of the above comments are possibly made in jest.

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Originally posted by batemanscott Fact is, whilst we all like to cry "woe is me" these companies make all our of lives ALOT easier, as i said if they didnt generate a profit they wouldnt exist and we would have none of the very basic examples above.

But without us they dont exist, simple; two way street imo.

Any government that tries to minimise gypsies entering our country has my vote.


Too many people expect a free ride in this world thats the problem. Higher education is expensive, you expect the government to pay for everything in your life? Were a country full of handouts, and now were cutting that down everyones whingeing, because all of a sudden the handouts have stopped...

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Originally posted by Paulie Any government that tries to minimise gypsies entering our country has my vote.

yeah, i cant believe there are people that arent content with living in war-torn countries, full of mass murder, torture and poverty.

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Originally posted by Paulie Too many people expect a free ride in this world thats the problem. Higher education is expensive, you expect the government to pay for everything in your life? Were a country full of handouts, and now were cutting that down everyones whingeing, because all of a sudden the handouts have stopped...

totally. theres no way in the world that education (the great liberal democratic equaliser) should be equally available to all people. damn i wish we were more like america

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